Crown

Board: Other Sports Cars Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Jean said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Its been said over and over that nobody is dennying that "a" Nissan GT-R clocked 7:29 on the ring, what people who have read and compared ring lap times over the years doubt is that that specific GT-R was in full customer-spec form since we all know what specifications a customer-spec GT-R has. But nobody (believers and non-believers) except Nissan know under what conditions was that GT-R that did the 7:29 in.
    When HvS tests it we will get a better picture, until then, beliving in factory claims, espècially if they are a little outrageous and forma company that has lied in ring times before) is a little naive IMO.



    Dear Carlos,

    You are basically saying that you cannot believe the words of GT-R developer that he insisted on using the 'customer spec' car in achieving 7:29, right? If so, the argument is still the same as to whether we should believe the Nissan's claim as opposed to Porsches. Porsche made claims and HvS did not deliver in certain cases. Knocking off Nissan's claim just because it comes from Nissan while believing everything Porsche claims is unfair, I think.



    It would be great if you guys would learn a bit about the discussion culture on Rennteam. We never believe in factory claims, neither from Nissan nor from Porsche. A little search on the 997TT/HvS topic would show you that 100% clearly. A valid benchmark figure can never be delivered by the OEM- These figures are fake figures in 50%+ of the time. This applies to Nissan as well as to Porsche.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, you are totally missing the point. The issue is NOT having one constant in determining a sport cars performance but rather what is the capability of that car.

    By your own admission and others, HvS CANNOT with his abilities extract the best out of a car. So when he does the Ring in 7.40 or whatever it is not indicative of what the car can do. WR in Porsche's and Steve Mullen in Corvette's can and do get the most out of their respective cars.

    So when the times are posted by HvS in SportAuto all they are is what he can do in each car and clearly based on test results no where near what the car is capable of.

    Do you see my point now?



    Interesting that successful lawyers are gullible enough to believe in OEM claimed marketing figures and prefer distorted, sales oriented information to the findings of independant magazines.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Dock (Atlanta) said:
    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    AFAIK HvS does flying laps and also start and stop in those same two points.



    And Porsche (WR)?



    The Porsche figures are the outcome of the same (i.e. SportAuto) test procedure. Thus, Porsche (WR) and SportAuto lap times are comparable.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, you are totally missing the point. The issue is NOT having one constant in determining a sport cars performance but rather what is the capability of that car.

    By your own admission and others, HvS CANNOT with his abilities extract the best out of a car. So when he does the Ring in 7.40 or whatever it is not indicative of what the car can do. WR in Porsche's and Steve Mullen in Corvette's can and do get the most out of their respective cars.

    So when the times are posted by HvS in SportAuto all they are is what he can do in each car and clearly based on test results no where near what the car is capable of.

    Do you see my point now?



    Interesting that successful lawyers are gullible enough to believe in OEM claimed marketing figures and prefer distorted, sales oriented information to the findings of independant magazines.



    Unfortunately, the culture on Rennteam is to accept only one magazine result with only one driver. How does that square with objectivity?

    FWIW, here in the US if a manufacturer lies about a car performance we offer the consumer relief by way of litigation and damages. Additionally, our federal government will prosecute for fraud and misrepresentation.

    Thus, a statement of fact like Nissan stating that a stock GT-R turned 7.29 at the Ring and subsequently used in the US to sell cars could be actionable.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Nick,
    Do you truly belive that Suzuki can repeat 7.29min in LHD German specs GT-R?

    Do you understand that if could not do that what could be the end result for Nissan(marketing department)?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Unfortunately, the culture on Rennteam is to accept only one magazine result with only one driver. How does that square with objectivity?

    FWIW, here in the US if a manufacturer lies about a car performance we offer the consumer relief by way of litigation and damages. Additionally, our federal government will prosecute for fraud and misrepresentation.

    Thus, a statement of fact like Nissan stating that a stock GT-R turned 7.29 at the Ring and subsequently used in the US to sell cars could be actionable.



    What recourse do you have when the federal government lies to you?

