Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway! - Page1

Apr 2, 2008 5:54:42 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004

Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!?

Floored the P-car yesterday (when it was "safe," alone, familiar roads wide open clean and green). Got to a "typical" 130-135mph. (210-220kph).

Of course everything is fine and amazing at that speed in a straight shot.

I doubt I'll ever come across this actual situation because I only do the straight line thing but my question is:

What's involved in taking a highway curve in these cars at high speed? Are US interstates just not built for it? Does everybody have to slow down at every curve even on the Autobahn? IOW, Top speed is for straight shots only.

I remember a while ago flooring my M3 and coming up to a "normal" gradual bend in the interstate (wide open spaces) and I got quite a scare. Nothing bad happened, nothing bad was about to happen BUT things sure started to feel strange, G-forces, closing speeds, maybe even some understeer. Luckily I got it slowed up without a mess.

Any insight would be appreciated. No matter what anybody says I'm not messing with anything other than straight lines when I get frisky.

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Apr 2, 2008 6:09:48 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!?

You need to do a tracking day. That will give you quite a few insights as to what the limits would be. Simply put, curves on American highways are NOT designed for 130+ mph. I believe it's much lower than that and oftentimes speed signs are posted along certain curves.

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Apr 2, 2008 6:24:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: atomic80

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Quote:
atomic80 said:
You need to do a tracking day. That will give you quite a few insights as to what the limits would be.

Yeah..., it keeps slipping down my priority list.

I know it's gonna be a BIIIIIG eye opener!

Thanks for the reminder.

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Apr 2, 2008 8:25:30 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

American interstate highways were designed to evacuate cities in times of emergencies at speeds up to 100 mph - in the 1950's. Except for the poor road surface in some states there are no bends severe enough to upset a modern Porsche at anything less than 140mph. That said it would alsways be best to drive the stretch you will be topping the car out on first especially if you are going to try for v-max to make certain the road surface and the bends are acceptable.

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Apr 3, 2008 8:38:27 AM

rantanplan: Pilot; Loc: Stuttgart , Germany; Posts: 355, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 7, 2006; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

in general, german autobahn is built in a way to take the curves at high speeds. that means with a car maxing out at 250km/h most curves can be taken if you know how to handle a car..this is only on the parts where there is not speed limit. However, there are lots of parts where there is no limit and u couldnt go faster then 200-210 km/h and then there are lots of long curves that can be taken at 275km/h +.
In general i would be careful doing that in the states since the highway is built for lower speed at around 80mph....
Do a trackday and learn how it feels when ur P looses grip and starts skidding... it will give u a much better feeling for ur car. afterall its the curves that makes ur P such an amazing car and not the straights...

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Apr 3, 2008 10:52:58 AM

Circe: Co-Pilot; Loc: NH, USA; Posts: 157, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 26, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Quote:
MMD said:

I know it's gonna be a BIIIIIG eye opener!

It's gonna be an eye opener alright, but not the track, it will be the tree you'll be headed for if you hit that bump or expansion joint or dead skunk part way through your curve. And it almost goes without saying that if the constabulary catches you at this or you are involved in any kind of a accident with another vehicle and you survive, they'll throw the book at you. So you round that corner at 135. Next time you're looking for 140. But what happens if that's just too fast? What happens to your $140,000 car not to mention your priceless life?

I'm not a track guy but it seems to me that's where you want to be when searching for the limit of adhesion. Leave the high speed Porsche air bag testing to Walter Rohrl.

Sorry if I'm running against the herd on this one but that's how I view the world this morning. Stay safe

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Apr 3, 2008 11:03:25 AM

Dirk911: Newbie; Loc: Belgium , Belgium; Posts: 20, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 16, 2007; Reply to: Circe

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

When I got my car in Germany, I drove home on the Autobahn which was quite curvy (heading towards Trier) but speeds around 200-220 kph were no problem. It was just fun to feel the g-forces, without it being dangerous imo.

I wouldn't risk it on a "normal" road with traffic in the opposit direction though !!

