Crown

bluelines:

Whoopsy:

bluelines:

Whoopsy has already spilled the beans when he was in SA. The GT4 will get the detuned 4.0l engine and manual gearbox from the GT3.

I know it will have 4.0L and I was assuming the GT3 engine back then.

Are you saying there is another 4.0l engine?

Seems we could see a development of the 3.8L in the last GT4 (with longer stroke crankshaft and 420hp).  In many ways this makes more sense than trying to lose 100 hp from the 4.0L motorsport engine.

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18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Guest:

On the 960, I'm disappointed that they won't build one, but what market position would it occupy?

Presumably it would have been a mid-engined twin of the next generation Huracan and R8 (provided they continue to make the R8).  So it would be priced in between R8 and Huracan, in a price segment that already includes several top tier 911 models, whether GTx cars or Turbo cars.  And what powerplant would it have?  Surely not the Audi V10.  Either a turbo flat six or turbo V8 from Panamera/Cayenne.

How about a newly developed V8 Biturbo? Or why not a V10 Biturbo? Porsche is already collaborating with Audi with several engine projects, so why not a V10 Biturbo? Such an engine would keep the Huracan special as well and would "fit" a 960 pretty well too. Carrera GT "tradition" and all...even if it wasn't a turbo.

So what would Porsche do about the 911s in the same segment?  Would the 960 be a more luxurious GT car than the 911?  In that case, build a front-engined car, a two door Panamera.  If the 960 were a hardcore track special sports car, who would buy an RS, whether GT3 or GT2?  Or what if the customer base shunned the 960 and bought the RS 911 instead?  The GT2 RS is one of the quickest road cars in the world around a track; how could they make something materially faster?

I think a 960, a two(!) seater would serve a different customer base and purpose. If could make those happy who don't want a Huracan for obvious (image, maintenance, snobbism, whatever ) reasons or who just want something different than a 911. I know so many people who are fed up with the 911, enough is enough. I love the 911 but I got bored with it. Even if Porsche would put a 800 hp engine in the next 911 Turbo, I wouldn't get it.

Also, Porsche could build a 960 S, a 960 GT, a 960 GT3...so many possibilities here with a different (mid engined, supercar) basis.

I get it, this won't be a car selling in the thousands but it would keep customers, who would otherwise leave, within the brand and it would be a good improvement of image in a world, where Porsche starts with the Mission E and many other SUV and sedan variants.

Alternatively, what if they tried to position the 960 as a Superfast / Aventador competitor (a market segment that is not as crowded); a Porsche based off of an Audi would be a tough sell against an Italian V12 even if the Porsche could do the Nordschleife in 5 minutes in reverse.

The 960 could be Huracan and Aventador "competitor". No need to two different models or a 960 based on the Aventador, unless Porsche wants to raise production cost and sell this puppy for 500k.  Not sure how much of a success this car would have at such a price tag.

Bottom line - why go to the effort to develop a generic supercar that is nonessential to the brand's model line and competes directly with the most aspirational 911 models?

 

Generic? So what is so special about the Carrera GT then? Or the 918 for that matter? 

Porsche would need to make sure it doesn't become a "generic" Porsche.

Right now, I do not find a single Porsche model I am interested in. If I could afford many different sportscars at the same time, I would probably add a 991.2 GT3 RS to my stable but everything else? Not interesting. Not even the GT2 RS.

I enjoy driving the E63 S more than my 991.2 Carrera GTS Cab and this is a fine sportscar.

The cars are getting more and more expensive and more and more perfect but what about the emotional part? You want emotions, you need to get a GT model? 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

The cars are getting more and more expensive and more and more perfect but what about the emotional part? You want emotions, you need to get a GT model? 

precisely a current GT3 manual or previous 991 R or the coming Speedster. the rest is way too perfect for emotion.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

SciFrog:

Porsche should stick to 911 shape and buy out McLaren... McLaren is too much of a competition now and still weak enough to be gobbled up in the VW empire. This will render the 960 irrelevant.

