Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT... - Page1

Feb 29, 2008 6:06:05 PM

Flagg: Co-Pilot; Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates; Posts: 152, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 29, 2007

CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Hello everyone! Ive just got my hands on a copy of the April CAR magazine and thought it was quite an interesting read, although it doesnt look like theyre very fond of Porsches

Ive scanned it all up for some peeps on another forum and thought you guys might be interested to read it too

. Enjoy;

If you find any hard to read say so and ill resize it etc.

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Feb 29, 2008 6:46:06 PM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: Flagg

GT-R power output vs 997TT...

According to Nissan, the GT-R engine produces maximum power output of 480PS or 473bhp at 6400rpm, implying 271bhp/tonne...

...but this maximum is described as "net power output", as follows:

*The engine power output values indicated in this catalog are all net power output values.
* Engine power output can be indicated as 'Net power output' or 'Gross power output'.
'Gross' values are estimations of power output of the engine alone. 'Net' values are estimations of when the engine is assembled onto the vehicle. For estimations of the same gasoline engines, 'Net' values are approximately 15% lower than 'Gross' values according to JAMA research.

...that would imply that the GT-R engine produces maximum "gross power output" of 564PS or 556bhp!

...and given an official curb weight of 1740kg, that would represent a power/weight ratio of 319bhp/tonne!

...which could explain why the GT-R is apparently quicker than a 997TT with 298bhp/tonne!?

So does the GT-R really defy the laws of physics, or just have more power than indicated in the press?

...any ideas???

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Feb 29, 2008 6:54:28 PM

AAHTT: Senior; Loc: san diego , United States; Posts: 654, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 21, 2006; Reply to: Boxster Coupe GTS

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Quote:
Boxster Coupe GTS said:
According to Nissan, the GT-R engine produces maximum power output of 480PS or 473bhp at 6400rpm, implying 271bhp/tonne...

...but this maximum is described as "net power output", as follows:

*The engine power output values indicated in this catalog are all net power output values.
* Engine power output can be indicated as 'Net power output' or 'Gross power output'.
'Gross' values are estimations of power output of the engine alone. 'Net' values are estimations of when the engine is assembled onto the vehicle. For estimations of the same gasoline engines, 'Net' values are approximately 15% lower than 'Gross' values according to JAMA research.

...that would imply that the GT-R engine produces maximum "gross power output" of 564PS or 556bhp!

...and given an official curb weight of 1740kg, that would represent a power/weight ratio of 319bhp/tonne!

...which could explain why the GT-R is apparently quicker than a 997TT with 298bhp/tonne!?

So does the GT-R really defy the laws of physics, or just have more power than indicated in the press?

...any ideas???

Nothing defies the laws of physics and we all kind of knew the hp numbers were deflated, but now it looks more official.
Still, pretty impressive handling for a fat car

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Feb 29, 2008 7:21:24 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: AAHTT

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

>>>although it doesnt look like theyre very fond of Porsches

I am actually happy to see the Turbo in all the comparison tests, win or lose. The day that it doesn't get "beat" in some comparison test, is the day that it has ceased to be relevant as a great benchmark.

The Porsche 997 Turbo is NOT a perfect car and there will be MANY more cars that beat it in some aspects. Just remember though, that all things considered, there is still no reasonable competition for near-supercar level daily driver. One that makes you proud to be seen in, that is.

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Feb 29, 2008 8:23:22 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: cannga

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

I posted a couple of threads a few months ago indicating that the Nissan HP numbers were creatively reported. With the weight of that car and the times it puts out, the 473HP figure would have to be at the wheels, not the crank. Having said that, it's a good car for the money. If the TT put out 473HP at the wheels it would walk away from the GT-R.

What impressed me most about that article though is the showing the new M3 put in. My dealer will have one available for a test drive next week and I will certainly post my observations after that.

Thanks a lot for posting, good find!

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Feb 29, 2008 10:14:04 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Everyone give the press cars with more power. Some, in my experience with a plus of 10%, some with more...without names...some do even more...

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Feb 29, 2008 10:43:11 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Poor 997TT everyone is knocking it

It's not a perfect car but which one of them is. The beauty is in the eye of beholder. I am no world champion race car driver but i could drive a car and merely critize it despite how perfect many gr8 drivers in the world think it might be. Hey a cheese burger might taste as good as steak from time to time but it's still ground beef and not a fillet. There is only one 997TT slow or fast, ugly or pretty, stable or unstable 911 Turbos have been my favorite cars since I was a little kid

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Feb 29, 2008 10:58:14 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: edz

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Quote:
edz said:
Poor 997TT everyone is knocking it It's not a perfect car but which one of them is. The beauty is in the eye of beholder. I am no world champion race car driver but i could drive a car and merely critize it despite how perfect many gr8 drivers in the world think it might be. Hey a cheese burger might taste as good as steak from time to time but it's still ground beef and not a fillet. There is only one 997TT slow or fast, ugly or pretty, stable or unstable 911 Turbos have been my favorite cars since I was a little kid

That's all that matters. Unless you're Nick.

