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    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    denn said:

    I believe the CCR has 655HP/1000kg and the CGT 438HP/1000kg, and still the CGT is faster despite the 50% difference.



    CCR 817 PS/1180kg & CGT 612PS/1380kg. 438HP?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    denn said:

    I believe the CCR has 655HP/1000kg and the CGT 438HP/1000kg, and still the CGT is faster despite the 50% difference.



    CCR 817 PS/1180kg & CGT 612PS/1380kg. 438HP?



    817PS/1180kg => 692PS/t
    612PS/1380kg => 443PS/t

    Sorry, my power or weight figures must have been off. But anyway, the result is the same, the CCR has 56% more power per kg.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    It might have more power but it's being able to put all that power down to the tarmac that's important. Didn't the CCX/CCR undergo some design changes when "the Stig" lost control on a bend due to lack of downforce?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    ResB said:
    It might have more power but it's being able to put all that power down to the tarmac that's important. Didn't the CCX/CCR undergo some design changes when "the Stig" lost control on a bend due to lack of downforce?



    Yeah. Konig(whatever) fit a wing on the back because it had no down force and couldn't carry speed through a corner. After they put the wing on it went around the Top Gear track much quicker.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    denn said:
    Sorry, my power or weight figures must have been off. But anyway, the result is the same, the CCR has 56% more power per kg.



    My bad, you were quoting per ton, I read it as the CGT weighed a 1000kg.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Quote:
    denn said:
    Sorry, my power or weight figures must have been off. But anyway, the result is the same, the CCR has 56% more power per kg.



    My bad, you were quoting per ton, I read it as the CGT weighed a 1000kg.



    Me too.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    JoeRockhead said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:

    Also isnt the factory claim for the 997 Turbo 7:40 and HvS at 7:54?



    Motortrend apparently got the 997TT around the 'ring in 7:40.

    The is funny, I didn't know the F430 did so poorly! Only 1 second faster than a 996TT, and 4 seconds faster than a 997S... no wonder nberry is so bitter:

    Radical SR8 6:55
    Porsche 996 GT2 modified 7:16
    Carrera GT (Rohl) 7:28
    Carrera GT (Sport Auto) 7:32
    Pagani Zonda F (Sport Auto) 7:33
    Koenigsegg CCR (Sport Auto) 7:34
    Mclaren Mercedes SLR (Autobild) 7:40
    Porsche 997 Turbo (Motortrend) 7:40
    Ford GT (Octane magazine) 7:42
    C6 Corvette Z06 7:43
    Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar) 7:43.5
    Pagani Zonda S (Sport Auto) 7:44
    Porsche 996 GT2 (Sport Auto) 7:46
    Porsche 997 GT3 7:46
    Porsche 996 GT3RS (Sport Auto) 7:47
    Audi RS4 V8(Sport Auto) 7:49
    BMW E46 M3 CSL (Sport Auto) 7:50
    Ford GT (Sport Auto) 7:52
    Lamborghini Gallardo (Sport Auto) 7:52
    Ferrari F430 (Sport Auto) 7:55
    Porsche 996GT3 (Rohl) 7:56
    Porsche 996 Turbo (Sport Auto) 7:56
    Audi RS4 V8 (Frank Stippler) 7:58
    Porsche 997S (Rohl) 7:59
    Aston Martin V8 Vantage (Sport Auto) 8:03
    Lamborghini Diablo GT (Sport Auto) 8:04
    Porsche 997 Carrera S (Sport Auto) 8:05



    Yeah but before all you have to put the all time record of the Ring is 6.11 done by the 956 and in 1983!!!!!

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Audi RS4 V8 (Sport Auto) 7:49

    **** Any details ?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    ed_moree said:

    Yeah but before all you have to put the all time record of the Ring is 6.11 done by the 956 and in 1983!!!!!



    And very soon Nissan is gonna claim the GT-R beat that too with a few mods to the car.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Audi RS4 V8 (Sport Auto) 7:49

    **** Any details ?



    Stock or MTM RS4 Clubsport Leistung 540?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Audi RS4 V8 (Sport Auto) 7:49

    **** Any details ?



    Stock or MTM RS4 Clubsport Leistung 540?



