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May 21, 2008 3:56:07 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
Nick no one will claim fraud if a car with similar hardware compared to any P-model (hp, weight etc.) will achieve better laptimes.
But: two similar cars (GT-R / 997TT) in terms of hp and weight and > 20 sec difference in laptime (both at factory stock spec) = no way
Whatever magic the Nissan's DSG and claimed superior 4wd traction management might do: almost 3/10 of a second advantage in each and every of the 72 corners ? 
Maybe you'll understand the scepticism better if you consider that a F430 (coupé) has a 28 sec advantage over a 987S
Yes, both cars are midengined two-seaters, but one has a 210 hp advantage 
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
eclou said:
Suzuki may be the only reason the car is lapping so well. Put him in a TT or GT3 and see how fast he can lap the Nring - if he would actually give it 100%
I'd like to see WR lap the Ring with the GT-R...
Racing Suzuki in the GT2 for a 1,000,000 euro prize.
WR wins?
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
AUM said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
eclou said:
Suzuki may be the only reason the car is lapping so well. Put him in a TT or GT3 and see how fast he can lap the Nring - if he would actually give it 100%
I'd like to see WR lap the Ring with the GT-R...
Racing Suzuki in the GT2 for a 1,000,000 euro prize.
WR wins?
That would be a very ungrateful outcome. Either the GT2 loses and WR wins or WR loses and the GT2 wins
.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
eclou said:
Suzuki may be the only reason the car is lapping so well. Put him in a TT or GT3 and see how fast he can lap the Nring - if he would actually give it 100%
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
Porsche-Jerk if it is true that the 997TT with Cup tires did the Ring in 7.41 why would it be impossible for the GT-R with its superior technology in suspension, engine, transmission and tires do better
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
Yep, very sad indeed. When it's aston martin, it's not hardcore enough. When it's Nissan, it's too ugly. When it's audi, something else.
Truth is, the waiting lists for the R8 & GT-R far exceed any Porsche, even the Cayenne. Looks like the world knows better, LOL
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
shin said:
Yep, very sad indeed. When it's aston martin, it's not hardcore enough. When it's Nissan, it's too ugly. When it's audi, something else.
Truth is, the waiting lists for the R8 & GT-R far exceed any Porsche, even the Cayenne. Looks like the world knows better, LOL
That's because Porsche builds many more of them, not because there is more demand.
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
Porsche-Jerk if it is true that the 997TT with Cup tires did the Ring in 7.41 why would it be impossible for the GT-R with its superior technology in suspension, engine, transmission and tires do better
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
I'm with Nick on this one.
We will not know the actual result until there is more prooft. Blindly believing or equally disbelieving the claim, and calling Nissan enginners outright liers while everything Porsche claims is true, is unfair.
Who really knows? Perhaps Porsche marketing department has been very effective in the last decade to have its customers believe that the performance standards of their sportscars (namely Ring time) cannot be developed any faster, while they could have produced much faster 911s. Instead Porsche might have been holding back and slowed the introduction of faster generations of models to maximize their profit. Nissan perhaps simply saw this through and is beating Porsche in their own game.
Everyone pretty much agrees that GT-R has more than 500ps. Even this is not something new. Didn't Porsche used to use this trick of conservative performance figures against the bloated Ferrari's cliams historically to generate this kind of 'word-of-mouth' marketing? It usually worked very well as far as I can remember.
On the other hand, this game of being modest and keeping quiet is getting bored. Nissan should release the video soon. Telemetry alone obviously is not good enought of a proof for many people here.
May 21, 2008 4:54:07 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo though
maybe in the future I should refrain from mentioning the F430 and the Boxster in one sentence, but I'll continue to overtake some of them at NoS
May 21, 2008 4:57:14 PM
- Crash
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo though
Yup, I think so too. A Freudian slip is much more likely. Just look where the letter 'C' is relative to the letter 'R' on a QWERTY keyboard
.
May 21, 2008 5:08:32 PM
- fritz
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo though
Jetzt erst recht!
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Are we in denial stage?
It's a long way before 'testing & acceptance.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
It's a long way before 'testing & acceptance.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Jean said:Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
I'm with Nick on this one.
We will not know the actual result until there is more prooft. Blindly believing or equally disbelieving the claim, and calling Nissan enginners outright liers while everything Porsche claims is true, is unfair.
Who really knows? Perhaps Porsche marketing department has been very effective in the last decade to have its customers believe that the performance standards of their sportscars (namely Ring time) cannot be developed any faster, while they could have produced much faster 911s. Instead Porsche might have been holding back and slowed the introduction of faster generations of models to maximize their profit. Nissan perhaps simply saw this through and is beating Porsche in their own game.
Everyone pretty much agrees that GT-R has more than 500ps. Even this is not something new. Didn't Porsche used to use this trick of conservative performance figures against the bloated Ferrari's cliams historically to generate this kind of 'word-of-mouth' marketing? It usually worked very well as far as I can remember.
