Crown

Carlos from Spain:

lukestern:

Very informative Carlos. Thanks for sharing!
I wonder if this is a general Pirelli P Zero issue in the wet, or just the N-rated version for the 991 

The Porsches I've driven lately with P Zero (Panamera and Cayenne) have performed excellent in the wet. But these P Zeros might have completely different characteristics?

Hi Luke, my guess is that it has to be only the N-rated Pirelli Pzero for the 991 specifically.

The PZeros for other cars like the R8 for example has a completely different thread pattern than the N1 for the 991 and probably different compound mixture too (actually the N1 in the 991 has the same thread pattern than the previous N0, it didn't change like for other cars).

Probably for cars that differ even more from the 991 like the Panamera or Cayenne the Pzeros may be even more different which would explain your findings, and I know many people happy with the Pzeros in other cars too.

Thanks for clarifying Carlos. It makes sense then because I have had really good experience with P Zero on different cars and just found it odd that they seems to be so bad in the wet on the 991.

Great to hear that you're happy now with the new Michelins 

 Made me very happy!

When I changed from the N0 to the N1 and found that the problem continued I was starting to think it was the GTS and not the tires which had me really worried, I drive rain or shine and don't want to be walking on egg shells just because it is wet, there would be no point in driving the GTS then, I love everything about the GTS but that would be a mayor issue. But now all is back to normal again and can enjoy the car regardless of the weather now.

I still a little more time to gain more confidence with them and their limits, I had a couple of scary moments with the PZeros I don't want to repeat, but already its night and day! I'm a happy camper! 

Just wanted to share it with others in case they have to change tires in the 991 and that there is now another option to consider with the PS4S that there wasn't before 

--

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos, your comparison described as " Night & Day" is perfect!

I just don't know why Porsche haven't N-rated the PS4S for the 997 range - it just doesn't make any sense...

"Things turn out best for those who make the best of the way things turn out."

John H:

Carlos, your comparison described as " Night & Day" is perfect!

I just don't know why Porsche haven't N-rated the PS4S for the 997 range - it just doesn't make any sense...

 

Glad to hear you are happy with the choice to go with the PS4S, since Porsche only seems to give N ratings for tires only for models that are in production, after that you are stuck with what ever models came out then. We had the same problem with the PSS and the 997, the PSS was a newer tire than the N rated PS2 and that Michelin actually developed usimg 997.2's as their test cars yet Porsche didnt bother to N rate it for the 997, when it worked great in the 997 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

lukestern:

Very informative Carlos. Thanks for sharing!
I wonder if this is a general Pirelli P Zero issue in the wet, or just the N-rated version for the 991 

The Porsches I've driven lately with P Zero (Panamera and Cayenne) have performed excellent in the wet. But these P Zeros might have completely different characteristics?

Hi Luke, my guess is that it has to be only the N-rated Pirelli Pzero for the 991 specifically.

The PZeros for other cars like the R8 for example has a completely different thread pattern than the N1 for the 991 and probably different compound mixture too (actually the N1 in the 991 has the same thread pattern than the previous N0, it didn't change like for other cars).

Probably for cars that differ even more from the 991 like the Panamera or Cayenne the Pzeros may be even more different which would explain your findings, and I know many people happy with the Pzeros in other cars too.

Yep, the PZero PZ4 with Audi rating is a monster on wet roads, I just love it. Not that good on my 991.2 GTS Cab (I have winter tires right now but had the N1 summer tires for a month or so to try out), wet performance is OK but not even close to the R8 (you should see the crazy stuff I can do in the wet, amazing). On wet roads, when we drive in a group, I usually drive away and all my buddies think that I'm nuts but this is really related to the tires. They are temperature sensitive though, at and/or under 5-10°C or so and the PZero isn't that fun in the wet anymore. 

I have the suspicion that Porsche put the emphasis on dry performance, braking and aquaplaning. Also probably a mild understeer to prevent sudden massive oversteer. Just a wild guess though.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Carlos from Spain:

Well, an update on the tires: I had the PS4S fitted yesterday on the GTS and got to throw away the Pirelli PZeros, just in the quick drive back from the dealer it happened to be raining and 11ºC and the difference was immediate... what a huge difference in the wet, and they weren't even run in yet.

Today I did 200 miles in rain and got to try them some more, my 911 is no longer handicapped in the rain finally! after the ordeal with the N0 and N1 Pirelli P-Zeros.

I seriously don't understand how those tires got the N rating from Porsche, its not like its a little difference from similar model to model, in the dry they were fine but in the wet they were the worst tire I ever had on a 911, and I have put over 400,000km on 911 and countless sets of tires through 996-997-991, I'm not a sunny Sunday boulevard driver.

