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    GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    14/05/2008 http://www.drivers-republic.com/news/news_article_14_05_08_pg2.cfm

    Nissan GT-R (The story behind that 7 minute 29 second lap)

    Author: Jethro Bovingdon

    It's old news that the Nissan GTR is rewriting the rules on what's possible for a relatively affordable and everyday usable super-coupe and that it recently lapped the Nordschliefe in 7:29 - setting a new benchmark for fully homologated production cars. But meeting the man who set the time, Tochio Suzuki, and the man in control of the car's development from the ground up, Kazutoshi Mizuno, is a great opportunity to witness first hand just how obsessive Nissan are about the GTR. And how proud they are that it has undoubtedly set new standards for everyone else to be judged against. Grabbing a couple of laps of Estoril with Suzuki is pretty revealing, too...

    First up that Nurburgring lap. The target for the GTR was always 7:30 - and it had to be achieved in a fully representative 'customer-spec' car. Mizuno is quite clear on this: 'This time was set on a totally standard car, just like a customer will get. For us 'Time Attack' must be repeatable in a customer car. No special brake pads or cut-slick tyres - everything was standard GTR.' The time, set on April 8th, was achieved on the Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tyre that is standard on the basic GTR (i.e. non Premium or 'Black' spec, which both have Bridgestone RE070R tyres).

    The Dunlop is a little noisier and not quite as good in the wet as the RE070R, but in the dry it's worth 4-5 seconds around the 'Ring. Incredibly all the tests of the GTR in the UK so far have been on the slower Bridgestone - and yet it has consistently set faster lap times than cars like the GT3.
    Suzuki is quietly spoken and although he doesn't like to conduct interviews in English he's eloquent when talking about the lap. 'The conditions were perfect. I don't think the car could go faster. Its main strength is stability - on the brakes and in the corners. And the tyres are very consistent.' Is there a scary part of the circuit? - a key section to getting a good time but also the bit you don't look forward to? 'No. The lap was optimum but the car is predictable and easy to drive on the limit.'

    The data trace that Mizuno is proud to take me through suggests that Suzuki is being ridiculously modest. The peak lateral G figure is 1.4 - and the car averages 1.3G from corner to corner. The GTR hits 290kph twice on its way to that lap time. The throttle position graph tells of total commitment (TPOS on the graph). Lapping a 1740kg road car in 7:29 is simply a phenomenal achievement.

    incredibly there's more to come. Mizuno, Suzuki and the rest of the team are already well into the V-Spec development programme. Both men are tight lipped about the project but with an increase in power (to around 550bhp) and a 100kg weight saving, the V-Spec should move the GTR even further ahead of its rivals. Suzuki thinks the car should be as much as 10-seconds quicker than the standard car around the 'Ring. However, the V-Spec will have more extreme track-biased tyres, which will account for a large chunk of the time saving.

    Suzuki is on full PR duty, demonstrating the GTR to dozens of journalists around the Estoril circuit. I sense he's bored, hence the early quick and tidy laps becoming more lurid as the day goes on. You can hear that the GTR is fully sideways well before each corner from the pit wall - the tyres wailing under the torture - and the spectacular drifting is necessitating a fresh set of Dunlops with virtually every fuel stop. But when I jump in beside him I ask him to do a proper lap first, and then a silly one. He nods approvingly.

    First impression is once again just how fast the GTR is - most cars feel blunted on a wide track but the Nissan still feels immense, the power ramping up with every instantaneous gearchange. Suzuki is super-aggressive on the brakes but smooth on corner entry. However he then has to wait for the front to bite and it takes a couple of exploratory prods of the accelerator before the nose sticks and Suzuki can fully commit the twin-turbo 3.8-litre V6. Estoril is smooth and wide, unlike the Nordschleife and you can tell the GTR isn't as suited to this sort of modern circuit. It's still very fast but the weight does tend to push the front wide and Suzuki is more often managing the power than simply unleashing it.
    Having said that, the GTR's body control is exceptional and the brakes seem to shrug off the weight. Through the Parabolica - a long fast right-hander where you'd expect the car to start understeering, it stays neutral and Suzuki pours more and more power down to the track. Impressive stuff. Check out the video to see Suzuki at work - we'll also have the full 7:29 lap up soon.