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Apr 3, 2008 1:52:23 PM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: Dirk911

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Driving fast in a straight line is a no-brainer.
Track days will help your butt o meter feel the cars movements.
Never snap lift off the throttle!!! Things can happen in a hurry! Watch Video

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Apr 3, 2008 2:00:19 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

I took my 911S on a stretch of double-lane, interstate type highway in nearby West Virginia, which has some gentle curves, and had it up to 151 mph. The car handled well, very stable, but I am not doing that again as I don't want to end up in jail (no one was within a mile of me at that time).

That said, I have signed up for some time at a nearby race track, where I will get some skid pad time on cars they provide and some basic safety training before getting my 911S on their tracks. With the cost of a helmet (I prefer getting my own rather than borrowing one of theirs), the total cost to me for two sessions @$250 each plus the helmet is only about $1,000 or so. Not too bad for getting some safe handling training and some fun - and totally legal - track time. I just have to make sure that I don't wreck the car as none of that is covered by insurance.

Note that for Porsche Club of America driver education sessions, some insurers provide coverage but if that is a concern, make sure before hand that you are covered.

Jim

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Apr 3, 2008 2:56:29 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Don't worry guys. I don't experiment with the throttle travel except on extremely rare occasions. I don't wanna wind up in the slammer with a bunch of meth addicts (would be the least painful of all the possible negative outcomes).

I also see it like those land speed guys trying to make record runs on the Bonneville Salt Flats. Sooner or later they all seem to get killed.

If this were Germany, and everything was set up for high speed: would be a different story.

I just was curious how very high speed and expressway curves interact; NOT gonna try it.

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Apr 3, 2008 3:09:36 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Jim48

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

You need DE urgently. You and your car will come alive when you learn its capabilities. Start with going fast around slower corners and work up to to high speed corners as you gain more experience and confidence.

In Germany there are sometimes bumps in the autobahn at the apex of fast bends, so I usually slow down from 300 km/h to about 250 Km/h if I am unsure of the road surface through the bend. If I know the corner, many autobahn bends can be taken at 300 km/h quite safely.

Autobahn bumps at 250 km/h are exciting and a bit turbulent but not dangerous.

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Apr 3, 2008 10:16:53 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Keep in mind that speed limits in the USA are not derived logically. They are more political than anything else. When in Germany you will find that speed limits are imposed in areas where it is reasonable to be slowing down due to the curves of a road or due to anticipated congestion. Germany's generally curvier autobahns were designed to keep the drivers' somewhat entertained, thinking that they would have less of a tendency to fall asleep at the wheel. None of that applies in the USA. In the USA all of those sorts of assumptions go out the window because of scale. While you and I as Porsche pilots love the opportunity to take interesting curves at speed, most users of the highways in the USA are truckers and people who are simply trying to get somewhere in one piece,--they are not seeking an entertainment value from their driving. Truckers are looking for best endurance and best time,--it all translates to money in their pocket. For Uncle Harry and Aunt Bessie with their 4 kids, they only want to get to Grandma's house before dark,--they aren't looking for entertainment along the way. State-side distances are just too great to make the roads pretty much anything other than straight. It's a vastly different situation.

Today's 997 can easily handle 250-300 kph on the autobahn's curvier sections because of the active suspension and spoilers. What keeps them slower on the autobahns is the congestion.

Dan

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Apr 4, 2008 10:56:36 AM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Well i think you guys are a lot more experienced in terms of driving than i actually am. I would need soon a new porsche driving school training session since i take quite often the autobahn in germany but for me it's rather difficult to stay calm and take a bend at more then 210-220 kmh, especially if you are overtaking another car or a truck.
Same relative to max speed: never reached 300 (and i have to say i never tried to push every gear hard enough to maybe reach it) and topped only 275 on the straight and i think 230 in a bend.

Other drivers are most of the times the biggest thing to worry about: you arrive at 250+ they travel at 130. quite often they are not able to judge your speed ==> they bump on the left lane when you do not expect.

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Apr 4, 2008 11:02:03 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Both the top and middle lanes (on an Autobahn) would need to be clear before I would be prepared to drive faster than 200kph. Otherwise, it's just too easy to hit someone who suddenly comes out into the top lane. I know it's great fun driving very fast but life is too precious to put it in someone else's hands/judgment.