Best description how the P-Zeros feel on the wet in the GTS is like old out of date tires that have hardened and may look fine and feel fine but have no grip. If it were one set I could think that maybe there was something wrong with that batch, but after the N0 I put on the newer N1 and same thing, a bit better but still very poor. The only explanation I can think of is that they were tight on time when launching the 991 and needed a tire for it and just signed off what they had, and until now only the Pirellis were available in N rating as a matter of fact. But now Michelin have come up with a proper tire with the PS4 Sport, highly recommend it. 

Sounds great, will have the PS4S on the C63 next week, looking forward to it!

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

I actually remembered you Frank when I got back from the dealer, I checked the tire pressures and while they weren't at 4.0bar they were still at +0.5/8 bar above normal, they always overinflate them for some reason. Looking forward to your impressions of the PS4S!

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Just as a side note (sorry for the R8 content again... ): The PS4S seems to be used by many R8 drivers as well but when I wanted to get the PS4S to replace my PZero (wanted to try something else without going for the Cup 2), my dealer said no, it is not approved for the R8. I looked up the size on the Michelin website and the size was available for the R8. So I contacted Michelin directly and they told me that the tire is OK for my R8 but they wouldn't recommend it yet and I should wait for the version with Audi rating (apparently they are working on that). When I asked why, they told me that the front tires of the R8 need a firmer side wall structure than the current PS4S has. No further explanations. 

So I guess it is a good idea to take in account what the manufacturer has to say as well about a specific car, even if the tire is available in that particular size.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Carlos from Spain:

I actually remembered you Frank when I got back from the dealer, I checked the tire pressures and while they weren't at 4.0bar they were still at +0.5/8 bar above normal, they always overinflate them for some reason. Looking forward to your impressions of the PS4S!

I can understand it when a car stands in a showroom, to avoid flatspotting the tires, but it should always be put back to normal before letting your customers go out... 

How much are you putting the PS4S?

1992 Mercedes-Benz W124 500E  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

The consensus seems to be that the N0 and even N1 rated PZ4 is pretty poor in the wet. Yet, RC finds the Audi version of the PZ4 to perform very well in the wet. This makes me wonder how the regular, non-N rated PZ4 would perform in the wet on a Porsche. Anyone have any experience with such a setup?

KMM:

The consensus seems to be that the N0 and even N1 rated PZ4 is pretty poor in the wet. Yet, RC finds the Audi version of the PZ4 to perform very well in the wet. This makes me wonder how the regular, non-N rated PZ4 would perform in the wet on a Porsche. Anyone have any experience with such a setup?

I think you are wrong, Porsche is not using the PZ4 (to my knowledge). The tread pattern looks different (this is quite sure, we already compared Markus' PZero profile from his PZero N1 in his 991.2 Turbo S with mine...R8).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I must have missed that. I was going by the Tirerack's listing (screen capture below): P Zero PZ4 N1.

We discussed this in a different thread and compared photos, not sure which thread it was. Maybe I can find similar photos if I find a little bit of time this afternoon.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Here we go (PZero N0 first, PZero R01 second).

This is the N1...looks like the N0.

Tire tread pattern only...not sure if these tires are actually the ones with the proper rating.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Porker:

Carlos from Spain:

I actually remembered you Frank when I got back from the dealer, I checked the tire pressures and while they weren't at 4.0bar they were still at +0.5/8 bar above normal, they always overinflate them for some reason. Looking forward to your impressions of the PS4S!

I can understand it when a car stands in a showroom, to avoid flatspotting the tires, but it should always be put back to normal before letting your customers go out... 

How much are you putting the PS4S?

I'm running the recommended factory pressures using the TMPS, standard mode values, not confort mode, can't remember what the figures were exactly. Tomorrow I have a P-car outing with a 200km spirited mountain drive, will see how they perform 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

RC:

Here we go (PZero N0 first, PZero R01 second).

 

This is the N1...looks like the N0.

 

Profile only...not sure if these tires are actually the ones with the proper rating.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

The top and bottom one is what the N0 and N1 looked on my GTS, its the same design both N0 and N1.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Interesting article regarding the PZ4:  https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=214

Pirelli seems to love to confuse customers. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

Here we go (PZero N0 first, PZero R01 second).

 

This is the N1...looks like the N0.

 

Tire tread only...not sure if these tires are actually the ones with the proper rating.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

The top and bottom one is what the N0 and N1 looked on my GTS, its the same design both N0 and N1.

Exactly and the middle one is the one I have on my R8. 