    Lap 2 is slower but super-sideways. Suzuki just turns the GTR in on the brakes, waits for the slide to build and then flattens the throttle to pull the car straight. Sometimes it needs virtually full opposite lock but always the transition between grip-slip-grip is smooth and Suzuki is right on top of the car. Afterwards he says the car could be improved 'to give a little more feedback'. The V-Spec is truly going to be a special car.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Impressive .. The V Spec , what will that thing clock around the ring....

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    The GTR hits 290kph twice on its way to that lap time!

    Does this mean GTR is having a faster 0-300km/h time than gt2,Ruf_RT12 or something like CCX?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    This is the real problem. It is almost impossible to hit 290km/h TWICE on the Ring on single lap.
    There are two places were you can go above 260km/h in capable car: Schwedenkreuz and Doettinger Hoehe...

    Just for comparison data from 997 GT2 Ring lap by Sport Auto(Horst von Saurma):

    Schwedenkreuz 266km/h(top speed just before brake point)
    Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h(top speed)

    Two achieve more then 290km/h TWICE on single lap on the Ring means in real world that car must have way more then 550hp...

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    I guess we'll see when the 7:29 video is up..?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Who cares!? Why are so many people caught up in the GTR? It's a tech tour de force and fast too. Go out get into the car you bought and cherish and put some miles and smiles on both you and your car. Forget about the hype of the GTR, there will always be faster...

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just for comparison data from 997 GT2 Ring lap by Sport Auto(Horst von Saurma):

    Schwedenkreuz 266km/h(top speed just before brake point)
    Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h(top speed)





    There was a report a while ago about a "fun race" W. Röhrl (GT2) vs. H. Dähne (bike). Röhrl did a 7:32 (cold tarmac 7*C) and he approached Schwedenkreuz @ 270 km/h while topspeed at Döttinger Höhe was reported @ 302 km/h.

    It would be interesting to watch the graph of the complete GT-R lap. Don't forget that topspeed at Schwedenkreuz is not only determined by HP and aerodynamic efficiency, but also by how much momentum you can take with you from the fast Flugplatz bend (before entering the straight towards Schwedenkreuz). It would be interesting to know how much speed the GT-R would have taken through Flugplatz (as we know Nissan claims that the car can pe pushed faster through the corners due to the claimed superior AWD/electronic traction management)

    Having said that I never heard of a non-race car achieving 290 km/h at Schwedenkreuz Apart from the hardware (car) one thing is for sure: it would need a driver with balls of steel ....Aremberg is waiting just around the corner

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    A difference of 20km/h at speed of above 250km/h is imposible, is cars with similar HP it would take a considerable extra time and distance to be able to achieve it, no matter the exit speed of the corner. The only car that comes to mind that can achieve 290km/h at Schwedenkreuz is the TechArt GT-Street with 646HP/870Nm and its radical aerodinamic and chasis setup, and don't even know what tires they used. That tells us what kind of car and HP would be needed to make 290km/h there, we are talking about 646 horses and a highly higly tunned car. Certainly not a 480Kg/1800kg car off the assembly and in customer spec. That is just as comical as the 7:29 claimed lap.

    Also there is the fact that the rear engined GT2 is no slouch at launching out of the corners and the GT-R's aerodinamic drag is not particularly great. And wasn't the GT-R's gearing designed for better acceleration 0-200 at the expense of >200 acceleration?

    I think Nissan is just making it worse the more they talk about it.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Twice times 290 km/h is what the reporter remembers seeing on the graph. Let's wait until we see the graph and video before rushing to judgment.

    One thing is certain: The performance of the GTR is outstanding and the list of production cars that can beat it on the Ring is tiny.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Twice times 290 km/h is what the reporter remembers seeing on the graph. Let's wait until we see the graph and video before rushing to judgment.

    One thing is certain: The performance of the GTR is outstanding and the list of production cars that can beat it on the Ring is tiny.



    I truly have a hard time believing those numbers, but I do secretly hope they're true, despite being somewhat biased towards Porsche. Such a breakthrough would mean that Porsche & company would need to seriously step up their development of new technologies.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap


    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Twice times 290 km/h is what the reporter remembers seeing on the graph. Let's wait until we see the graph and video before rushing to judgment.

    One thing is certain: The performance of the GTR is outstanding and the list of production cars that can beat it on the Ring is tiny.



    Here is the graph. The earlier 290km/h hit must have been on a downhill section. The acceleration didnt fade.


    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    OT but... But: Is the GTR fun to drive at legal speeds?

