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GT said:
Dont know about the secans but the Evoms did the job for me. They also increase airflow and slightly turbo boost.
I would be interested in finding out what the Secans can do better..
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MMD said:
FWIW, Excellence mag May 2008, page 5 advertises, "Werks One Composite Intercoolers" for the 997 turbo.
"Composite" sounds good to me.
Brand new product? Not even on their website yet.
Phone numbers:
800.775.2456
T 954.946.2136
Website:
werksone.com
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shonuf said:
i have rs tuning intercoolers. the cores are made by secan, a frence aerospace firm. to my knowledge, these are the only intercoolers which utilize the secan cores. the difference from stock and from the other available intercoolers is that the foil is much more densly packed. i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!
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shonuf said:
. i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!
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TB993tt said:Quote:
shonuf said:
. i don't think that the difference between these and say the evo intercoolers is worth the high price which is approxamately $18000!
The problem with guessing which intercoolers to buy is it seems virtually no manufacturers actually test their wares in a meanigful way but rely on the marketing BS like in the ad above which may or may not be true - who really cares if the thing flows 30% more ? what we should know is does the unit give lower IATs than the stock unit and how much lower ?
RS Tuning quote that the IAT will be maintained within a maximum of 25DegC over ambient for Secan apllication on THEIR engines (they cannot speak for other tuned engines since if those engines produce more heat through boost/non ideal component matching it obviously skews the RS numbers)
I have never seen any other manufacturer quote these sorts of numbers or any objective tests done on any other intercooler -that is why IMO other intercoolers are in the "snake oil" category until PROVEN otherwise.
To put some bones on my ramblings - Anyone remember the "V" flow TTP intercooler for the 993tt ? They were made by TTP sold by all tuners inc Cargraphic, FVD and advertised as "V" flow 50% greater core area etc....
I bought one of these and used it on my first RST 520hp engine (they told me it was worse than stock but I didn't listen)
Eventually I did a back to back test against a stock I/C - basically under same atmo conditions I ran each I/C at around 110mph and let the IAT stabilise - the stock one geave cooler air by about 5%....I spoke to the manufacturer who didn't really want to know and just rambled about "as long as the IAT is below 50DegC it is good !" Since then I have been a Sceptic about I/Cs.
I have done objective testing on the latest Secan offering in the 993tt application and it truely is an amazing bit of kit - On my RST engine full throttle at 7000rpm in 6th gear on a 9DegC day the IAT was 20DegC. Another 993tt on the same day with stock I/C was at IAT 45DegC near full speed.
The main benefit on the Secan I am told is when the ambient temps get higher like 30-40DegC they really contain the IAT down to ~50-55DegC.
Remember this is important as your Motronic starts retarding timing and reducing boost at around IAT 38DegC so from there upwards you are losing your horsepower......
I stand to be corrected and would love to see other testing done on the myriad of I/Cs available but the silence is deafening
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AAHTT said:
Question: How much time or distance at full throttle do you think a modified 997TT requires before it becomes useful to upgrade the intercoolers?
Is it even necessary for someone who lives in a moderate climate and never pushes the car over a mile or 30 seconds at a time (i.e. usa)?
What about during track time?
Thanks
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GT said:
God TB993tt you are going to make spend the money for the Secans!!!
I did not have chance to measure the IATs of stock ICs vs the EVOMs before I swapped but as maybe a point of reference my car got 50bhp with the addition of the evoms plus CG exhaust (from stock exhaust converted with 200 cells). So 650hp from 600hp but.. most importantly the car had that power on the road! (while before it did not).
Now the Evoms ICs were at least worth 30-35hp on the dyno and much more in real life conditions.
Sportec had not advised me to change ICs but I was just told that after my car, they also tried on a few others and now admitted that they make significant power on 997tt.
However the evidence you present on the Secans makes me think again.. When I finally get the durametric diagnostic I ll try to run some tests.
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GT said:
I will try to ask sportec as to why they think they made such difference but I believe that indeed lower IATs allowed them to fine tune boost more aggressively. Also I felt an improvement in response and turbo lag which points to more optimal ignition timing adopted from the ecu. Finally consumption went down as well as they can was running too rich before to cool things down..
Hence I believe that in my application, trying for 600+hp with modded vtgs but stock ICs was not ideal at all.. I think better ICs should be one of the first things one should consider changing for a 997tt when trying for this sort of power.
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GT said:
Oh well how about, 0-200 in 10.7 (or worse really) vs 9.6 seconds? The 200-300kms difference should be in the order of 5-6 seconds min even though I did not measure it before very accurately. Ans those measurement where at 30 deg ambient temperature (summer).
The point u are trying to make is exactly the reverse of the point I was making; the intercoolers made my car a hell of a lot faster in real world driving, forget about the dyno!
My sportec stage 3 (with the ICs) did 100-200 6.1secs on the vbox and 200-300 in about 13-14 seconds (stopwatch). It was nowhere near that before.
Those numbers are consistent with the 620hp sportec stage 3 (no ICs) is that they are 0.3 or so faster 0-200 and 2-3 seconds faster the 300kms.
One thing to mention though, with the addition of the ICs they had to retune the ecu to accomadate for the airflow difference (and also with even more reduced backpressure of the CG exhaust).
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GT said: Will those IAT readings be any meaningfull when ambient temp is that low to begin with?
Well it's hard to find good information about intercoolers but a friend of mine builds intercoolers for a German tuner and all testing is done on my car,I log all results with Durametric.These intercoolers have the same dimensions like oem,you just need to shave a little bit of from the plastic ducts,you also have to do this for all aftermarket Ic's
Here are the results with stock Ic's
You can see a raise of 40.5 degrees celcius at 244km/h
Here is a test with my Ic's:
At 279km/h it only raises temperature with 20.3 degrees celcius wich is a huge improvement over stock