Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this - Page1

Apr 15, 2008 7:32:03 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

question.

" HOW IS IT THAT THE 997 GT2 WITH 530 HP AND WEIGHTS ABOUT 3200LBS CAN HAVE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PERFORMANCE AS THE CGT WHICH HAS 612HP AND WEIGHTS about 150lbs LESS THAN THE GT2?

Is Porsche fudging the hp for the GT2?

Is Porsche fudging the performance times of the GT2?

Is it the driver?

Is it technology?

Or does the GT2 defy physics and only Porsche can make that happen?

Is it possible that technology that maximizes performance was incorporated in the GT2 and GT-R or are you all stuck with manual transmission and fail to grasp the what technology can do for performance?

Can it be that the GT2 was designed and built by Nissan?

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Apr 15, 2008 7:43:14 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Tires...

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Apr 15, 2008 7:44:07 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

One difference would be the torque curve of the 997 GT2 is vastly flatter from very low rpms' to near redline. CGT has a much narrower power sweet-spot (very high in the revs). Although the CGT has higher peak power (at sea level), I think the GT2 may have more usable power in most situations (and much more than the CGT at higher elevations).

I think the 997 GT2's launch control (and ability to build boost before take-off) is largely responsible for its amazing straight-line dragstrip speed.

I imagine (never having driven either) that they are VERY different driving experiences, despite their close objective numbers.

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Apr 15, 2008 7:44:52 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

There is something called TORQUE Nick, you may want to look it up

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Apr 15, 2008 7:47:18 PM

Modrocket_stereo: Veteran; Loc: Chicago; Posts: 1178, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 8, 2003; Reply to: eclou

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

I really don't care

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Apr 15, 2008 7:48:16 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

In GT2 case answers are:

-Tires: Michelin Cups are speically designed in collaboration between Michelin and Porsche(NO specs) and they are actually also very good for normal street use as well

-New PASM: new PASM is also tuned much differently then PASM on normal 997 Turbo.

-Aerodynamics: GT2 is probably the only sportscar that is producing DOWNFORCE at front and rear. It means amazing straight line and curve stability even at very high speed. Kudos to Porsche technical stuff about this achivment since aerodynamically GT2 is a true masterpiece.

-Traction: with use of more agressive LSD that is working together with PSM it is possible to achive excellent traction for RWD only car. End result-on wet handling track GT2 is despite RWD faster more then 2s then AWD 997 Turbo...

-manual gearbox: it is pretty clear that manual gearbox is actually an advantage over DSG in above average driver hands on track like Nordschliefe. Why? Talk to some race drivers from Europe, not old farts from USA that like 997 Turbo TIP...

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Apr 15, 2008 7:48:59 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: eclou

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

F430 scud is also supposedly as fast as Enzo at Fiorano (source is F). It is possible.

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Apr 15, 2008 7:51:06 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: eclou

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
eclou said:
There is something called TORQUE Nick, you may want to look it up

The Ring times are almost identical. How much does torque have to do with a 7.32 run assuming the GT2 has more than the CGT which is very debateable.

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Apr 15, 2008 7:54:59 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

I don't think torque is the key, the driver of the CGT would keep the revs up...

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Apr 15, 2008 7:56:04 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
In GT2 case answers are:

-Tires: Michelin Cups are speically designed in collaboration between Michelin and Porsche(NO specs) and they are actually also very good for normal street use as well

-New PASM: new PASM is also tuned much differently then PASM on normal 997 Turbo.

-Aerodynamics: GT2 is probably the only sportscar that is producing DOWNFORCE at front and rear. It means amazing straight line and curve stability even at very high speed. Kudos to Porsche technical stuff about this achivment since aerodynamically GT2 is a true masterpiece.

-Traction: with use of more agressive LSD that is working together with PSM it is possible to achive excellent traction for RWD only car. End result-on wet handling track GT2 is despite faster more then 2s then AWD 997 Turbo...

-manual gearbox: it is pretty clear that manual gearbox is actually an advantage over DSG in above average driver hands on track like Nordschliefe. Why? Talk to some race drivers from Europe, not old farts from USA that like 997 Turbo TIP...

I witnessed first hand the CGT taken apart piece by piece and the two automobile experts were blown away as to how well the car was designed for speed. I doubt very much that the GT2 is any better in design.

However, assuming the reasons you laid out are valid then why can't technology arguments be made for the GT-R against the 911's?

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Apr 15, 2008 7:58:17 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Who says the GT2 really makes 530 hp?

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Apr 15, 2008 7:59:25 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
SciFrog said:
Who says the GT2 really makes 530 hp?

hehehe

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Apr 15, 2008 8:07:35 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
In GT2 case answers are:

-Tires: Michelin Cups are speically designed in collaboration between Michelin and Porsche(NO specs) and they are actually also very good for normal street use as well

-New PASM: new PASM is also tuned much differently then PASM on normal 997 Turbo.