    Neither. Just a typo...

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    ed_moree said:

    Yeah but before all you have to put the all time record of the Ring is 6.11 done by the 956 and in 1983!!!!!



    The list does not include prototype cars.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    The peak and average lateral G figures achieved by Nissan suggest Dunlop are the ones we should be praising for this surreal lap.


    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Sorry if these EVO laptimes at Bedford are a repost:


    Gumpert Apollo - 1:19.4
    Caterham R500 - 1:20.2
    Ariel Atom 3 - 1:21.5
    Brooke Double R - 1:22.5
    Carrera GT - 1:23.3
    Porsche 997 GT2 - 1:23.5
    Nissan GTR - 1:23.6
    Mitsubishi Evo X SST - 1:29.3
    Nissan 350Z - 1:30.0
    Impreza WRX STi - 1:30.2

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Sorry if these EVO laptimes at Bedford are a repost:


    Gumpert Apollo - 1:19.4
    Caterham R500 - 1:20.2
    Ariel Atom 3 - 1:21.5
    Brooke Double R - 1:22.5
    Carrera GT - 1:23.3
    Porsche 997 GT2 - 1:23.5
    Nissan GTR - 1:23.6
    Mitsubishi Evo X SST - 1:29.3
    Nissan 350Z - 1:30.0
    Impreza WRX STi - 1:30.2



    The gtr is only 0.3SEC slower than the CGT over this lap.That's quite fast.And 2sec slower than the CGT on Nurburgring seems reasonable.
    But I don't think it can really reach 290km twice on one lap.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    deathnell said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Sorry if these EVO laptimes at Bedford are a repost:


    Gumpert Apollo - 1:19.4
    Caterham R500 - 1:20.2
    Ariel Atom 3 - 1:21.5
    Brooke Double R - 1:22.5
    Carrera GT - 1:23.3
    Porsche 997 GT2 - 1:23.5
    Nissan GTR - 1:23.6
    Mitsubishi Evo X SST - 1:29.3
    Nissan 350Z - 1:30.0
    Impreza WRX STi - 1:30.2



    The gtr is only 0.3SEC slower than the CGT over this lap.That's quite fast.And 2sec slower than the CGT on Nurburgring seems reasonable.
    But I don't think it can really reach 290km twice on one lap.



    I seriously doubt it can even reach 290 km/h once. The GT2 only reaches 293 km/h and is much faster than the 997TT, which is also faster than a GT-R, especially above 250 km/h...

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I seriously doubt it can even reach 290 km/h once. The GT2 only reaches 293 km/h and is much faster than the 997TT, which is also faster than a GT-R, especially above 250 km/h...



    Again: The top speed (290) you see on the graph provided by Nissan is right before the braking point.

    Sport Auto measures their top speed way before the braking point for the last few corners.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I seriously doubt it can even reach 290 km/h once. The GT2 only reaches 293 km/h and is much faster than the 997TT, which is also faster than a GT-R, especially above 250 km/h...



    Crash
    Do you have any data to give us the GTR acceleration over 250kph ? I read the anecdotal stuff in EVO (was it EVO ? one of the mags anyway) which described how the 997tt pulled away at very high speed....

    "If" the Cd quoted for the GTR of 0.27 is correct and comparable to the 997tt Cd (a big "if" IMO since windtunnels seem to give slightly different measurements and aero stuff is almost in the "black art" catagory) then it should be the GTR which has the advantage at speeds over 250kph with the same hp as the 997tt since the weight does not make so much of a difference to very high speed accelration ?

    I am very interested in this particular aspect as the 250-300kph acceleration will indicate how well the GTR holds onto its hp when things get hot (something we take for granted in our Porsches)- although I guess a 7.29 puts that one to bed !

    Forgetting the first 290 which does look like wheels in the air, the data trace does appear to show ~290kph where the other fast cars, CGT, GT2, GT Street are also in this ball park..... do you have real data

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    TB993tt said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    I seriously doubt it can even reach 290 km/h once. The GT2 only reaches 293 km/h and is much faster than the 997TT, which is also faster than a GT-R, especially above 250 km/h...