So weird to use different tread patterns for the "same" tire (PZero).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

 

So weird to use different tread patterns for the "same" tire (PZero).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

As I understand it, the R01 in the R8 is like the improved facelift version of the crappy N0 hence the different thread pattern, but seems that for Porsche the N1 still kept pretty much to the N0 and did not get the facelift, hence still crap.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

 

So weird to use different tread patterns for the "same" tire (PZero).

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

As I understand it, the R01 in the R8 is like the improved facelift version of the crappy N0 hence the different thread pattern, but seems that for Porsche the N1 still kept pretty much to the N0 and did not get the facelift, hence still crap.

To be honest, I don't have a clue. Porsche is not only using a different tread pattern but also a different compound mixture and sidewall stiffness/etc., so these could be two completely different tires with the same brand name (which in my opinion is idiotic but apparently this is how Pirelli is playing the PZero brand).

On the other hand, Audi messed up the other way around: The optional Michelin Cup 2 R01 has been modified in a way that it is great on wet pavement (seriously, no comparison to the Porsche Cup 2) but on dry pavement, it starts losing grip after a few fast rounds. Where is the logic behind this? 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Thank you all for keeping this thread alive! Following the conversation here I checked the Michelin hp again to realize that the Michelin Sports 4S are now also available with Porsche Rating for my Cayman (with standard 20" wheels) - at least I have an alternative now to the Pirellis - which I do like - for this year's sporty season.

Good to hear they are also now available for 20" Cayman sizes 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Hi Guys - update on the new tyres...

I finally had the Michelin PS4S's fitted to my 997 GTS last week.  The only problem at ATS Euromaster was that they had to acquire a new tool to set the correct torque for the centrelocks.

Verdict after 200 miles - absolutely fantastic - best tyres I've ever experienced on a 911...!!

The ride is much smoother and quieter than the N-Rated PS2's - I can definitely recommend them - no doubt about it...  

"Things turn out best for those who make the best of the way things turn out."

We were invited by Michelin to test them last year. the level of grip is very good.

I was impressed by these tyres.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

John H:

Hi Guys - update on the new tyres...

I finally had the Michelin PS4S's fitted to my 997 GTS last week.  The only problem at ATS Euromaster was that they had to acquire a new tool to set the correct torque for the centrelocks.

Verdict after 200 miles - absolutely fantastic - best tyres I've ever experienced on a 911...!!

Very good to hear John  In my case I went from the worst tire I had ever experienced on a 911 (Pirelli PZero N0/1 for 991) to one of the best, the PS4S, so it was immediately noticeable from the first mile on. Such a relief now.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

I am thinking about the 4S for my Evo.  I am only worried about exposing them to cold weather.  Car sits outside and may occasionally be below freezing.  I use Hakkapelita for Winter, but Denver weather can surprise you in Spring and Fall...

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Grant:

I am thinking about the 4S for my Evo.  I am only worried about exposing them to cold weather.  Car sits outside and may occasionally be below freezing.  I use Hakkapelita for Winter, but Denver weather can surprise you in Spring and Fall...

Grant, for that exact reason I run high perf. all seasons, not summers, on our winter beater car (STi). I have had very good results with the Pirelli P zero nero all season; very stiff sidewalls and excellent grip, also good in the wet and better on gravel than most summers.  If I were  auto-crossing with them I might not be as happy, but for summer DD use they are great, and if the mornings are sub-zero, they behave fine with the AS compound. 

2017 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

Michelin say not to store Cup 2s below 0 C or use them below -10 C. They don’t seem to mention any similar restrictions on the 4S but it seems logical to assume they’re less sensitive than the Cups.

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

DaveGordon:

Michelin say not to store Cup 2s below 0 C or use them below -10 C. They don’t seem to mention any similar restrictions on the 4S but it seems logical to assume they’re less sensitive than the Cups.

Here's their warning about even near-freezing temp exposure:

"The Pilot Sport 4S excels in warm dry and wet conditions, so like all Max Performance Summer tires, is not intended to be serviced, stored nor driven in near- and below-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice...

Note: Tires exposed to temperatures of 20 degrees F (-7 degrees C) or lower must be permitted to gradually return to temperatures of at least 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) for at least 24 hours before they are flexed in any manner, such as by adjusting inflation pressures, mounting them on wheels or using them to support, roll or drive a vehicle.

Flexing of the specialized rubber compounds used in Max Performance Summer tires during cold-weather use can result in irreversible compound cracking. Compound cracking is not a warrantable condition because it occurs as the result of improper use or storage, tires exhibiting compound cracking must be replaced."

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4S

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

Interestig. I was going by the Michelin website itself. It has those warnings in the legal mentions for the Cup2 but nothing for the 4S.

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1