-Aerodynamics: GT2 is probably the only sportscar that is producing DOWNFORCE at front and rear. It means amazing straight line and curve stability even at very high speed. Kudos to Porsche technical stuff about this achivment since aerodynamically GT2 is a true masterpiece.

-Traction: with use of more agressive LSD that is working together with PSM it is possible to achive excellent traction for RWD only car. End result-on wet handling track GT2 is despite faster more then 2s then AWD 997 Turbo...

-manual gearbox: it is pretty clear that manual gearbox is actually an advantage over DSG in above average driver hands on track like Nordschliefe. Why? Talk to some race drivers from Europe, not old farts from USA that like 997 Turbo TIP...

I witnessed first hand the CGT taken apart piece by piece and the two automobile experts were blown away as to how well the car was designed for speed. I doubt very much that the GT2 is any better in design.

However, assuming the reasons you laid out are valid then why can't technology arguments be made for the GT-R against the 911's?

Since you asked about GT-R technology I can ask also why is Nissan:

-starting the sales of GT-R in EU in March 2009?
-still do not publish final hp, CO2 emissions and fuel consumption data for Eu market?
-not publishing final weight figure for EU specs GT-R?

See my point? GT-R will receive some changes for EU market...

When a truly respectfull magazine like German Sport Auto fully measures GT-R we will know the truth.

Even EVO stuff said in recent articles about GT-R:"..we need to try EU specs RHD GT-R before making any final judgement."

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Apr 15, 2008 8:09:26 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

True, but what would be the point of delivering souped up US and Japan cars but not in europe?

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Apr 15, 2008 8:12:31 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
SciFrog said:
True, but what would be the point of delivering souped up US and Japan cars but not in europe?

Mass internet hysteria or hyp...

Let's be serious-either EU GT-Rs will have different power ratings or will be tuned down...

What is your bet-more power or tuned down?

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Apr 15, 2008 8:14:25 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Well no need to bet, why would they have announced 480 hp then? If they planned on having more power, the would have done it already.

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Apr 15, 2008 8:14:25 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

I suspect like Corvette, they do not anticipate a large market for the car in Europe. Europeans are notorious for staying within their family of products.

Why spend a lot of time and money on the car for Europe spec when they can better use the resources selling in the ROW? Honestly, the Sportauto test will be meaningless. It will be dated by at least two years and the car tested rather benign.

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Apr 15, 2008 8:14:54 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
nberry said:However, assuming the reasons you laid out are valid then why can't technology arguments be made for the GT-R against the 911's?

Because if you add 300Kg (+660lbs) to the GT2 it won't even be close to the CGT at the ring

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Apr 15, 2008 8:17:40 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
SciFrog said:
True, but what would be the point of delivering souped up US and Japan cars but not in europe?

US cars might be de-tuned, as well. Stay tuned....

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Apr 15, 2008 8:22:02 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
nberry said:
I suspect like Corvette, they do not anticipate a large market for the car in Europe. Europeans are notorious for staying within their family of products.

Why spend a lot of time and money on the car for Europe spec when they can better use the resources selling in the ROW? Honestly, the Sportauto test will be meaningless. It will be dated by at least two years and the car tested rather benign.

Huh... You are wrong regarding Vette... It is selling very good in EU. Corvette Europe(also selling Caddy) needs to boost number of Vettes for 2009...

Regarding GT-R you are again wrong... All UK and German cars for 2009 are sold out... Also since Euro is much stronger then Uncle Sam $ it makes a nice point for Nissan to sell more GT-Rs in EU then ROW. BUT, EU regulations are some other story...

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Apr 15, 2008 8:24:25 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
nberry said:However, assuming the reasons you laid out are valid then why can't technology arguments be made for the GT-R against the 911's?

Because if you add 300Kg (+660lbs) to the GT2 it won't even be close to the CGT at the ring

Carlos, would you not have to give the additional hp to the GT2 (612) and that would make them even again (i.e. 997 TT 480hp; the GT-R 480 but weight difference is about 350lbs)?

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Apr 15, 2008 8:31:20 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
I suspect like Corvette, they do not anticipate a large market for the car in Europe. Europeans are notorious for staying within their family of products.

Why spend a lot of time and money on the car for Europe spec when they can better use the resources selling in the ROW? Honestly, the Sportauto test will be meaningless. It will be dated by at least two years and the car tested rather benign.

Huh... You are wrong regarding Vette... It is selling very good in EU. Corvette Europe(also selling Caddy) needs to boost number of Vettes for 2009...

Regarding GT-R you are again wrong... All UK and German cars for 2009 are sold out... Also since Euro is much stronger then Uncle Sam $ it makes a nice point for Nissan to sell more GT-Rs in EU then ROW. BUT, EU regulations are some other story...

