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    Dec 31, 2007 9:18:15 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Ron (Houston)
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    facelift 997TT

    I was talking to one of the dealers in town and one of the sales guys that so far has been reliable with his news told me something strange.

    He told me that the upcoming facelift 997TT will incorporate the standars 997 engine with turbo chargers. The existing turbo cars, of course, have the modified old GT1 engine wich will not be cost effective for Porsche anymore. Indeed with the base 997 added turbo chargers Porsche will make approx. USD 10k to 13k more on each car Vs. the GT1 derived engines.

    Now we need to wait and see if he is right or not. Based on my past experience he is been right 9 out of 10 times.

    Dec 31, 2007 9:45:44 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    I was talking to one of the dealers in town and one of the sales guys that so far has been reliable with his news told me something strange.

    He told me that the upcoming facelift 997TT will incorporate the standars 997 engine with turbo chargers. The existing turbo cars, of course, have the modified old GT1 engine wich will not be cost effective for Porsche anymore. Indeed with the base 997 added turbo chargers Porsche will make approx. USD 10k to 13k more on each car Vs. the GT1 derived engines.

    Now we need to wait and see if he is right or not. Based on my past experience he is been right 9 out of 10 times.


    I expected this might happen with the 998, but it would be VERY interesting (and strange) for it to happen so soon

    This move might pursuade some Porsche Turbo customers to buy a Nissan GT-R instead I really hope Porsche never skimps on the dry sump motors for the GT and Turbo cars

    Dec 31, 2007 9:55:32 PM

    Eaglejackson
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    IIRC, there was a thread about a month ago where RC said he heard some info about the FL 997TT and said that one aspect would be quite negative. That led to much speculation, including what you mention, Ron -- that it would have a turbo charged normal 997 engine rather than the current dry sump one.

    Dec 31, 2007 10:12:41 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: Eaglejackson

    Re: facelift 997TT

    As I said this could be the sales guy speculations or may have read the thread and speculated something . We have to wait and see.

    I'm sure if they offer a NA engine with turbo chargers they have to offer whole bunch of horsepower not to loose customers to other brands.

    Dec 31, 2007 10:16:03 PM

    Newman
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Ron - if this is true, I'm glad I bought my car when I did. It was one of the selling points for buying the car in the first place. I'm sure that I am not the only one who feels that way - Porsche makes enough money to humor those of us that appreciate the technical aspects of their cars.

    Jan 1, 2008 12:12:30 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    I expected this might happen with the 998, but it would be VERY interesting (and strange) for it to happen so soon




    This is likely connected with the launch of DI engines...

    Jan 1, 2008 2:56:55 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: facelift 997TT

    May I ask a possibly dumb question?

    Would the GT1-based engine have more durability built into it compared to the 997 units? Other than the advantage of the dry sump, why would it be preferred over the 3.6 997 motor?

    Jan 1, 2008 2:48:34 PM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Maybe they'll be able to punch displacement up with the new motor. Time marches on. At least the new engine isn't that new and has been improved upon, that's how Porsche does things.

    Jan 1, 2008 3:29:07 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    May I ask a possibly dumb question?

    Would the GT1-based engine have more durability built into it compared to the 997 units? Other than the advantage of the dry sump, why would it be preferred over the 3.6 997 motor?


    The GT1 is a much stronger case and can better withstand the stresses of a high hp/tq motor like the 997TT.

    Jan 1, 2008 4:01:13 PM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    The GT1 motor is professional grade, the wet sump 997 motor is consumer grade

    Jan 1, 2008 4:48:02 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: Texas911

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Maybe they'll be able to punch displacement up with the new motor. Time marches on. At least the new engine isn't that new and has been improved upon, that's how Porsche does things.



    Displacement will be 3.8TT and HP will exceed 500hp, this is just my guess .

    Jan 1, 2008 5:08:18 PM

    LAT
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: facelift 997TT

    A friend of mine in Germany at RUF shop said that although they can make almost 500 HP with the M97 using compressors etc. when compared to the "Dry sump" engine the M97 is "S_ _T". This is a direct quote.

    Ruf test and blow up motors in the process so they should know.

    I guess I will be keeping mine for a long while.

    Happy New Year everyone.

    Jan 1, 2008 5:24:10 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Reply to: LAT

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    LAT said:
    A friend of mine in Germany at RUF shop said that although they can make almost 500 HP with the M97 using compressors etc. when compared to the "Dry sump" engine the M97 is "S_ _T". This is a direct quote.



    True but it all comes to earning more money, they really don't care if we're happy about it or not. By changing the engine they'll save 10k-13k per car and like their marketing gimmick on VGT they'll come up with something else to sell the new turbo too.
    Believe it or not they'll make the facelift turbo seem light years ahead of the current ones.