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Read Dan Neil's (of the LATimes) review and you start wondering if it's fun at all...

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    JohnJohn said:
    Read Dan Neil's (of the LATimes) review and you start wondering if it's fun at all...


    Dan Neil's "Rumble Seat: 2009 Nissan GT-R"
    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil16apr16,0,1179971.story

    Dan Neil's "2008 Porsche GT2: Brute almighty"
    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil2apr02,0,2487267.story

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Just for comparison data from 997 GT2 Ring lap by Sport Auto(Horst von Saurma):

    Schwedenkreuz 266km/h(top speed just before brake point)
    Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h(top speed)





    There was a report a while ago about a "fun race" W. Röhrl (GT2) vs. H. Dähne (bike). Röhrl did a 7:32 (cold tarmac 7*C) and he approached Schwedenkreuz @ 270 km/h while topspeed at Döttinger Höhe was reported @ 302 km/h.

    It would be interesting to watch the graph of the complete GT-R lap. Don't forget that topspeed at Schwedenkreuz is not only determined by HP and aerodynamic efficiency, but also by how much momentum you can take with you from the fast Flugplatz bend (before entering the straight towards Schwedenkreuz). It would be interesting to know how much speed the GT-R would have taken through Flugplatz (as we know Nissan claims that the car can pe pushed faster through the corners due to the claimed superior AWD/electronic traction management)

    Having said that I never heard of a non-race car achieving 290 km/h at Schwedenkreuz Apart from the hardware (car) one thing is for sure: it would need a driver with balls of steel ....Aremberg is waiting just around the corner



    I just saw the graph on Drivers Republic and it does look like the GTR touches 290 km/h at Schwedenkreuz. Here is the link to the graph.

    http://www.drivers-republic.com/images/photos/full_images/nissan_gtr/_DS37782S.jpg

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Simply awesome!

    I am looking forward to the V-spec. I have heard from the Nissan OEM manufacturers that they have been experimenting various carbon-fiber parts, including the suspension arms.

    We might need GT2 RS now.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    hatchback said:
    Quote:
    JohnJohn said:
    Read Dan Neil's (of the LATimes) review and you start wondering if it's fun at all...


    Dan Neil's "Rumble Seat: 2009 Nissan GT-R"
    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil16apr16,0,1179971.story

    Dan Neil's "2008 Porsche GT2: Brute almighty"
    http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil2apr02,0,2487267.story



    Off topic. The fun factor is not the subject of this thread (there are other threads discussing pleasure at sane speeds). This is about performance data and claims at the limit.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Twice times 290 km/h is what the reporter remembers seeing on the graph. Let's wait until we see the graph and video before rushing to judgment.

    One thing is certain: The performance of the GTR is outstanding and the list of production cars that can beat it on the Ring is tiny.



    Based on what exactly? to date all we have is a 7:50 on damp surface of a "pre-production" unit by HvS and a lot of hype by the marketing department form Nissan.

    Until HvS gets a Euro-customer-spec GTR and performs all the checks for foul play on the car and drives it on the ring for the SuperTest we won't know at all, any conclusions right know is wishfull thinking or marketing bait. I just hope it doesn't take to long for the SuperTest! though I have my reasons to believe it will.

    Wether its fantastic on the ring or just another NRing fraud doens't matter, but the people should know already for the sake of truth and all the BS speculations which serve nobody (well, except Nissan's marketing dep). If its not true it will just be another Nring dissapointment along the list of many previous others, and if there is some truth to it then it will be good for customers of other sport-makers which will be forced to step it up one notch.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    That very 1st 290kmh on the graph looks very much like a sharp spike, definately not normal acceleration.

    I think it is possible that the car was briefly airborne with the throttle planted and the wheels/revs (not sure how the speed is measured on the GTR) were able to briefly skyrocket and give the false reading of 290km/h

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Interesting that the Dunlops on the base model are faster:

    The target for the GTR was always 7:30 - and it had to be achieved in a fully representative 'customer-spec' car. Mizuno is quite clear on this: 'This time was set on a totally standard car, just like a customer will get. For us 'Time Attack' must be repeatable in a customer car. No special brake pads or cut-slick tyres - everything was standard GTR.'

    The time, set on April 8th, was achieved on the Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST tyre that is standard on the basic GTR (i.e. non Premium or 'Black' spec, which both have Bridgestone RE070R tyres).