    Crash
    Do you have any data to give us the GTR acceleration over 250kph ? I read the anecdotal stuff in EVO (was it EVO ? one of the mags anyway) which described how the 997tt pulled away at very high speed....

    "If" the Cd quoted for the GTR of 0.27 is correct and comparable to the 997tt Cd (a big "if" IMO since windtunnels seem to give slightly different measurements and aero stuff is almost in the "black art" catagory) then it should be the GTR which has the advantage at speeds over 250kph with the same hp as the 997tt since the weight does not make so much of a difference to very high speed accelration ?

    I am very interested in this particular aspect as the 250-300kph acceleration will indicate how well the GTR holds onto its hp when things get hot (something we take for granted in our Porsches)- although I guess a 7.29 puts that one to bed !

    Forgetting the first 290 which does look like wheels in the air, the data trace does appear to show ~290kph where the other fast cars, CGT, GT2, GT Street are also in this ball park..... do you have real data



    I compared some 0-1000 m data in one of the previous threads, in which the Turbo was several km/h faster at the end. Actually, when you look at it, if the car really has only the stated 480 horsepower, it needs shorter gearing to offset its weight at lower speeds, thus leading to suboptimal gearing at higher speeds. Also, the coefficient of drag isn't everything. Surface area is also important and the GT-R is absolutely huge, even compared to the Turbo. I would like to see end figures for aerodynamics, not just the Cd. That's about all I have, so if you can think of anything else, that would be great.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Agreed, the CdA will be what really effects the GTR's high speed acceleration - Is this true about where the ~290kph was measured relative to the CGT/GT2 etc ? Surely the GTR must have been close to the CGT/GT2 in highest speed to be able to get down to the 7.29s level ?

    Here is technical release for the GTR, no CdA data, but indicative that they are certainly taking the competition seriously !

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    pic

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Crash said:

    I compared some 0-1000 m data in one of the previous threads, in which the Turbo was several km/h faster at the end. Actually, when you look at it, if the car really has only the stated 480 horsepower, it needs shorter gearing to offset its weight at lower speeds, thus leading to suboptimal gearing at higher speeds. Also, the coefficient of drag isn't everything. Surface area is also important and the GT-R is absolutely huge, even compared to the Turbo. I would like to see end figures for aerodynamics, not just the Cd. That's about all I have, so if you can think of anything else, that would be great.



    I remember comparing the GT-R's gearing with the 997TT's not long ago, think I was reading the review from R&T or MT or C&D and they published the GT-R's gearing. Surprisingly, they are VERY similar, so the ONLY possible explanation for GT-R's speed is MORE HP than 480.

    It's only a car and it still has to obey physics, for a heavier car to match or exceed the speed of a lighter car with a similar gearing, it HAS to have MORE HP.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Sorry if these EVO laptimes at Bedford are a repost:


    Gumpert Apollo - 1:19.4
    Caterham R500 - 1:20.2
    Ariel Atom 3 - 1:21.5
    Brooke Double R - 1:22.5
    Carrera GT - 1:23.3
    Porsche 997 GT2 - 1:23.5
    Nissan GTR - 1:23.6
    Mitsubishi Evo X SST - 1:29.3
    Nissan 350Z - 1:30.0
    Impreza WRX STi - 1:30.2



    A Nissan 350 is less than 7 seconds a lap slower than a GT2 or a CGT? Riiiiiight.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Carlos, I did not claim everything Newton espoused was wrong. All I said was Einstein proved Newton wrong. I did not state on which theories until Fritz called me on it. I then proceeded to show where Einstein proved Newton wrong.



    This is the beauty of Nick's argument/debate style. It goes something like, 'I did not say it's snowing outside. I simply said that it's 0 degrees Centigrade and there is a form of H2O falling from the sky at this very moment. But at no time did I specifically state it was snowing outside."

