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    Feb 10, 2008 11:43:15 PM

    U Boat Commander
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    Differences Between 997 and 997S

    I need to complie a list of the primary differences betweeen a 997 Cab and a 997S Cab. Here's what I have so far. Anything else you can add to this would be appreciated.


    Carrera S Cabriolet

    Base Price: US$94,100

    Engine: 3.8l 355hp flat 6

    Suspension Front: MacPherson strut, 0.94 x 0.15 diameter stabilizer bar with Porsche Active Stability Management System ("PASM"), dual setting advanced magnetic adapting electronic damping system

    Suspension Rear: Independent, five arms configuration with PASM

    Brakes: 330x34MM diameter front, 330 x34MM diameter rear; Four-piston aluminum monobloc calipers

    Wheels: 19" alloy wheels

    Headlamps: Bi-Xenon headlights which radiate twice the light while requiring 30 percent less power


    Carrera Cabriolet

    Base Price: US$83,800

    Engine: 3.6l 325hp flat 6

    Suspension Front: MacPherson strut, 0.93 x 0.14 diameter

    Suspensoin Rear: Independent, five arms configuration

    Brakes: 318x28MM diameter front, 299x24MM diameter rear; Four-piston aluminum monobloc calipers

    Wheels: 18" alloy wheels

    Headlamps: Standard halogen headlamps

    Feb 11, 2008 12:02:10 AM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Engine
    Suspension
    Wheels
    Brakes
    Headlights

    Clutch (self-adjusting in S)

    Alu-Look stuff inside (it's all Vulcan Grey in the 3.6L)
    Rear logo (Charcoal vs Silver)
    Brake calipers (black vs red)

    Feb 11, 2008 1:14:55 AM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Aren't the instrument guages black on the non-S and aluminum in the S? Also, The S has the different exhaust pipe tips (dual) vs single.

    Feb 11, 2008 2:05:38 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Aren't the instrument guages black on the non-S and aluminum in the S? Also, The S has the different exhaust pipe tips (dual) vs single.



    Yessir.

    FWIW, here's the rear view

    Feb 11, 2008 6:17:51 AM

    997S4KEN
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    From the beginning the S should have been the entry level P car. These days the ante has been risen, and just enough aint enough. IMO

    Feb 11, 2008 7:29:24 AM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: 997S4KEN

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    997S4KEN said:
    From the beginning the S should have been the entry level P car. These days the ante has been risen, and just enough aint enough. IMO



    People are still buying the base model, which has a very high profit margin when compared to the higher echelon models.

    Feb 11, 2008 8:33:12 AM

    Lars997M
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    Reply to: Moogle

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Porsche used this differentiation to increase the price for the 911. As997S4Ken is saying - it should have been the base but then the price increase would have been much to high. So the Carrera layer in between makes it more relaxed.

    If you count the additional parts together the ratio will tell you that you better buy an S. The Standard is only slightly cheaper and to be honest - all of S inclsuive options are must haves.

    Feb 11, 2008 8:54:38 AM

    U Boat Commander
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    How about the clutch and exhaust. I know the 997S has a more expensive clutch than the 997. Anybody know what the technical difference is?

    Feb 11, 2008 2:32:13 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    U Boat Commander said:
    How about the clutch and exhaust. I know the 997S has a more expensive clutch than the 997. Anybody know what the technical difference is?




    S clutch is self-adjusting. Very important advancement/difference. Service life is significantly longer than non-S. Foot pressure required for actuation remains constant throughout service life of clutch assembly.

    Feb 11, 2008 2:42:44 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    Lars997 said:
    Porsche used this differentiation to increase the price for the 911. As997S4Ken is saying - it should have been the base but then the price increase would have been much to high. So the Carrera layer in between makes it more relaxed.

    If you count the additional parts together the ratio will tell you that you better buy an S. The Standard is only slightly cheaper and to be honest - all of S inclsuive options are must haves.



    Exactly what he said...

    Feb 11, 2008 5:15:25 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    Lars997 said:
    Porsche used this differentiation to increase the price for the 911. As997S4Ken is saying - it should have been the base but then the price increase would have been much to high. So the Carrera layer in between makes it more relaxed.

    If you count the additional parts together the ratio will tell you that you better buy an S. The Standard is only slightly cheaper and to be honest - all of S inclsuive options are must haves.



    Totally agree...

    Feb 11, 2008 6:08:04 PM

    JoeRockhead
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    Lars997 said:
    Porsche used this differentiation to increase the price for the 911. As997S4Ken is saying - it should have been the base but then the price increase would have been much to high. So the Carrera layer in between makes it more relaxed.