Sounds like a good idea 

Grant:

bluelines:

Whoopsy:

bluelines:

Whoopsy has already spilled the beans when he was in SA. The GT4 will get the detuned 4.0l engine and manual gearbox from the GT3.

I know it will have 4.0L and I was assuming the GT3 engine back then.

Are you saying there is another 4.0l engine?

Seems we could see a development of the 3.8L in the last GT4 (with longer stroke crankshaft and 420hp).  In many ways this makes more sense than trying to lose 100 hp from the 4.0L motorsport engine.

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

the-missile:

RC:

The cars are getting more and more expensive and more and more perfect but what about the emotional part? You want emotions, you need to get a GT model? 

precisely a current GT3 manual or previous 991 R or the coming Speedster. the rest is way too perfect for emotion.

I'm afraid I see things a bit differently. Not a fan of manual and the standard GT3 is, compared to the GT3 RS, almost boring.  Still a fantastic car of course but I would get the GT3 RS. Go RS or go bust. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

declined it, not interested in playstation remote wannabe experience anymore

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GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

declined it, not interested in playstation remote wannabe experience anymore

Yeah, I hear that often from new(er) sportscars...until the drivers crash them and realize that even if the car is foolproof, the driver often isn't.   Take my E63 for example: Pretty easy to be fast as hell in this puppy but oh boy do you get in trouble if you forget the weight of this thing...especially when it comes to braking. Physics can be "bent" but not beaten.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

I hear you for the outrageous weight ...I can feel it each and every time I drive madam's GTS.

but frankly, I have no complain against the pdk. it is very good...probably too good this is one of the reason I don't want to go back to it for now.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

I hear you for the outrageous weight ...I can feel it each and every time I drive madam's GTS.

but frankly, I have no complain against the pdk. it is very good...probably too good this is one of the reason I don't want to go back to it for now.

PDK is great on GT models, good on 991.2...not good enough though. Reminds me a lot of the Mercedes MCT, which is weird (speaking of changing gears manually), speed wise and feeling-wise.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

I was speaking only with all GT cars experience tested. I have low experience on PDK 991.2 regular 911 to give any credible feedback.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

I was speaking only with all GT cars experience tested. I have low experience on PDK 991.2 regular 911 to give any credible feedback.

I wonder if Porsche artificially "created" this difference or if it is really a technical thing. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

I'm the opposite to you in gearbox RC.

PDK is too good but I got bored of it.  Driving my PDK GTS CC only in auto mode like an automatic.

For fun driving in city or on track, give me a manual any day even if that means I will be 1-2 seconds slower per lap.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

How about a newly developed V8 Biturbo? Or why not a V10 Biturbo? Porsche is already collaborating with Audi with several engine projects, so why not a V10 Biturbo? Such an engine would keep the Huracan special as well and would "fit" a 960 pretty well too. Carrera GT "tradition" and all...even if it wasn't a turbo.

I think a 960, a two(!) seater would serve a different customer base and purpose. If could make those happy who don't want a Huracan for obvious (image, maintenance, snobbism, whatever ) reasons or who just want something different than a 911. I know so many people who are fed up with the 911, enough is enough. I love the 911 but I got bored with it. Even if Porsche would put a 800 hp engine in the next 911 Turbo, I wouldn't get it.

Also, Porsche could build a 960 S, a 960 GT, a 960 GT3...so many possibilities here with a different (mid engined, supercar) basis.

I get it, this won't be a car selling in the thousands but it would keep customers, who would otherwise leave, within the brand and it would be a good improvement of image in a world, where Porsche starts with the Mission E and many other SUV and sedan variants.

The 960 could be Huracan and Aventador "competitor". No need to two different models or a 960 based on the Aventador, unless Porsche wants to raise production cost and sell this puppy for 500k.  Not sure how much of a success this car would have at such a price tag.

Generic? So what is so special about the Carrera GT then? Or the 918 for that matter? 