    Does anyone know what Nissan's claim actually states? How creative were they in the wording?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Nick,
    Do you truly belive that Suzuki can repeat 7.29min in LHD German specs GT-R?

    Do you understand that if could not do that what could be the end result for Nissan(marketing department)?



    Kreso, I suspect we will never see Susuki make another timed run. If you were Nissan would you allow him to try to beat the 7.29 time achieved while being videoed?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Nick,
    Do you truly belive that Suzuki can repeat 7.29min in LHD German specs GT-R?

    Do you understand that if could not do that what could be the end result for Nissan(marketing department)?



    Kreso, I suspect we will never see Susuki make another timed run. If you were Nissan would you allow him to try to beat the 7.29 time achieved while being videoed?



    I would! Why NOT if he can beat 7.29min with German specs LHD car....

    BUT, you and I know it is NOT possible to beat this time since German specs LHD car have some items that were missing on Suzuki car-Navi, Leather seats, Disconnected AC etc. According to my Motorpresse friend HvS saw Suzuki's test mule and confirmed that these items were missing. In the other words Suzuki's car was around 50kg(at least) lighter then normal EU specs GT-R...

    Nick, buy GT-R for yourself.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Plus Suzuki obviously cheated by having less body weight than Europeans.

    The GTR by all independent tests has beaten the 997 GT3 and Turbo (and most of the world's best cars) on various tracks and back roads. This is what really matters.

    The official HvS time next year will be interesting but will be too late to be very relevant. By that time the supremacy of the GTR will be well documented and independently verified.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, you are totally missing the point. The issue is NOT having one constant in determining a sport cars performance but rather what is the capability of that car.

    By your own admission and others, HvS CANNOT with his abilities extract the best out of a car. So when he does the Ring in 7.40 or whatever it is not indicative of what the car can do. WR in Porsche's and Steve Mullen in Corvette's can and do get the most out of their respective cars.

    So when the times are posted by HvS in SportAuto all they are is what he can do in each car and clearly based on test results no where near what the car is capable of.

    Do you see my point now?



    Interesting that successful lawyers are gullible enough to believe in OEM claimed marketing figures and prefer distorted, sales oriented information to the findings of independant magazines.



    Unfortunately, the culture on Rennteam is to accept only one magazine result with only one driver. How does that square with objectivity?

    FWIW, here in the US if a manufacturer lies about a car performance we offer the consumer relief by way of litigation and damages. Additionally, our federal government will prosecute for fraud and misrepresentation.

    Thus, a statement of fact like Nissan stating that a stock GT-R turned 7.29 at the Ring and subsequently used in the US to sell cars could be actionable.



    We rate the SportAuto Supertest that high as there is no similarly comprehensive sports car test available in any other magazine. Sportauto does pretty comprehensive test statistics (HHR, NBR, aerodynamics, wet handling, etc. etc.) and all tests are done under similar conditions (key parameters like temperature etc. are stated in each test) and by the same driver. Certainly, the driver is getting older (as all of us). However, if HvS tests the GT2 and the Scuderia now and the GTR in 6 months or so that should not make much of a difference...

    If you will sue Nissan for cheating its customers many of us might support your efforts

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Plus Suzuki obviously cheated by having less body weight than Europeans.

    The GTR by all independent tests has beaten the 997 GT3 and Turbo (and most of the world's best cars) on various tracks and back roads. This is what really matters.

    The official HvS time next year will be interesting but will be too late to be very relevant. By that time the supremacy of the GTR will be well documented and independently verified.



    I don't believe the claims (I believe the time, but not that the car was in stock trim). That being said, this will put pressure on other manufacturers to up the ante. I have no doubt that the GT-R is faster around the track than a 997TT, but such a heavy car can't be that fast in my mind (no matter who builds it).

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The GTR by all independent tests has beaten the 997 GT3 and Turbo (and most of the world's best cars) on various tracks and back roads. This is what really matters.




    Not quite... Just look at the latest US magazine test (first test of a customer car, if I am not wrong). The 997TT was significantly quicker in terms of acceleration (tested only up to 220kph). Also, the GTR was just 1s faster on their rather short test track despite the 997TT being equipped with PS2 tires... Thus, the GTR (customer car...) would most likely not have been quicker than the 997TT on Cup tires at all...