    If you count the additional parts together the ratio will tell you that you better buy an S. The Standard is only slightly cheaper and to be honest - all of S inclsuive options are must haves.



    Totally agree...



    +1

    I know I would have regretted not getting the S. I wanted the Xenon's and more power anyway.

    Feb 11, 2008 6:40:10 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: 997S4KEN

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    997S4KEN said:
    From the beginning the S should have been the entry level P car. These days the ante has been risen, and just enough aint enough. IMO



    Exactly!

    Note: someone wrote in a reply above that the S has magnetically-controlled dampers. Perhaps PASM has a solenoid (therefore magnetic actuator), but that only opens and closes valves. These are not the same advanced MR dampers used in the Corvette (F55 option), or the F599GTB, or the R8. Yes, PAG should switch to these.

    Feb 11, 2008 8:24:49 PM

    Jim48
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    Reply to: Lars997M

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    Lars997 said:
    Porsche used this differentiation to increase the price for the 911. As997S4Ken is saying - it should have been the base but then the price increase would have been much to high. So the Carrera layer in between makes it more relaxed.

    If you count the additional parts together the ratio will tell you that you better buy an S. The Standard is only slightly cheaper and to be honest - all of S inclsuive options are must haves.



    I'm old enough to remember the Porsche 912, the "poor man's version" of the 911. The 912 had the 4-cylinder air-cooled engine (modified VW engine, I think, but I am sure it was a 4-cylinder engine) whereas the 911 had the new flat-6. The base 911 for the 997 version, to me, is similar, but some think it is the best value for the money.

    Still glad I bought the "S." I believe it was well worth it.

    Jim

    Feb 12, 2008 12:40:24 AM

    CS
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    Reply to: Jim48

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    except of the outlook of the exhaust, any different in terms of technical?

    Feb 12, 2008 3:58:56 PM

    WR
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    Reply to: CS

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    totally agree, there are numbers of parts in a S where they are just worth the extra price...

    Feb 12, 2008 4:06:50 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: WR

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    This is just a subjective view of the differences. Some guys say the 25-30 hp difference between S and non-S are negligible.

    It occurred to me one day driving my 997S that the extra HP is NOT negligible as I was passing a lobotomy-candidate driver who naturally sped up to make my passing more difficult. I was glad to have the "reserve" power.

    Feb 12, 2008 4:24:30 PM

    Jim48
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    This is just a subjective view of the differences. Some guys say the 25-30 hp difference between S and non-S are negligible.

    It occurred to me one day driving my 997S that the extra HP is NOT negligible as I was passing a lobotomy-candidate driver who naturally sped up to make my passing more difficult. I was glad to have the "reserve" power.





    Agree, 30 hp does make a difference, especially when passing those who act the way you described, which is all too often. Call it "Porsche envy."

    Jim

    Feb 14, 2008 5:59:16 AM

    Dan L
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    Reply to: Jim48

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    The magnetically sensitive Corvette dampers are being found to not be as effective a design as the unique alve routing of the Porsche shocks. They may be dropped soon at GM.

    Dan

    Feb 14, 2008 5:30:14 PM

    PS CA Offline
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    Reply to: U Boat Commander

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Here is a comparison I prepared in 2005. Some of the dollar amounts may have changed:

    "There is a $9800 difference between an S and non-S. For that $9800 you get 30HP, larger brakes, Bi-Xenon headlights ($1090), PASM ($1990), 19" wheels ($1550), higher performing cooling pump and an oil/water exchanger with two cooling layers (value ?), self-adjusting clutch (value ?), aluminum finished instrument panel dials ($860), sports steering wheel (value ?), aluminum look interior trim (value ?). To purchase the "tuned engine" option for the 996 (which increased HP from 320 to 345) cost $13990. I don't know what the larger brakes cost, but I assume they would be $500+ if you could purchase them. So, in theory, you get around $19980 worth of extras for $10000. That is a relative bargain. I have seen many people spec their 997 with 19" wheels, PASM and Bi-Xenon headlights ($4630 total) so they could have got an extra 30 HP and turbo brakes for only $5170 more. As I said, I feel the S option is a good deal but only you know whether it is worth it for yourself."

    I assume the above info is still correct.

    Phil

    Feb 15, 2008 3:42:43 AM

    cello
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    Reply to: PS CA

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Ok this will be controversial.

    First, all opinions are biased by selection. I do not expect anyone who purchased an S to subjectively feel bad about that. That said, for discourse, one should be objective and not defensive.