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Mar 1, 2008 1:16:43 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: edz

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Quote:
edz said:
Poor 997TT everyone is knocking it It's not a perfect car but which one of them is. The beauty is in the eye of beholder. I am no world champion race car driver but i could drive a car and merely critize it despite how perfect many gr8 drivers in the world think it might be. Hey a cheese burger might taste as good as steak from time to time but it's still ground beef and not a fillet. There is only one 997TT slow or fast, ugly or pretty, stable or unstable 911 Turbos have been my favorite cars since I was a little kid

Have you considered your in a rut? Seriously, Porsche has had its day and others are surpassing it. To hold on to what was once was is not rational.

Open your eyes and your mind, breathe freshness and exhale the stale. You will be much happier in your new world. Or you can remain stuck in the past and wistfully hope it will catch up with the future. It isn't going to happen.

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Mar 1, 2008 5:02:12 AM

Monster: Junior; Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada; Posts: 107, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 15, 2003; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

Quote:
JoeRockhead said:
Quote:
edz said:
Poor 997TT everyone is knocking it It's not a perfect car but which one of them is. The beauty is in the eye of beholder. I am no world champion race car driver but i could drive a car and merely critize it despite how perfect many gr8 drivers in the world think it might be. Hey a cheese burger might taste as good as steak from time to time but it's still ground beef and not a fillet. There is only one 997TT slow or fast, ugly or pretty, stable or unstable 911 Turbos have been my favorite cars since I was a little kid

That's all that matters. Unless you're Nick.

Like it or not, other car companies seem to have caught-up with Porsche. Remember the 996 days, there was nothing compared to a 996 Carrera and Turbo in their respective markets. Now, suddenly the 997s are not winning comparison tests. But it is a good thing, this means Porsche has to work harder on the 998 (or whatever the next gen is called). Not just LED head/tail light or gadget, but real hardware that will significantly enhancement in both performance and handling.

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Mar 1, 2008 5:10:45 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: Monster

Re: GT-R power output vs 997TT...

M3 is doing pretty well keeping up with cars 2x it's price...

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Mar 1, 2008 7:28:39 AM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: Flagg

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Some of you need to wake up and demand a better product, for your dollar, from Porsche. Otherwise they will just let this become an acceptable trait of their vehicles... second rate performance, top rate profitability.

...and don't give me the "it's good for them to lose crap". You must either be new to buying their vehicles or you love to be fleeced.

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Mar 1, 2008 7:43:15 AM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

How much faster can a car get from 0-60? How much better are we expecting our cars to handle? Regardless I am not a Godzilla man So call the 997TT old news, bad news, underperfomer, over priced, unbalanced but it is still a legendry car

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Mar 1, 2008 11:04:07 AM

Boxster Coupe GTS: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 5884, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 23, 2005; Reply to: edz

GT-R vs GT3 vs M3...

Another interesting comparison for those that haven't seen it...

* Autocar - Part 1: Nissan GT-R vs 911 GT3 vs M3

"Chris Harris pits the GT-R against the BMW M3 and 911 GT3..."

Video link 1: www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=231443&CT=V

* Autocar - Part 2: Nissan GT-R vs 911 GT3 vs M3

"Chris Harris drag races the GT-R and its rivals..."

Video link 2: www.autocar.co.uk/VideosWallpapers/Videos.aspx?AR=231444&CT=V

* Autocar - First drive: Nissan GT-R

First drive link: www.autocar.co.uk/CarReviews/FirstDrives/Nissan-GT-R-3.8-V6/229393/

...impressive dual-clutch transmission and 4wd technology, along with an engine that clearly has more power than initially claimed!

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Mar 1, 2008 3:17:46 PM

JoeRockhead: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Topside , Monaco; Posts: 8033, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 17, 2007; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:
Some of you need to wake up and demand a better product, for your dollar, from Porsche. Otherwise they will just let this become an acceptable trait of their vehicles... second rate performance, top rate profitability.

...and don't give me the "it's good for them to lose crap". You must either be new to buying their vehicles or you love to be fleeced.