On the other hand, this game of being modest and keeping quiet is getting bored. Nissan should release the video soon. Telemetry alone obviously is not good enought of a proof for many people here.
But the GT-R is doing CGT lap times, not 911 times...
May 21, 2008 5:30:10 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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- Reply to: nberry
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
That comment shows just how much you know about the SuperTest, but I will let you to do your homework and figure out what I mean by yourself...
embarrasing is passing judgements upon others without the knowdledge to do so and hence faulty premises... thats embarrasing.
May 21, 2008 5:31:08 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
Porsche-Jerk if it is true that the 997TT with Cup tires did the Ring in 7.41 why would it be impossible for the GT-R with its superior technology in suspension, engine, transmission and tires do better
That is why the GT3 is known for it ill handling and the 911 platform so unsuccesfull in motor racing history.
Oh, and you mean rear-engine as opposed to FRONT-engined (the well known most sport oriented engine placement known) like in the GT-R?
Boy, you are on a roll today Nick
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo though
Yup, I think so too. A Freudian slip is much more likely. Just look where the letter 'C' is relative to the letter 'R' on a QWERTY keyboard
I'm still waiting for Nick to come back and tell us that his keyboard is from Cherry, not QWERTY!
May 21, 2008 5:45:49 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Oh, and you mean rear-engine as opposed to FRONT-engined (the well known most sport oriented engine placement known) like in the GT-R?
Carlos, obviously you have no clue about the revolution in driving dynamics
The graph below (from the GT-R website) explains it all. It's almost comical
"New Driving" = turn with accelerator (I used to do this kind of "new driving" with my VW Beetle
) The comparo in the "fun to drive" department is also very convincing
@ fritz: Jetzt erst recht - LoL, I'm more motivated than ever
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
fritz said:
Nick, knowing your typing skills I suspect that was just a typo.
Could have been a Freudian typo though
Yup, I think so too. A Freudian slip is much more likely. Just look where the letter 'C' is relative to the letter 'R' on a QWERTY keyboard
I'm still waiting for Nick to come back and tell us that his keyboard is from Cherry, not QWERTY!
May 21, 2008 6:17:39 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Carlos, obviously you have no clue about the revolution in driving dynamics
The graph below (from the GT-R website) explains it all. It's almost comical
"New Driving" = turn with accelerator (I used to do this kind of "new driving" with my VW Beetle
Thats hilarious, I hadn't seen that before!!
I like how in the conventional driving part, you keep braking almost into the apex, the apex is smack in the middle and throttle is applied way after the turn, and the FUN TO DRIVE part is only the straight line acceleration passed the corner
... "Ease at wet & snow"
Too funny, looks like it was written by a writter from those late night infomertials were they try to sell you a miracle veggie chopping device
Now I know were all this Nring propaganda comes from, its from the guy in Nissan's marketing department who drew this very insightfull graph!! That explains everything!
May 21, 2008 6:21:42 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.
It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.
What's sad is the amount of people on this board that believe Nissan can do all of this in a 473HP, 3800lb car.
May 21, 2008 6:24:01 PM
- Atzporsche
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Reply to:
Carlos from Spain
Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Carlos, obviously you have no clue about the revolution in driving dynamics
The graph below (from the GT-R website) explains it all. It's almost comical
"New Driving" = turn with accelerator (I used to do this kind of "new driving" with my VW Beetle
Thats hilarious, I hadn't seen that before!!
I like how in the conventional driving part, you keep braking almost into the apex, the apex is smack in the middle and throttle is applied way after the turn, and the FUN TO DRIVE part is only the straight line acceleration passed the corner
... "Ease at wet & snow"
Too funny, looks like it was written by a writter from those late night infomertials were they try to sell you a miracle veggie chopping device
Now I know were all this Nring propaganda comes from, its from the guy in Nissan's marketing department who drew this very insightfull graph!! That explains everything!
OMG that graph made my day hahahahaha.
You can't be serious that that was actually posted on their Nissan website!!!
I love how they say Brake SHORT & HARD!!!! I believe most of us were already doing that, bahahahahhaa
Nissan you don't have super special Brakes
This graph is as comical as the GT-Rs general appearance
May 21, 2008 6:32:05 PM
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ResB
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Is it so hard to believe. The initial review by Jethro Bovingdon comments that the car is "so" stable under braking that perhaps the braking procedure is almost "emergencyesque", which I know I wouldn't do up to a corner.
I can't wait to see how this car really performs in the cold light of day.
I can't wait to see how this car really performs in the cold light of day.
May 21, 2008 6:33:22 PM
- Jean
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
This is not new, either. Nissan's ATTESA-ETS.
Same driving dynamics as Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution series with electronic torque spilitter, where you would floor the throttle at the apex and let the computer sort it out for neutral handling.
You can see that computer is faster here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRn8-xTaO28
As someone metioned earlier, there has been a great improvement in driving dynamics past few years due to computer controls. You guys have been living in dark ages.
Same driving dynamics as Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution series with electronic torque spilitter, where you would floor the throttle at the apex and let the computer sort it out for neutral handling.