Porsche would need to make sure it doesn't become a "generic" Porsche.

Right now, I do not find a single Porsche model I am interested in. If I could afford many different sportscars at the same time, I would probably add a 991.2 GT3 RS to my stable but everything else? Not interesting. Not even the GT2 RS.

I enjoy driving the E63 S more than my 991.2 Carrera GTS Cab and this is a fine sportscar.

The cars are getting more and more expensive and more and more perfect but what about the emotional part? You want emotions, you need to get a GT model? 

First, thanks for replying, Christian.

Is the newly developed V8 biturbo not the V8 in the new Panamera and Cayenne?  And isn't the V10 dead in the next gen R8 (if it happens) / Huracan?  What would be in line with Carrera GT "tradition" about a turbocharged car with a PDK transmission?

How would Porsche take a car that began life as part of the R8/Huracan family tree and position it as a ~$500K Aventador competitor?  Not much plays in that small market: Aventador, 812 Superfast, the forthcoming 720 "LT" variant likely; any others?

The reason I referred to the 960 as (potentially) generic is this: 

Chassis shared with 1-2 other mid-engine supercars that already have numerous sub variants (ie, what would Porsche receive that would be special and differentiate it or even elevate it vs. the Audi and Lamborghini?)

Powerplant likely shared with something else (Porsche V8; V10 from Audi; what else?); wouldn't be a bespoke or special motor in that case

As a result, what would be "Porsche" about it vs. a 911 that would perform similarly?

Guest:

 

First, thanks for replying, Christian.

You don't have to thank me, sorry I didn't see your post earlier, it was an interesting question.

Is the newly developed V8 biturbo not the V8 in the new Panamera and Cayenne?  And isn't the V10 dead in the next gen R8 (if it happens) / Huracan?  What would be in line with Carrera GT "tradition" about a turbocharged car with a PDK transmission?

Porsche doesn't have to use the same engine they use in the Panamera/Cayenne/new Audis for the 960. There can be variants of this engine or maybe even a completely new development for the purpose of serving Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley and even Bugatti. 

A turbo charged V10 would still be a V10, wouldn't it be?  Also, a manual transmission in a super sportscar is absurd these days. If Porsche had a modern "proper" PDK when the Carrera GT came out, they would have used it.

How would Porsche take a car that began life as part of the R8/Huracan family tree and position it as a ~$500K Aventador competitor?  Not much plays in that small market: Aventador, 812 Superfast, the forthcoming 720 "LT" variant likely; any others?

The R8 needs to go if Porsche want to establish a 960. There is no room for an Audi here...it would be counter-productive. For Audi, the R8 makes zero sense. ZERO. It is time Audi understands this.

Nobody cares about how it started, everyone will care about the tech, the performance and how this car looks. I think many people, more than Porsche realizes, are waiting for the 960. Is it profitable? Probably not, at first. This is why they don't want to build one. It doesn't make enough money. 

The reason I referred to the 960 as (potentially) generic is this: 

Chassis shared with 1-2 other mid-engine supercars that already have numerous sub variants (ie, what would Porsche receive that would be special and differentiate it or even elevate it vs. the Audi and Lamborghini?)

Again, no Audi R8. The Porsche could differentiate itself in many ways. It would be futile to discuss every little detail here.

Powerplant likely shared with something else (Porsche V8; V10 from Audi; what else?); wouldn't be a bespoke or special motor in that case

Porsche could use a V8 Biturbo, while Lamborghini uses the V10 Biturbo. Or both could use the V10 Biturbo but in different setups, with a different sound, different power figures and so on. When the engine is great, nobody asks where it is coming from.

As a result, what would be "Porsche" about it vs. a 911 that would perform similarly?

 

Porsche cannot compete any longer in the super sportscars game with the 911. This is not only about performance and power.

I mean, c'mon seriously? Porsche can make a Macan, a Cayenne, a Panamera, a Mission E, a Cayman and whatnot but they cannot make a 960? Something to compete with the big guns in the sportscar league? 