I doubt my next car will be a Porsche. I'm going to have a serious look at this M3, or perhaps an R8. I do expect Porsche to respond, especially with the departure of WW. But until that happens, I won't be buying another new one.

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Mar 1, 2008 3:26:48 PM

turbonator: Newbie; Loc: NY, USA; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 19, 2006; Reply to: JoeRockhead

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

What's interesting is that the new M3 has already been declared slower than the C63 AMG in car mags. About a year ago, I remember BMW started running ads in car mags trying to fight back against AMG by saying handling is just as important as acceleration. Funny thing is, AMG has vastly improved their handling in the more recent generations and they are crushing BMW in the power dept.

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Mar 2, 2008 10:57:59 AM

Flagg: Co-Pilot; Loc: Dubai, United Arab Emirates; Posts: 152, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 29, 2007; Reply to: turbonator

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

However, the M3 is still by FAR superior to the C63 in terms of handling. Basically, the only win for the C63 AMG is in a straight line.. just watch the Top Gear track results for the 2 cars, its a huge difference.

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Mar 4, 2008 11:44:08 AM

Barney: Newbie; Loc: Edinburgh Lothian , United Kingdom; Posts: 24, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 5, 2006; Reply to: Flagg

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Interesting article in CAR for a number of reasons. The turbo on track has by the biggest margin of any of the test criteria the fastest top speed on the track that is because it is the fastest car in a straight line . The turbo is set up for a softer setting to set it aside from the GT3 and RS. The trubo is not a particularly good track car.Interesting when Chris Harris does the drag race he uses a GT3 not a turbo as the trubo would win frankly as it will have greater mid range and is lighter. Ihave altered the camber etc on my turbo equivalent to an RS spec , very easily done and it has transformed the handling too much sharper. Cost Pounds125 only. Biggest difference here and it will equate to the full second the GT-R beat the turbo by on the track is the gearbox. Any decent paddle box will steal 10ths of a second on every gearchange over a manual box so on a lap 1 second is nothing. Porsches tiptronic is an auto frankly so uaeless for real track work. As always it comes down to personal choice and what these reports really say is what an immense achievement for 6ok in the UK the GT-r is not that the turbo is a bad car. 2 seconds quicker on a lap at the Nurburgring over 7 minutes 38 secs doesnt make the trubo a bad car just the GT-R very special for the price , even better if you live in Japan.If value for money is your main criteria it is a supercar bargain if you are not so financially contrained then it will be something to consider along with all the other cars tested and many more. The Japanese have always been expperts at the point to point speed battle for little money and I would expect an Evo or a Scooby to be just as quick on real roads in all conditions for half the price of the GT-r so where do you stop ? Personal choice. Sorry for the ramblings.

cheers

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Mar 4, 2008 12:55:51 PM

SimonH: Newbie; Loc: Lancs, UK; Posts: 49, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Barney

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Quote:
Barney said:
Interesting article in CAR for a number of reasons. The turbo on track has by the biggest margin of any of the test criteria the fastest top speed on the track that is because it is the fastest car in a straight line . The turbo is set up for a softer setting to set it aside from the GT3 and RS. The trubo is not a particularly good track car.Interesting when Chris Harris does the drag race he uses a GT3 not a turbo as the trubo would win frankly as it will have greater mid range and is lighter. Ihave altered the camber etc on my turbo equivalent to an RS spec , very easily done and it has transformed the handling too much sharper. Cost Pounds125 only. Biggest difference here and it will equate to the full second the GT-R beat the turbo by on the track is the gearbox. Any decent paddle box will steal 10ths of a second on every gearchange over a manual box so on a lap 1 second is nothing. Porsches tiptronic is an auto frankly so uaeless for real track work. As always it comes down to personal choice and what these reports really say is what an immense achievement for 6ok in the UK the GT-r is not that the turbo is a bad car. 2 seconds quicker on a lap at the Nurburgring over 7 minutes 38 secs doesnt make the trubo a bad car just the GT-R very special for the price , even better if you live in Japan.If value for money is your main criteria it is a supercar bargain if you are not so financially contrained then it will be something to consider along with all the other cars tested and many more. The Japanese have always been expperts at the point to point speed battle for little money and I would expect an Evo or a Scooby to be just as quick on real roads in all conditions for half the price of the GT-r so where do you stop ? Personal choice. Sorry for the ramblings.

cheers

Barney,
I completely agree with you, absolutely.It feels to me that after all these mag reviews and video tests, that the 997TT, has now become the underdog, which suits me fine, because the only way is up.It seems to have been forgotten that the Turbo, has been tested as being quicker in a straight line, and that if inded the GT-R is quicker here or there, it is quicker fitted with every electronic traction device known to man, and that it has to have another 40bhp to be so.Im still waiting to pick up my underdog, arriving around mid April, and i have the intentions of changing the geometery, to tighten things up a little.Did you ask for the RS? specs, or was this recommended to you by those chaps that did it?.I was under the impression that the 997 GT3 spec was the one to ask for?.I notice you are from Scotland, you lucky begger.Im up near Aford over easter, sampling some of the many fine roads up there.Regards, SIMON.

