Mar 26, 2008 2:27:38 AM
- ADias
- Rennteam Pro
- Loc: Southwest USA , United States
- Posts: 2495, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 9, 2004
- Reply to: Leawood911
Mar 26, 2008 2:27:38 AM
Mar 26, 2008 2:28:53 AM
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Leawood911 said:Quote:
swajames said:Quote:
69bossnine said:
If I'm not mistaken, the Tip Turbo posts slower trap-speeds, which indicates the flip-side of the coin, faster full-boost shifts are at the expense of less h.p. to the wheels...
Car & Driver's 1/4 mile test posted a higher trap speed with the tiptronic, and the 6 speed was also slower to 160.
Take away the new 997TT launch control and a manual would smoke it! For example look at the 996 TT Tip. My 997 S w/6 speed is much quicker to 60!
My choice will alway be to go with a manual. Mark my words - the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not. Why do you think the PDK has taken so long to deliver?
Mar 26, 2008 2:34:40 PM
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nberry said:
You obviously possess skills most drivers do not have (certainly not me). I suppose with your shifting skills against a poseur driving a Tip, you will prevail. Take a factory driver, you would have to be absolute perfect to stay with him.
Around a track, it is not in dispute that a PDK is better, faster and as much fun if not more. Tell me, if you could do a time around a track let say the Ring in 7.50 driving a Tip and 7.55 driving a manual, which would you prefer and be more fun? Think about it. If the fun is in the shifting but losing time why not buy a Miata and be done with it. You can shift your brains out while losing.
To me buying a performance car is about achieving it maximum PERFORMANCE as the manufacturer intended. For an example, Ferrari is on record stating the 430 was designed to perform best using an F1 tranny. I will wager that when Porsche introduces PDK it will no be a contest between the manual equipped car and PDK. I will also wager that the majority of Porsche's sold will be equipped with PDK about 3 years after PDK introduction.
Mar 26, 2008 3:07:12 PM
Mar 26, 2008 3:23:17 PM
Mar 26, 2008 3:28:05 PM
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Leawood911 said:
- the PDK will eat clutches because drivers will abuse them like conventional automatics - which they are not.
Mar 26, 2008 3:40:30 PM
Mar 26, 2008 4:06:54 PM
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nberry said:
The initial post asked the question if PDK would be faster than manual and indicated that the times given by Porsche for manual could not be duplicated.
Your point regarding which is more fun is subjective and would be answered differently by what the persons goal is. To many Porsche owners shifting is more fun because they have not experience a true PDK system. When Ferrari came out with the F1 many purists complained. Today, over 90% of Ferrari's are ordered with F1. Those that got manual have a hell of a time selling their car. Why? Because the F1 is a blast to drive and manual IS OLD TECHNOLOGY.
I have no doubt that since you are so skilled at manual shifting you enjoy it more. Very understandable. But let me conclude by relaying a story involving Dave Murrey and Hurley Haywood both top factory drivers for Porsche.
I rode with both as they raced around Road Atlanta racing one another in manual Porsche's. After the races I asked each what their perfect Porsche would be. Hurley said "Turbo with Tip" and Murrey said "Boxster S with Tip".
Mar 26, 2008 4:12:48 PM
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KresoF1 said:
Also one interesting fact from VAG-about 95% of buyers of DSG equiped cars NEVER use paddles to shift gears. They use D programm... I think that this fact speaks for itself...
Mar 26, 2008 5:08:05 PM
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nberry said:
KresoF1 I cannot comment on the authenticity of the study that 95% use the DSG in D but if true I can provide an explanation. 95% of the time you are NOT in race or high performance mode. Your sitting in traffic or cruising.
Because I take my 430 out for entertainment and not commuting, I have yet driven my car in D and I have 12,000 miles on my car.
Regarding reliability, here I will agree with you to this extent. I have not had any problems with F1. However, the wear is quicker than manual. If you drive in city exclusively the F1 has a life span of about 20-25,000 miles. If a combination of city and highway more toward 30,000.
However since most do not reach those mileage limits, it is not an issue. Should they do so, the fix is about $5000.
I guess it is an individual preference but my prediction remains. Once Porsche introduces the PDK, the manual in Porsche will go the way of the manual in Ferrari.
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KresoF1 said:
Nick,
I will jump in here since I had a chance to drive press M3 with M-DKG(M-DCT in English aka DSG from BMW) and I was really supriesed. It does everything right but at the same time it kills the sheer driving and control experience. Belive me this BMW M-DKG is light years better then Ferrari F1 in your F430 or even Superfast in Scuderia. It mimics at the same time excellent autobox(Aston DB9s for example) and sequential manual(Superfast in Scuderia). My personal observation is that this gearbox does everything right but... I would do some things differently with manual! Bipping the throttle on every downshifts is simply said idi0tic thing. Why? Imagine yourself driving in town and your DSG is bipping the throttle on almost every downshift. When you drive in full attack mode this M-DKG is 99% as good as it gets... 1% remain for removal of sheer driving pleasure. It is faster the manual in average hands. BUT it removes something from driving experince-just my humble opinion. AI in M-DKG is also having its own moods so, sometimes gearbox actually request different driving style then the one you used to...
Honestly, as much as I was impressed at first my opinion about it is NOT for me. I hope that my impression would give some clue about forthcoming PDK from Porsche. For Tiptronic lovers it is a must. For manual lovers it is NOT.
Also one interesting fact from VAG-about 95% of buyers of DSG equiped cars NEVER use paddles to shift gears. They use D programm... I think that this fact speaks for itself...
About 90% of Ferrari's today are indeed equiped with F1... Just another fact is also that 99% of F1 equiped Ferrari's have around 4000km's on clock maximally... Otherwise this stupid sequential manual could die... I know four(!) owners of BMW M6, Ferrari F430(2) and Lamborghini Gallaro who killed their sequential manuals in first 10000km's... Just ask zzboba here how reliable his F430F1 was(he was actually driving his car a lot! Unlike most F430 owners...)?
Sequential manuals are in general NOT reliable enough...
What about DSG, S-Tronic, M-DKG or PDK? Are these DSG gearboxes reliable? Only time will tell...
Mar 27, 2008 11:50:46 AM
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Mar 27, 2008 5:12:58 PM