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Nick,

    Let me ask you directly. Do you believe that a TRULY stock, available to consumer from showroom floor GTR was utilized to achieve the 7:29 by Suzuki? That he could walk into any dealership pick up the car, drive to the Ring and then bang that time out?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Jean said:
    Dear Carlos,

    You are basically saying that you cannot believe the words of GT-R developer that he insisted on using the 'customer spec' car in achieving 7:29, right? If so, the argument is still the same as to whether we should believe the Nissan's claim as opposed to Porsches. Porsche made claims and HvS did not deliver in certain cases. Knocking off Nissan's claim just because it comes from Nissan while believing everything Porsche claims is unfair, I think.



    Who says I believe everything Porsche claims?
    In relation to ring times I will not believe lap times posted by any maker's marketing department, any maker, including Porsche. Some lap times are more believable than others and you may hold to be mayber closer to the truth but the ONLY lap times I will use for comparison are HvS, and even not literally, you still have to take into account certain factors like tires, track conditions, etc in the equation.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    The GTR by all independent tests has beaten the 997 GT3 and Turbo (and most of the world's best cars) on various tracks and back roads. This is what really matters.




    Not quite... Just look at the latest US magazine test (first test of a customer car, if I am not wrong). The 997TT was significantly quicker in terms of acceleration (tested only up to 220kph). Also, the GTR was just 1s faster on their rather short test track despite the 997TT being equipped with PS2 tires... Thus, the GTR (customer car...) would most likely not have been quicker than the 997TT on Cup tires at all...



    Afaik, it was an abused press car (7000kms of launch controls, heavy foot driving ...) , hence in bad shape as they claimed, hence the times.

    However, the US spec GT-R isnt as fast as the japanese one. (edmunds test seems to prove it). Mainly because of fuel. The GT-R likes japanese or european RON100+.

    Lets wait for european tests.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, you are totally missing the point. The issue is NOT having one constant in determining a sport cars performance but rather what is the capability of that car.

    By your own admission and others, HvS CANNOT with his abilities extract the best out of a car. So when he does the Ring in 7.40 or whatever it is not indicative of what the car can do. WR in Porsche's and Steve Mullen in Corvette's can and do get the most out of their respective cars.

    So when the times are posted by HvS in SportAuto all they are is what he can do in each car and clearly based on test results no where near what the car is capable of.

    Do you see my point now?



    Nick, I am not missing your point, I know exactly what your point is and that is why I'm dumbstruck that you still hold it. One last time for you:

    (1) the factory's absolute best time a car can do at the ring is irrelevant and useless if you cannot compare it to the other car's factory absolute times or indepentant tester's best times.

    (2) why can't you can't compare them? because they are not achieved following the same testing procedures (driver abilities, conditions, tires, vested interest by the company in bumping up the lap time, ect)

    (3) HvS and his team cannot provide the absolute best posible lap time in the universe (in part because they don't get paid by manufacturer to "fabricate" a shinnig result by altering car, procedures, etc) yet he provides the best comparison value for each car because his test gives the most consistent lap times in relation to the other cars.

    (4) why if he is not the fastest in the universe can he provide the best lap times for comparison? because his testing procedures are the most consistent with all the cars (driver, conditions, procedure, independant, etc).

    (5) If you still didn't get it here is an example. If car X is 10% slower in HvS's hands that its absolute best time it can achieve, car Y he tests will also be 10% slower, so in the end you are able to compare. If car X is 20% faster than car Y then you will still know it even if driver/test did not obtain 100% maximum results. Yet factory times for car X may be 10% above the real fastest time for the car, and car Y's factory claim may be 40% above, thefore useless for comparison.

    This is basic empirical testing 101 Nick, if you didn't get it yet then "forgetaboutit"

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Nick,
    Do you truly belive that Suzuki can repeat 7.29min in LHD German specs GT-R?

    Do you understand that if could not do that what could be the end result for Nissan(marketing department)?