Two products are missing from Porsche's product line: A GT Coupe a la BMW M6/M8 or Mercedes S Class Coupe and a 960. Again: Would they be profitable? Probably not, at first. Porsche needs to take a risk here but a risk they (VW Group) probably won't take because there is already Lamborghini with the Huracan/Aventador and Bentley with their Coupe. Porsche will regret not entering this market but like I said before, I am just one customer and apparently it doesn't matter if my next sportscar is coming from Lamborghini or McLaren. Let's be honest: Lamborghini got too expensive for me. 3500 EUR per month for a Huracan? Seriously? I probably get a 720S for the same money. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

Why bother make a 960 at 350 k with V8 or V10 biturbo when they can sell as many 911 V6 bi turbo as they want for same price?

Inspirine:

Why bother make a 960 at 350 k with V8 or V10 biturbo when they can sell as many 911 V6 bi turbo as they want for same price?

 

They love selling V6 911's indeed! 

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Porker:

They love selling V6 911's indeed! 

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Joost:

Porker:

They love selling V6 911's indeed! 

V at 180°

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Inspirine:

Why bother make a 960 at 350 k with V8 or V10 biturbo when they can sell as many 911 V6 bi turbo as they want for same price?

1. At 350k for the base model, it wouldn't sell

2. They need a competitor in the supercar category (the 911 Turbo S won't cut it, the GT2 RS is too track focused)

3. V6? 

4. This isn't only about making money but also reputation and marketing. Too many Cayenne, Macan, Panamera, Mission E, etc. lately...

5. Sometimes, a company needs to take a risk to introduce a completely new product to shape the future of the company. They did it with the Cayenne (without it, Porsche wouldn't exist in it's current form anymore), the Panamera and the Macan. Why not with a sportscar?

6. The platform synergy with Lamborghini would allow Porsche to still make a profit with a 960, even if it (probably) wouldn't be as high as with the 911 or other products.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

The notional 960 sportscar would cannibalize with the upper level expensive 911s which contribute a huge profit for VW/Porsche.

Second, it would reduce the prestige of the 911, which is even now an iconic range of cars, besides being very lucrative.

Third, if the 960 was allowed to be as fast as Lamborghini at a lower price this would damage the cachet of Lamborghini; if not, the 960 would be just competing with "lowly" Audi brand and therefore be perceived as an overpriced R8 with a different posh badge.

The 960 might make sense to the enthusiast but not to the businessman.

IMO Porsche need a front-engined luxuryGT/sports coupe to take sales from BMW, Mercedes, Maserati, Ferrari etc. The market for such a car is much bigger than for a mid-engined/supersports and it won't damage the sales of the 911.

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"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

I assume it's difficult for Porsche to place a product such an hypothetical 960 within the current line up. It'll cannibalize highest performance 911s despite its engine position or its number of cylinders.

They also have to be very careful with the pricing. In the +250k€ price range the competition is fierce. Currently the 911 has no real competition -price and performance wise bearing in mind its usability/practicality w/ 4 seats and its stealthy/under the radar look. A mid engine car with its supercar/918ish look fighting againt Ferrari, Mclaren and Lambo for a piece of the cake is a whole different story.

True, it seems stupid not to squeeze Porsche's racing heritage instead of pumping up Audi's brand with the R8 nonsense but it's not today's decission, the mistake has already been done several years ago.

reginos:

The notional 960 sportscar would cannibalize with the upper level expensive 911s which contribute a huge profit for VW/Porsche.

True but so do other Porsche models like the Panamera Turbo/S.

Second, it would reduce the prestige of the 911, which is even now an iconic range of cars, besides being very lucrative.

I doubt that. The 911 is an icon.

Third, if the 960 was allowed to be as fast as Lamborghini at a lower price this would damage the cachet of Lamborghini; if not, the 960 would be just competing with "lowly" Audi brand and therefore be perceived as an overpriced R8 with a different posh badge.