Well those in the know disagree with your Corvette assessment.

http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evonews/208946/chevrolet_corvette.html

The reason why the GT-r is sold out in Europe has nothing to do with its popularity but with allocations. Very few have been allocated to Europe.

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Apr 15, 2008 8:35:23 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer this

Problem is in Kroymans Group, not in low demand for Vette. Belive me... For the money all Vette versions are best buys IMHO.

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Apr 15, 2008 8:45:04 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
nberry said:
question.

" HOW IS IT THAT THE 997 GT2 WITH 530 HP AND WEIGHTS ABOUT 3200LBS CAN HAVE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME PERFORMANCE AS THE CGT WHICH HAS 612HP AND WEIGHTS about 150lbs LESS THAN THE GT2?

Easier answer than you expect: the GT2 does not "essentially" offer the same performance as the CGT

The CGT is faster than the GT2:

NBR: 1s (Sportauto) to 4s (WR time claimed by Porsche)
HHR: 1s (based on Sportauto)

While these differences are not insignificant they become HUGE if you consider the old tire technology used on the CGT. On identical tires the CGT would be probably 5s quicker on the NBR and at least 2s on the HHR.

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Apr 15, 2008 10:00:37 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
eclou said:
There is something called TORQUE Nick, you may want to look it up

The Ring times are almost identical. How much does torque have to do with a 7.32 run assuming the GT2 has more than the CGT which is very debateable.

I posted an article here a while back where Walter Rohrl explains why the GT2 was faster around the ring. Tires. Look it up if you really care, and I know you don't.

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Apr 15, 2008 11:16:23 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
eclou said:
There is something called TORQUE Nick, you may want to look it up

The Ring times are almost identical. How much does torque have to do with a 7.32 run assuming the GT2 has more than the CGT which is very debateable.

I posted an article here a while back where Walter Rohrl explains why the GT2 was faster around the ring. Tires. Look it up if you really care, and I know you don't.

Joe, do you really believe tires would make a difference between a CGT which was bred by Porsche for racing (and they equipped it with inferior tires while trying to set a Ring record

) and the GT2 which weighs more and has almost 90 less hp?

If you believe that then you would have no difficulty in believing the the GT-R is much faster than the TT even though it weighs about 300lbs more and has the same hp.

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Apr 15, 2008 11:20:46 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
eclou said:
There is something called TORQUE Nick, you may want to look it up

The Ring times are almost identical. How much does torque have to do with a 7.32 run assuming the GT2 has more than the CGT which is very debateable.

I posted an article here a while back where Walter Rohrl explains why the GT2 was faster around the ring. Tires. Look it up if you really care, and I know you don't.

Joe, do you really believe tires would make a difference between a CGT which was bred by Porsche for racing (and they equipped it with inferior tires while trying to set a Ring record ) and the GT2 which weighs more and has almost 90 less hp?

If you believe that then you would have no difficulty in believing the the GT-R is much faster than the TT even though it weighs about 300lbs more and has the same hp.

Actually, most CGTs weigh in at around 1500 kg, so the GT2 isn't heavier. Second, turbocharged cars have a much broader torque curve than N/A cars. Yes, tyres are massively important. Porsche claimed a 7:42 Nring for the MPSC-equipped Turbo and 7:49 for one with PS2 tyres. The difference is staggering.

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Apr 16, 2008 12:18:06 AM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: nberry

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Quote:
nberry said:

Joe, do you really believe tires would make a difference between a CGT which was bred by Porsche for racing (and they equipped it with inferior tires while trying to set a Ring record ) and the GT2 which weighs more and has almost 90 less hp?

If you believe that then you would have no difficulty in believing the the GT-R is much faster than the TT even though it weighs about 300lbs more and has the same hp.

I don't believe the GT-R is faster than the TT with the same HP. But we'll never know because it makes at least 50HP more.

The CGT had street tires on it when WR did his lap at the 'ring, the GT2 had semi-slicks.

Your own signature says you'll never win a race unless you understand how tires work, so we shouldn't need to explain this to you.

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Apr 16, 2008 3:04:12 AM

lambornima: Junior; Loc: Toronto Canada; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registered on: May 13, 2007; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

asides from the Nring, on which times can be highly influenced and scewed as the track is so large, on the Hring and Autoitalia's test, the GT2 was not on par with a Carrera GT.

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Apr 16, 2008 5:39:30 AM

harryo2b: Senior; Loc: Formerly Bitburg...Land of Bier, now Oklahoma home of the twister. , United States; Posts: 664, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2003; Reply to: lambornima

Re: For all you disbelievers of the GT-R answer th

Holy hell tire technology changes so fast it's 4 years seperating the two models (CGT and GT2). Wasn't the CGT equipped with PS2s, if it were wearing MPSC then things would be in favor for the CGT once again. If tires didn't make any significant difference in tenths, hundredths, or thousandths of a second then i'm sure F1 cars wouldn't have a special blend of tire for every race.

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