    Kreso, I suspect we will never see Susuki make another timed run. If you were Nissan would you allow him to try to beat the 7.29 time achieved while being videoed?



    I would! Why NOT if he can beat 7.29min with German specs LHD car....

    BUT, you and I know it is NOT possible to beat this time since German specs LHD car have some items that were missing on Suzuki car-Navi, Leather seats, Disconnected AC etc. According to my Motorpresse friend HvS saw Suzuki's test mule and confirmed that these items were missing. In the other words Suzuki's car was around 50kg(at least) lighter then normal EU specs GT-R...

    Nick, buy GT-R for yourself.



    I don't know whether you can order a GT-R without leather seats and navigation. Also, you could always buy a stock GT-R and make it lighter.

    I tried to buy a GT-R but the salesperson did not know enough about it and like most danced around availability. Had they had one on the lot, I would have written a check regardless of color or options. What I will not do is pay a premium for the car.

    I do not mean to denigrate SportAuto. I am sure it is a very reputable magazine. That said, like everything else in this world nothing is perfect. What SportAuto has to say about their test of a car is ONLY one consideration in determining the car performance. By no means should it be the definitive word on the matter.

    As many of us have stated, by the time SportAuto test the GT-R, it will be very old news and dubious in relevancy.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Not a old news for us Europeans since your precious Godzilla will be here on sale in one year time!

    What Nissan want here in Europe is to sell as much GT-R as possible without providing a single reliable test of EU specs GT-R.

    Just its CO2 emissions is telling us something-400g/km... Way too much for 2009... For comparison Ferrari California GT is with 310g/km much more politically correct car then Godzilla...

    BTW Nick, if you truly want GT-R you could find a way to buy one, don't you?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Carlos, thank you for your comprehensive explanation. I was well aware of your position. Would you agree to the following statement?

    "SportAuto tests are valuable in that they provide a comparison of performance cars under strict conditions but are not indicative of the full potential of the cars being tested."

    I suspect SportAuto would agree with it.

    Kreso, the calls I have made all want a premium over MSRP. NO way will I agree with that.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Sure nick, nobody says that HvS are the fastest lap time a car can ever achieve.
    Its just that the fastest lap time "theoretically" achievable can never be comparable to any other car's lap time so its a useless bit of information, and certainly the factory lap times are cannot be regarded as that fastest not are they reliable either, so they are even less usefull.

    If the ring lap times tells you something about a car's real world performance, it can only be in comparison to other car's lap times, thats why only HvS are the closest to being relevant.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Carlos, thank you for your comprehensive explanation. I was well aware of your position. Would you agree to the following statement?

    "SportAuto tests are valuable in that they provide a comparison of performance cars under strict conditions but are not indicative of the full potential of the cars being tested."

    I suspect SportAuto would agree with it.




    Nick thats just silly, because the factory driver probably is not the best driver in the world either, give Schumie or some other young professional enough seat time and they would probably beat HvS and WR as well. So factory time is not "full potential either". You yourself have argued this position before.

    Now, back to my question, do you think the 7:29 was a truly stock car?

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Its been said over and over that nobody is dennying that "a" Nissan GT-R clocked 7:29 on the ring, what people who have read and compared ring lap times over the years doubt is that that specific GT-R was in full customer-spec form since we all know what specifications a customer-spec GT-R has. But nobody (believers and non-believers) except Nissan know under what conditions was that GT-R that did the 7:29 in.
    When HvS tests it we will get a better picture, until then, beliving in factory claims, espècially if they are a little outrageous and forma company that has lied in ring times before) is a little naive IMO.



    Spot on, Carlos. The short answer to your question if Nick sees your point, now or ever, on this variable vs. constant driver is "no, he doesn't" and unfortunately, never will. Maybe his tactics & desire to argue which are good for lawyering and the twisting of evidentiary facts to bolster his court case, spill over to this forum.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Sure nick, nobody says that HvS are the fastest lap time a car can ever achieve.
    Its just that the fastest lap time "theoretically" achievable can never be comparable to any other car's lap time so its a useless bit of information, and certainly the factory lap times are cannot be regarded as that fastest not are they reliable either, so they are even less usefull.