    The true S is the 3.8 X51, not the 3.8. The 3.8's performance improvements over the 3.6 are negligible both as tested and in a real world sense. For example; passing power as cited above. The 3.6 simply requires one to go a bit deeper on the pedal and higher in the rev band to accomplish the same task. Everyone knows the testing numbers and the tester's quotes and where each engine is best/is lacking.

    On the street, there is no appreciable difference except one: greater low end torque. And THAT is the reason for the 3.8. It is an engine that is built for American roads and use: Stop light to stop light with pulls against American cars built for that for the purpose of straight line acceleration. It addressed the 911's relative lack of low end pull and the embarrassment by $100K+ owners getting pulled on by cars half the price (if one cares about such things - I do not).

    Porsche's pricing of the 3.8 proves the point. Most support for the 3.8 is based upon the fact that several extra 'goodies' are thrown in price wise. Porsche never "gives" away anything of value (as is evident from its options list). Yet here it "throws" in extra value in the S package. Why? Because, in the real world, without the goodies, Porsche would be hard pressed to sell the 3.8 over the 3.6 based solely on either performance or feel.

    I respectfully submit the 3.8 is a creation for the US market by Porsche's marketing department not its engineering department (although to Porsche's credit, its engineers were permitted to create the 3.8 X51 which is truly a different car in that it is both stronger than the 3.6 and as high revving). How else does one explain, for example, the 'lacking' design of the 3.8 cats (as opposed to the design in the 3.6) which almost appear to be an afterthought and certainly not in keeping with Porsche's engineering philosophy of extracting and wringing out every once of performance. Why not just do it right and charge more?

    Now, I would be perfectly happy with a 3.8 and did not post this to make anyone fell bad about their purchase. I know there will be those of you that will automatically think this post is 'sour grapes' or some such. Whether you want to believe me or not: I bought what I bought (997T4) after careful research and consideration and for my own reasons; and, like each of you, do not need outside validation thereof. However, this post seems to indicate that the 3.8 is objectively better. I posted this simply to point out the contrary view. I do not buy that the "base" 3.8, without the X51, is in any way objectively better than the 3.6. A larger purchase price does not by itself begat or bestow primacy (as some think). These versions are so close as to be a toss up based primarily on intended usage. Which car is objectively better is certainly not as clear cut as this thread makes it out to be.

    Sorry. My .02 cents.

    Feb 15, 2008 12:16:27 PM

    Ronnie
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    Reply to: cello

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Yep, the S is definitely the better buy.

    Forget the other stuff, 30hp more and much better brakes is reason enough.

    As for the S being just for the US market... why aren't they all automatic as well then?

    Feb 15, 2008 12:57:38 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Ronnie

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Apart from the fact that you get more goodies and it's at least a fair deal (good value) IMO: the S has a bit of psychology of the marketplace behind it.

    Basic tenent: if you have the money to _blow_ you buy the S. Therefore it becomes a status thing in _some_ people's eyes. What does Porsche do to make sure your higher status is publically appreciated? They decided to put a nice big "S" on rear deck, red calipers, stupid false quad exhaust tips: all trying to get the "S" message across (i.e. "mine is not the 'cheaper' car") which means you're more than flush in some divorced chick's eyes.

    I believe Porsche looooooves this sort of thing. For the same reason they have colored those FUGLY brake calipers. Red is "better" than black; yellow is "better" than red; silver (CGT) is "better" than all. Funny too that red brakes on a boxster are different from red brakes on a Carrera are different from red brakes on a Turbo; but I heard a guy say the Boxster S has the same [red] brakes as the Turbo!!

    Oh... and the SC stopwatch must really indicate something "special" (i.e. expensive and desireable) to be so prominent on the dash.

    So freekin' stupid to think this way; I'm glad I'm nowhere near people (that part of our culture) who DO think like that.

    How do I know this? I kept my 986S. I decided to remove the broken rear deck "S" badge. About a week later some bicycle guys rolled by where I was parked (scenic overlook). One of them said, "Oh, that's the slow one," obviously referring to my "base" Boxster. Like WTF goes on in different people's heads when they see a nice shiny Porsche? My bet is Porsche knows exactly what goes on.

    Feb 15, 2008 1:04:23 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: Ronnie

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    The S is a stealth $10k increase. If only the S was available (at current prices), customers would have been up in arms that Porsche had jacked up the price.

    But thanks to such smart tiered pricing, most customers are happy to pay $10k over the 996...

    It's the oldest trick in the book. 2 SKUs, and most people will buy the cheaper version. 3 SKUs, and most people buy the middle version.