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Apr 4, 2008 11:30:29 AM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

I agree with the DE advise

The money invested there provides a better return than any fancy option - after all the fun is in the corners

Re Autobahn: cornering at highspeed is big fun, but make sure that there are no "obstacles" around and don't enter blind corners at (too) high speed - road may be congested just behind the corner. When observing these safety rules it's pure joy to experience how well the P-cars are engineered for high speed corners

However, if you've never done it before you'll notice that the 911 feels a bit light on the front axle (more so in the RWD versions than in the AWD) - it's not a problem, but it needs a bit of exercise to get accustomed to it. Boxster/Cayman feel more planted due to the longer wheel base and more even weight distribution, but of course I don't know how they'd feel at 300 km/h

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Apr 4, 2008 12:17:53 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Well i felt in my pants the experience you are telling about Porsche-Jeck on the Autobahn near Stuttgart.
A bend, quite a long and blind one. I was running 220-230 and all of a sudden i thought "F**K" There was a massive traffic jam in front of me. I tried to brake as hard as i could without having other cars behind me hitting my back and i could barely stop my car 30 cm from the one in front of me.
That was my first super scary time on my 996TT and since then i've promised myself never ever again to enter so fast in a blind corner on normal roads.

Relative to the feeling of having a light car at the front i have to say that this is more and more evident as far as you drive old 911s. My 993C4s was a lot lighter in fast corners then the 996TT and i reckon this to be due to both better aerodynamic on the 996TT and to a broken spoiler i had in the last few months with my 993.

You guys made me remember something: my first experience aside a professional driver. We were on a motorway, north of italy and i was driving my 993. I took this corner at approximatly 160 and i said...wow i'm running fast. From the passenger seat the comment was: why are you so scared and are you driving so nervous. I can feel it from the car.
I said: because i'm taking the bend at high speed and i think that maybe 180 is the maximum i can do there. And he replied "really?...Naaaaa.....". So we took the first exit and he told me "now i give a hint of what your car can really do." He asked me to step aside. Took the driver's seat and went back so to do again the same part of road.
Arriving to the bend our speed was 280 and i though: ok now i will brake: He did it at least 50 mt later and with a lot more energy and then took the bend at 240. the car was a bit nervous when entering the bend but kept perfectly stable during the all curve....

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Apr 4, 2008 12:54:07 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Thank you for sharing your experiences, silvershadow

Yes, I know - a Pro behind the steering wheel of your car is very helpful to show you two things: we're all bloody amateurs only + the P-car's limit is quite another story than the driver's limit

Experienced the same thing last year in Spa-Francorchamps. To make it even more interesting the Pro showed me what he could do with my car in the wet

I went home crying

And of course you're right with the more nervous feeling in the old aircooled babys. My neighbour scared to me to death when he gave me a lift in his brandnew Turbo (930) some 30 years ago

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Apr 4, 2008 3:26:44 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

A word of caution. Often highways do not have the traction of race tracks. They serve different purposes. Whereas on many tracks your able to negotiate a high speed turn as a result of a combination high adhesion surface and tires that will not be the case with most highways.

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Apr 4, 2008 3:30:06 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

LOL. Interesting and great stuff! Thanks you guys.

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Apr 4, 2008 3:33:14 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Quote:
nberry said:
A word of caution. Often highways do not have the traction of race tracks. They serve different purposes. Whereas on many tracks your able to negotiate a high speed turn as a result of a combination high adhesion surface and tires that will not be the case with most highways.

Yeah, good observation. What's more just think how the fun evaporates when there's a hunk of somebody's missing muffler in your Vmax path.

Gotta quit now and try to forget what I just wrote.

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Apr 4, 2008 3:39:53 PM

Nugget: Co-Pilot; Loc: Houston Texas USA , United States; Posts: 237, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 29, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Quote:
MMD said:Gotta quit now and try to forget what I just wrote.

No, you just gotta take your car to a track! Simple solution.

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Apr 4, 2008 4:28:12 PM

TEE: Veteran; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 929, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 5, 2003; Reply to: Nugget

Re: Say you do135mph-what about curves in highway!

Like with any curve you need the right entry speed (for you and the car which is not necessarily the same...) to make the exit. the same holds true on the highway. there are quite a few "bends" you can take very fast but as said above track driving will give you a better sense in a safe environment. There is nothing more humble than to see a good driver take a turn at 100mph where you think that 50mph is already ridicously fast... so in short not all about outright speed...

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