    If the ring lap times tells you something about a car's real world performance, it can only be in comparison to other car's lap times, thats why only HvS are the closest to being relevant.



    It's the "theoretically" part that makes that point of view useless since one could always speculate that any given car in the hands of the next Ayrton Senna or L. Hamilton could kick the butt of another given car/driver combination and I'm not about to put myself in the same league as a Senna or Hamilton. Thus for me, and I suspect for most others on this board, it makes more sense to say to yourself, "which car offers the best performance with ME as the driver?" And to answer that, it's crucial that the ONLY variable when comparing track times and overall performance is the driver. That way, when I unplug the CONSTANT test driver from the performance/track time equation and then plug ME into the driver seat, I can be relatively certain that whatever the difference in laptimes HvS got in one car vs. another car, I can be assured that I would obtain the SAME results. I.E. if HvS is 2 seconds per lap quicker in Car X vs. Car Y, I would also be 2 seconds per lap quicker in Car X vs. Car Y. To debate an entire driver/car combo vs. a completely different driver/car combo is completely pointless to me.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Spot on, Carlos. The short answer to your question if Nick sees your point, now or ever, on this variable vs. constant driver is "no, he doesn't" and unfortunately, never will. Maybe his tactics & desire to argue which are good for lawyering and the twisting of evidentiary facts to bolster his court case, spill over to this forum.



    In fact that must have been his primary intentions right from the beginning.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Sure nick, nobody says that HvS are the fastest lap time a car can ever achieve.
    Its just that the fastest lap time "theoretically" achievable can never be comparable to any other car's lap time so its a useless bit of information, and certainly the factory lap times are cannot be regarded as that fastest not are they reliable either, so they are even less usefull.

    If the ring lap times tells you something about a car's real world performance, it can only be in comparison to other car's lap times, thats why only HvS are the closest to being relevant.



    Another question.

    "Does the fact that a SportAuto test finds one car a few seconds faster than another on the Ring prove that the car with the faster time is faster around the Ring?"

    Here again I don't believe SportAuto would claim that.

    Thuggy, if the stock configuration of the GT-R could include seats that are not leather and no navigation system then yes I believe the car was stock.

    BTW, in the scheme of things on the Ring would 75lbs make a huge difference?

    Jeff glad to see your back. Please do not lose sight of the fact we are arguing about a piece of metal and nothing more. No need to personalize any point.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Another question.

    "Does the fact that a SportAuto test finds one car a few seconds faster than another on the Ring prove that the car with the faster time is faster around the Ring?"



    Who is talking about "absolute proof"? you are deliberately side stepping.

    It gives the best insight available to that effect, and the last place you want to look for that insight is in factory propagandistic laptimes, no matter what make, factory times are for the press to have a nice headline and for suckers.

    Here again I think SportAuto would agree with that

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Carlos, it is as I always believed. You cannot trust any of these sources. However, it does make for good reading and chat site discussions.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    You can buy a GT-R in base spec that has no nav or leather in Japan.

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    really sorry about this stupid question...

    WHOS HvS?? i can imagine is a nice driver but only for this letters i dont know

    Re: Video of GT-R's 7:29 lap of 'Ring

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Jeff glad to see your back. Please do not lose sight of the fact we are arguing about a piece of metal and nothing more. No need to personalize any point.



    Thanks for the welcome and I'm not trying to make it personal, per se, however since it seemed Carlos was directing his question to you specifically, I thought it appropriate to focus my response a bit more in your direction. Fair? I haven't noticed any other people disputing the validity of the "Driver As A Constant" method as much as you have but if they exist, I suppose they'll chime in here.....

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    776814 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    441560 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    262698 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    260842 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85113 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5519 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    880555 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    815709 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    390850 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    389870 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    372093 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    368848 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289070 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261210 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240062 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    230196 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221139 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169118 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    140931 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    117393 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    108528 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84095 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75033 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    53594 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    24967 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21165 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19483 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16579 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13676 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11244 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.