Lower price? The 960 would be in the same price range like the Huracan, performance similar as well. 

The R8 has to go, i said it before.

The 960 might make sense to the enthusiast but not to the businessman.

True...probably. Maybe not. Porsche needs to take a risk here.

IMO Porsche need a front-engined luxuryGT/sports coupe to take sales from BMW, Mercedes, Maserati, Ferrari etc. The market for such a car is much bigger than for a mid-engined/supersports and it won't damage the sales of the 911.

Also true but I think that Porsche has done "enough" in this domain and will do even more with the introduction of the Mission E and a Coupe variant of the Cayenne.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mini JCW (2015)

The "960" could be argued either way really. Many pros and cons.

The GT coupe however, is a no-brainer. I always loved the various versions of BMW 6 and Porsche should bring back the 928 concept in a contemporary car. A car sportier than BMW, as luxurious as M-B that would eclipse the Maseratis the Astons the Portofinos etc. Very feasible given the Panamera basis and a guaranteed sales success IMO.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Not sure the GT coupe is such a no-brainer. At least here in the US, such cars are not selling well. New MB S-class coupes are being discounted $20K+; BMW discontinued the 2 door 6 series. Would I love to see a 928 replacement? Absolutely, especially if it had the styling and engineering innovations the 928 had in its day. However, I'm not sure a front engine coupe would sell much better than a 960, if the 960 is positioned below the Huracan and company, closer in price to the Turbo. So no V10.

KMM:

Not sure the GT coupe is such a no-brainer. At least here in the US, such cars are not selling well. New MB S-class coupes are being discounted $20K+; BMW discontinued the 2 door 6 series. Would I love to see a 928 replacement? Absolutely, especially if it had the styling and engineering innovations the 928 had in its day. However, I'm not sure a front engine coupe would sell much better than a 960, if the 960 is positioned below the Huracan and company, closer in price to the Turbo. So no V10.

BMW have discontinued the 2 door 6 series because they will replace it with the more expensive and technically advanced 8 series, which from pre-tests looks like an excellent proposition. An engineering tour de force even more than the new M5.

A Porsche GT coupe would have an easier task to face the established competition than the 960, which would have to prove itself against top supersports from Ferrari and now McLaren where customers are nitpicking about lap times, minute acceleration differences, sounds, emotions etc.

In my way of thinking the GT will be a certain success (perhaps not in the USA as much) whereas the 960 will be a risk.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

A Porsche GT CONVERTIBLE. That’s what they need to do.

A 4 seater Panamera Coupe convertible but that handles like a sport car and not like a sedan. Basically take a Lusso and chop the roof. Or the Porsche version of the GrandCabrio.

For me to consider it tough they would have to make it really really good and exotic looking and with ultra high end cachet.

There is already a new 928 on sale, it just has a Mercedes badge.

Porsche is already offering the alternative to the mid engine cars like Ferrari and McLaren with the 911.

Some people want a sports car, but they can't afford to give up trunk space or people space, and the 911, in the Turbo S variant, offers the performance of those sports car with the practicality that they needed. 

If one is out and needed to go pick up a couple kids from school, they can't do it in their 488. They can however do it in the 911.

Someone went shopping on a weekend, say bought a big Birkin bag, the box alone won't fit in a 488 or a 720S, it will however, fit inside a Turbo S. 

You conveniently forgot the California/Portofino... It can do anything a 911 can do but on top of it it looks good and is fun to drive, it has a good size trunk and is coupe/convertible... Plus it has somewhat better resale value. The California is the car we use the most in the summer. We can’t seem to be able to get rid of it and replace whereas I would not even think of buying at 911 TT convertible because they don't look that good, they are somewhat common mixed in all the 911, they have the same interior as a $60k Boxster and more importantly once optioned properly are vastly overpriced. Plus they don’t sound that good (tone and way too quiet). A convertible GT3 with rear seats and no wing would solve a lot of the issues.

The Ferrari even has the same flaw as the 911: eventually the rear seats are too small.