    Feb 15, 2008 1:44:29 PM

    cello
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    MMD & The Groom: I think we generally agree. I personally think the S is a great car, just not necessary in the Porsche line up on an objective engineering basis. I see the real line up for the 997 as follows: 997 (base & S verison); 997S (3.8X51); GT3, Turbo, GT2. The cynic in me sees the car as a pure marketing ploy for its Dealers: 'Sell them on the Carrera, then casually walk them over to the S and subtly point out "others" will have "faster" versions or "more expensive" versions and, well, its just x dollars more and look what you get'. How many fall for this is unreal (Posters carrying this mind set usually quickly make it fairly evident in their posts). If one is insecure, this is all the 'prod' one needs to buy it all and optioned to the max as well. The Dealers must love it. Porsche was founded on the philosophy of smaller lower powered cars that won as a result of fine engineering and careful attention to weight savings and a finely tuned suspension. As one poster has quoted (paraphrased): Porsche is an athlete not a weight lifter. The 3.6 is the athlete. As far as "value" that is subjective and individual to the person deciding but there is no doubt you get "more" with the S. Whether what you "get" is all necessary or needed is a separate question (esp for those who get no where near a track). Anyway it is just an opinion.

    Feb 15, 2008 1:48:30 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: cello

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    cello said:
    Which car is objectively better is certainly not as clear cut as this thread makes it out to be.



    The initial debate was about the differences between these two models. Your comments do not interfere with the above given statements. They just stress the point.

    Porsche has never been a company giving away for free anything on their cars, the base 997's price is just as justified as the S model's one. It boils down to the priorities of your purchase; if one is aiming at the driving perception, the overall experience and, not to forget, the price than a base 997 might be the better choice than the S model and... even than the much cheaper Cayman S. If you don't want compromises or the perception that there is a better product for just "a little" more on the market, get the S. As an entry to Porsche's 911 or as a car with a very short hold time, the base model might be the more senseful deal. Buying such a car for a longer period of time, there would be, in my eyes, no doubt in purchasing the more expensive S model.

    Better is the enemy of good, and Porsche knows this all too well.

    Feb 15, 2008 4:21:23 PM

    cello
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    "If you don't want compromises or the perception that there is a better product for just "a little" more on the market, get the S."

    This is exact what I challenge: Explain, please, what "compromises" you are referring to in the 3.6 and how exactly the 3.8 is a "better product" (without the because I bought it thinking)? Then we can have a discussion.

    Feb 15, 2008 4:35:33 PM

    PS CA Offline
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    Reply to: cello

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Quote:
    cello said:
    I see the real line up for the 997 as follows: 997 (base & S verison); 997S (3.8X51); GT3, Turbo, GT2. The cynic in me sees the car as a pure marketing ploy for its Dealers: 'Sell them on the Carrera, then casually walk them over to the S and subtly point out "others" will have "faster" versions or "more expensive" versions and, well, its just x dollars more and look what you get'.
    Quote:

    I don't understand your logic. You question paying $10,000 for the S that gives you 30 HP, better brakes, larger wheels, better headlights, etc. and a decrease in 0-60 MPH of .2 seconds. Yet you seem to embrace paying $16,900 for the X-51 package that gives you 26 HP (and nothing else for your money) and a decrease in 0-60 MPH of .2 seconds over the S. That is really not much bang for your buck. Why is the .2/second decrease more significant with the X-51 over the S than the .2/second decrease of the S over the non S?

    I think the X-51 package is a much bigger screwing by Porsche than the S package.

    Phil

    Feb 15, 2008 5:06:17 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: PS CA

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    19" Carrera S wheels + PASM + Xenon headlights = 40% of the difference between the 3.6 and the 3.8.

    Assuming the 3.6 and the 3.8 depreciate at the same rate (-40% in 4 years), it's pretty much a wash.

    In other words, you're getting 30hp for free, provided you do want 19" wheels, PASM and Xenon headlights. Of course, if you don't, then the 3.6 is cheaper.


    So, the 3.8 is probably better value than the 3.6. The same cannot be said about X51 (or PCCB for that matter): good luck getting your money back at resale.

    Those options are definitely valuable - but they're certainly not free.

    Feb 15, 2008 5:10:39 PM

    cello
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    Reply to: PS CA

    Re: Differences Between 997 and 997S

    Phil: Part of my point here is it is not just about numbers. Disclaimer: I do not have any extended seat time with the X51 engine. I know people who do and they have indicated that the engine is much freer revving, breathing, and responsive all thru the band compared to the 997 & 997S getting the best of the 3.6's lack of inertia while revving and the 3.8's greater/broader torque curve. You can find support for that opinion on the racing boards.
     
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