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Mar 7, 2008 2:44:58 AM

chapse: Junior; Loc: NewEngland US; Posts: 98, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 22, 2006; Reply to: SimonH

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Given that the GTR is fast and handles well on the street and track, unless one wants it for track use, wonder what the street user demographic market is for future buyers of the GTR. If one can afford the price of the GTR not sure they would want to spend that kind of money to drive a riceburner that looks like it came from a Godzilla movie. my .02

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Mar 7, 2008 3:29:45 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: chapse

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Sorry: it's a hideous bloated monstrosity. I think a fascinating new low has been reached: a brake caliper looks better than this car!

Has anyone sat in one? My bet is the view out the windshield and sides is so narrow that nothing about your _Touring_ is gonna seem _Grand_.

Check how narrow the side windows are and how high up the windshield is in this photo:

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Mar 7, 2008 5:25:56 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Love how they state the GT-R is more practical and versatile than the 997TT. But they don't mention why, unless I missed something.

Can you say biased? Especially when they don't mention how ugly the GT-R is.

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Mar 7, 2008 10:21:43 AM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Love how they state the GT-R is more practical and versatile than the 997TT. But they don't mention why, unless I missed something.

Four seats for adults and a trunk?

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Mar 7, 2008 10:22:59 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: AUM

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Quote:
AUM said:
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Love how they state the GT-R is more practical and versatile than the 997TT. But they don't mention why, unless I missed something.

Four seats for adults and a trunk?

The trunk is laughably small and those rear seats, aren't much roomier than those of a Porsche. The car is huge, but not roomy at all.

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Mar 7, 2008 1:13:59 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: AUM

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Quote:
AUM said:
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:
Love how they state the GT-R is more practical and versatile than the 997TT. But they don't mention why, unless I missed something.

Four seats for adults and a trunk?

At least it should be mentioned in the article. I don't know how much more comfortable the rear seats are in a GT-R, compared to the 997TT, if it is. And I don't know how much more storage there is in a GT-R, compared to the 997TT.

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Mar 7, 2008 1:36:12 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

Trunk capacity is 310 L. On the GTR website the rearseats are described as "occasional"

- front seats are described as o.k. for anybody up to 190 cm.

Here's a sketch from their website showing some dimensions:

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Mar 9, 2008 8:00:13 PM

Barney: Newbie; Loc: Edinburgh Lothian , United Kingdom; Posts: 24, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 5, 2006; Reply to: chapse

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

go for the RS spec as GT3 is the narrow body car while RS is same body as the TT. I also got a Tubi exhaust on mine and the DMS power ecu upgrade both well worht the cash .

cheers Simon.

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Mar 10, 2008 3:57:59 PM

cannga: Expert; Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States; Posts: 1940, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 6, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

I actually would feel shameful to be seen in this fugly car. While the great track and acceleration numbers are not in doubt, the car's major flaw to me is Nissan has decided to solve the weight problem by throwing in horse power. My complaint about the Porsche Turbo is its weight; the GTR outweighs my car by 350 lbs!

These cars might win "comparison" tests against the Turbo, not that surprising because the Turbo is not a perfect car and was the target during the years of development, and yet when you look at the 911's other (besides sublime steering and brake & supercar class acceleration) keys to success, great visibility, small car feel, timeless and classic form, I still do not see a substitute

. I enjoy comparison tests; they are proof of the Turbo's continued overall dominance.

Quote:
MMD said:
Sorry: it's a hideous bloated monstrosity. I think a fascinating new low has been reached: a brake caliper looks better than this car!

Has anyone sat in one? My bet is the view out the windshield and sides is so narrow that nothing about your _Touring_ is gonna seem _Grand_.

Check how narrow the side windows are and how high up the windshield is in this photo:

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CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

GT-R power output vs 997TT...

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Re: CAR mag review - 911TT vs GTR vs R8 vs M3

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GT-R vs GT3 vs M3...

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