You can see that computer is faster here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRn8-xTaO28
As someone metioned earlier, there has been a great improvement in driving dynamics past few years due to computer controls. You guys have been living in dark ages.
May 21, 2008 6:33:54 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
You should be more explicit as to what disadvantage you mean. True front vs. rear engine is different, obviously, but in the areas of traction under acceleration and braking, Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
1. Weight transfers backward under forward acceleration and therefore puts even more weight on a rear engined car's wheels which help limit tire slip via increased friction and transfer more energy to the pavement. Similarly, this phenomenon means you'll never see a front engined, front wheel drive racecar. Here in the hills of San Francisco when a front engined/front wheel drive car is going uphill and pulling away at a stop light - weight transfers to the rear which means the front tires have less weight to pin them to the road and you'll hear them spin unless it has a traction control device.
2. Think about that front engined car again under heavy braking. Now the majority of the car's weight is on the front tires because the car's rear weight shifts forward. A front wheel drive car is typically 60%/40% front to rear weight bias when it's parked but under heavy braking, you can imagine that the rear brakes and tires are adding very little traction effect because only 10 to 15% of the car's weight will be loading them. A rear engined car on the other hand, benefits from this weight transfer under heavy braking and when you move 20% or so of it's rear weight bias to the front under heavy braking, you're actually achieving a 50-50% front/rear weight distribution (approximately).
Obviously there are electronic and physical traction enhancing devices that cars have to counter these physical laws but clearly it's a huge mistake to use superlatives and such to say that rear engined cars are at a disadvantage. After all, if that was the case, how could Porsche be the most successful marque in sports car racing today?
May 21, 2008 6:38:52 PM
- Atzporsche
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
You should be more explicit as to what disadvantage you mean. True front vs. rear engine is different, obviously, but in the areas of traction under acceleration and braking, Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
1. Weight transfers backward under forward acceleration and therefore puts even more weight on a rear engined car's wheels which help limit tire slip via increased friction and transfer more energy to the pavement. Similarly, this phenomenon means you'll never see a front engined, front wheel drive racecar. Here in the hills of San Francisco when a front engined/front wheel drive car is going uphill and pulling away at a stop light - weight transfers to the rear which means the front tires have less weight to pin them to the road and you'll hear them spin unless it has a traction control device.
2. Think about that front engined car again under heavy braking. Now the majority of the car's weight is on the front tires because the car's rear weight shifts forward. A front wheel drive car is typically 60%/40% front to rear weight bias when it's parked but under heavy braking, you can imagine that the rear brakes and tires are adding very little traction effect because only 10 to 15% of the car's weight will be loading them. A rear engined car on the other hand, benefits from this weight transfer under heavy braking and when you move 20% or so of it's rear weight bias to the front under heavy braking, you're actually achieving a 50-50% front/rear weight distribution (approximately).
Obviously there are electronic and physical traction enhancing devices that cars have to counter these physical laws but clearly it's a huge mistake to use superlatives and such to say that rear engined cars are at a disadvantage. After all, if that was the case, how could Porsche be the most successful marque in sports car racing today?
good writeup. I thought nberry would know this
All i know is this.......
May 21, 2008 6:48:23 PM
- KresoF1
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Well, I do not get it... We are here in great dillema-to belive or not to belive in GT-R claimed 7.29min Ring time?
I do not belive in it.
Why?
Answer is not simple. BTW, Nick check that BMW/Sport Auto PDF that I posted few weeks ago AGAIN. It is not possible to reach almost(or more then!) 290km/h at Schwedenkreuz in that short time as claimed on GT-R graph. Something is wrong here...
Tires? Dunlops that are offered on basic version? Not the Bridgestone that is on best specs version? Strange again...
BTW, another VERY interesting point from different track time... By EVO on Bedford...
GT-R is just 0.3s faster then R8 there according to R.Meaden(who was the driver in both cases)... GT-R was slower on top speed check point then R8! Something is again very wrong here...
I do not belive in it.
Why?
Answer is not simple. BTW, Nick check that BMW/Sport Auto PDF that I posted few weeks ago AGAIN. It is not possible to reach almost(or more then!) 290km/h at Schwedenkreuz in that short time as claimed on GT-R graph. Something is wrong here...
Tires? Dunlops that are offered on basic version? Not the Bridgestone that is on best specs version? Strange again...
BTW, another VERY interesting point from different track time... By EVO on Bedford...
GT-R is just 0.3s faster then R8 there according to R.Meaden(who was the driver in both cases)... GT-R was slower on top speed check point then R8! Something is again very wrong here...
May 21, 2008 7:07:12 PM
- JoeRockhead
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Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap
Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:Quote:
nberry said:
Dynamics of a rear engine car are totally different than a front engine. An engine sitting behind the rear axle is at a distinct disadvantage.
(edit).. Newton's laws of physics are very solid and actually benefit a rear engined car.
Sorry, you lost him right there. Nick doesn't acknowledge the laws of physics as being relevant to Nissan's claims.
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