    The Dunlop is a little noisier and not quite as good in the wet as the RE070R, but in the dry it's worth 4-5 seconds around the 'Ring. Incredibly all the tests of the GTR in the UK so far have been on the slower Bridgestone - and yet it has consistently set faster lap times than cars like the GT3.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    This is the real problem. It is almost impossible to hit 290km/h TWICE on the Ring on single lap.
    There are two places were you can go above 260km/h in capable car: Schwedenkreuz and Doettinger Hoehe...

    Just for comparison data from 997 GT2 Ring lap by Sport Auto(Horst von Saurma):

    Schwedenkreuz 266km/h(top speed just before brake point)
    Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h(top speed)

    Two achieve more then 290km/h TWICE on single lap on the Ring means in real world that car must have way more then 550hp...



    It depends on where they measure the speed.Sport Auto seems to have their speed trap before the uphill and the left corner.
    After the left corner it goes downhill where every car accelerates again and it's clear on the graph that Nissan provided that they achieved 290kph just before braking for the last couple of corners.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Carn said:
    That very 1st 290kmh on the graph looks very much like a sharp spike, definately not normal acceleration.

    I think it is possible that the car was briefly airborne with the throttle planted and the wheels/revs (not sure how the speed is measured on the GTR) were able to briefly skyrocket and give the false reading of 290km/h



    That's what I thought too.The speed decreases as fast as it increased.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I just saw the graph on Drivers Republic and it does look like the GTR touches 290 km/h at Schwedenkreuz.



    Yes I saw it also. Must be some magic rubber with the car pulling 1.4 lateral g-force I'm afraid we'll never know what they did with the car (NoS specific mods + engine "upgrade") before this magic lap
    I guess they have been so much focussed on the 7:30 thing that the engineers would have lost face without achieving it (no matter what kind of mods needed to achieve this).
    Like said before: there is no available record of any customer specced streetlegal supercar achieving such crazy speed at the braking point before Schwedenkreuz (no CGT, no Zonda - no nada).
    Though I doubt that this stunt will have significant influence on the commercial success of the car. It's good for some heated talk amongst bar stool racers while having a beer - at the end of the day buyers must be convinced of the entire package under real world circumstances. I hope that none of the GT-R buyers will show up at NoS trying to imitate the lap shown by the graph

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    Carn said:
    That very 1st 290kmh on the graph looks very much like a sharp spike, definately not normal acceleration.

    I think it is possible that the car was briefly airborne with the throttle planted and the wheels/revs (not sure how the speed is measured on the GTR) were able to briefly skyrocket and give the false reading of 290km/h



    That's what I thought too.The speed decreases as fast at it increased.



    Actually there is a nasty bump at exactly this spot - all fast cars will "become light" there at least. Lot of amateur drivers have accidents there because (if not familiar with it) they panic and lift their foot from the gas pedal or - even worse - brake

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    On the 7.38 GTR lap the speedo shows about 260 km/h at Schwedenkreuz.
    290 km/h there is hard to believe. The jump theory sounds very plausible. It will be interesting to see the video.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    I think the airbourne theory is correct judging by the graph. In fact I would go as far as saying that IS the reason we see 290kmh.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.

    It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.

    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    maybe it was a wind blast that made the 7.29lap possible?

    the knife cuts both ways, you classify the non-believers immediatly as Porschephiles while in this thread we have a really interesting discussion about the lap-time

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.

    It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.


    Re: GT-R: The story behind the 7.29 lap

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I predict that if HvS does 7.40 or less in the GT-R, you and the rest of the Porschephiles will claim that Nissan gave him a souped up car. As long as a manufacturer other than Porsche achieve performance parameters that Porsche's are unable to do, Porschephiles will claim fraud.

    It really is becoming tiresome and frankly embarrassing for a board with so many knowledgeable sport car enthusiast. Sad, very sad.



    Nick, as is your habit you are distorting the views expressed by other posters to suit your own unfathomable purposes.
    My guess is that a lot of the people who have doubted Nissan's claimed N'Ring time here have - like me - not just because it is a Nissan, any more than they (or I) doubt the times claimed for the Radical or the Pagani.

    I just doubt that that time can be achieved by a car with the GTR's publicised power-to-weight figures on any street legal tire, and therefore think that if the time was actually achieved then the car was a "Ringer" in the two senses of that word that could explain it.

     
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