    When you say Einstein proved Newton "wrong" and then don't elaborate, you leave the reader to surmise that Einstein proved EVERYTHING Newton had theorized is wrong. Tsssk, tsssk. As Carlos has already mentioned, (but hoping an additional mention will help it sink in for our physics challenged friends), most of today's modern physics BUILDS ON existing science theories vs. REPLACE them outright. With better equipment, our measurments get more precise and as the scientific community collects better data and experience, some theories can be set aside and replaced with new ones that use the better data. Many of Newton's laws are still regarded as "laws" even today because no other competing theory or contradictory data has been discovered to discredit them (even a lawyer should be able to understand this one). By analogy, better measuring accuracy and computers have enlightened us to know that "P"i is more accurately described as 3.1516.........(insert thousands of digits here after the decimal point), but that doesn't make the practical 'everyday' Pi figure of 3.15 wrong. At least it doesn't for us folks that live beyond Southern California.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Joe, the GT-R is a car designed by Nissan to produce world class performance at a very reasonable price very much like the Porsche. When you stack the two up against one another it is no contest. The GT-R spanks the Porsche in every category. Ferrari does not have any interest in Ring times.




    Oh, I see, since YOU don't have any interest in Ring times, by way of Nick's Special Theory of Relativity, neither does Ferrari. Since when did Ferrari place you at the head of their PR department to evangelize their core principles and design objectives? When will the bitterness of your Porsche ownership experience subside to the point where we can all be free from these nonsense arguments & tirades of yours? What's the update on your Cayenne lawsuit for those of us who might have missed it?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Are you related to David of SF?

    Regarding your confusing posts.

    True or false, Einstein proved Newton wrong? Please no "but" just YES or NO?

    I harbor no grudge against Porsche. I just happen to disagree with their approach to marketing cars. Clearly my views do not coincide with Porsche success, so they know their customers very well. I am no longer one because I have become more discriminating when spending over $100,000 for a car.

    BTW, I have no idea as to what your referring to regarding suing Porsche. Is it possible I am suing Porsche and I do not know it.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    The 7:29 video is going to release by Best Mortoring from Japan

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Are you related to David of SF?

    Nope. The world beyond Lo Jolla is not flat and everyone who lives in San Francisco isn't necessarily related to each other.


    Quote:
    nberry said: True or false, Einstein proved Newton wrong? Please no "but" just YES or NO?

    Ok, this is a good one, how do you answer Yes or No to a True or False question? Only Nick could set up such a scenario. If this is a serious question, I'll defer to my earlier posts which answer it already.

    Quote:
    nberry said:I harbor no grudge against Porsche. I just happen to disagree with their approach to marketing cars. Clearly my views do not coincide with Porsche success, so they know their customers very well. I am no longer one because I have become more discriminating when spending over $100,000 for a car.

    BTW, I have no idea as to what your referring to regarding suing Porsche. Is it possible I am suing Porsche and I do not know it.

    I could be wrong but I know there was a period when you were criticizing more than how they market their cars. Didn't you have a Cayenne that had a throttle tip-in design flaw in your opinion and you were vexed that Porsche said in effect "Too bad, zees ees how der car vaz deezined"? I thought you were either suing them over it or lobbying for additional complainants for a class action suit or something. In any event, your memory seems a bit faded if all you admit to is a disagreement with the marketiing of their cars. I'd add that you also don't much like their car's looks, design philosophy, sales numbers, lack of hi tech technology like flappy paddle gearboxes, etc. No harm meant by this post. You enjoy your Fiat, and I'll enjoy my Beetle.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.




    So, Nick, are you ever going to explain what you meant by what you meant here? Specifically I'm asking what is(are) the disadvantage(s) of a rear engined car. You took this thread on a bizarre turn debating the merits of physicists from disparate centuries but my original question was simply for you to elaborate on what you meant by your blanket statement that a rear engined car is at a disadvantage when it comes to driving dynamics. What do you mean?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Carlos, I did not claim everything Newton espoused was wrong. All I said was Einstein proved Newton wrong. I did not state on which theories until Fritz called me on it. I then proceeded to show where Einstein proved Newton wrong.





    By analogy, better measuring accuracy and computers have enlightened us to know that "P"i is more accurately described as 3.1516.........(insert thousands of digits here after the decimal point),



    3,1416

     
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