    Jan 1, 2008 5:42:42 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Grant said:

    The GT1 is a much stronger case and can better withstand the stresses of a high hp/tq motor like the 997TT.



    That's what I thought. WOW.

    Seems like Porsche studied their situation and realized most Turbo buyers do not stress the engines enough to justify the GT1 version. It helps that track use voids warranty.

    Depressing.

    Jan 1, 2008 6:23:52 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: facelift 997TT

    I don't think that's it at all. It's dollars and cents, the m97 is far cheaper to produce, can withstand substantial wear/tear long term, can be fitted to handle a little extra boost. The fact is most buyers don't even know what they're missing when they buy a m97 based 911 and could care less. Glad I got mine!

    Jan 1, 2008 7:44:41 PM

    TT Gasman
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    Reply to: Ron (Houston)M

    Re: facelift 997TT



    True but it all comes to earning more money, they really don't care if we're happy about it or not. By changing the engine they'll save 10k-13k per car and like their marketing gimmick on VGT they'll come up with something else to sell the new turbo too.
    Believe it or not they'll make the facelift turbo seem light years ahead of the current ones.



    I wonder if they will drop the price $10K??....NOT. The most profitable car company strikes again. I'm not surprised at all, this follows exactly what they have already done with the standard 911. The vast majority of owners do not use the car to the maximum capability so why not use a cheaper motor....and charge the same.

    Jan 1, 2008 8:20:23 PM

    Eaglejackson
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    Reply to: TT Gasman

    Re: facelift 997TT

    How susceptible is the M97 engine to the infamous Rear Main Seal (RMS) leakage problem?

    Jan 1, 2008 8:47:52 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    I don't think that's it at all. It's dollars and cents, the m97 is far cheaper to produce, can withstand substantial wear/tear long term, can be fitted to handle a little extra boost. The fact is most buyers don't even know what they're missing when they buy a m97 based 911 and could care less. Glad I got mine!



    Maybe you are right, would be nice if it turns out that way.

    OTOH:

    In the late 80s the word around the boatyard went like this. The Japanese mfgr Yanmar was producing a successful line of marine engines for small power boats. They were commercial boats and the engines had gained a reputation for being bulletproof (would last forever, and never broke down etc).

    At that time it turns out the engines were being used more and more by pleasure craft (sailboats mostly). Everybody knows there are very few hours on sailboat engines compared to workboats. What did Yanmar do? They "cheapened" the engine (i.e. "secretly" made it lighter duty) and, obviously, kept selling it at the same well-established _premium_ price because their past _reputation_ was golden.

    Jan 1, 2008 8:53:05 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: Eaglejackson

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Eaglejackson said:
    How susceptible is the M97 engine to the infamous Rear Main Seal (RMS) leakage problem?



    I had the RMS issue at approx 6000 miles. But they replaced it with a newer type seal and have not had a problem since (18000 miles).

    Jan 1, 2008 9:04:17 PM

    roadtrip
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: facelift 997TT

    if true this imo is a tt tipping point...and not a good one for those tt customers who know s_ _t from shinola...glad for what ive got

    Jan 1, 2008 9:49:56 PM

    cannga
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: facelift 997TT

    FWIW, the GT1 based engines are ALSO susceptible to RMS leak:
    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=397201

    Strangely enough (extremely so IMO), using samples of Porsche forums' posters, the problem so far is ONLY reported in 997 GT3's. None that I know of in 997 Turbo's.

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Eaglejackson said:
    How susceptible is the M97 engine to the infamous Rear Main Seal (RMS) leakage problem?



    I had the RMS issue at approx 6000 miles. But they replaced it with a newer type seal and have not had a problem since (18000 miles).

    Jan 1, 2008 11:52:51 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: cannga

    Re: facelift 997TT

    If this is true, the facelift Turbo definitely won't be my first supercar .

    This would make the 997TT almost impossible to tune reliably, am I correct?

    Jan 2, 2008 4:07:47 AM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Reliable, probably. The m97 ain't great, but it's not a POS either. It can probably sustain 550hp-ish. But it's nothing compared to the gt1. But 90% of buyers could care less, so why not save some scratch, they'll still buy the cars anyway. You can bet the price won't drop either. Probably in the gt3/2's future as well.

    Jan 2, 2008 4:27:01 AM

    DRA
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    I was talking to one of the dealers in town and one of the sales guys that so far has been reliable with his news told me something strange.

    He told me that the upcoming facelift 997TT will incorporate the standars 997 engine with turbo chargers. The existing turbo cars, of course, have the modified old GT1 engine wich will not be cost effective for Porsche anymore. Indeed with the base 997 added turbo chargers Porsche will make approx. USD 10k to 13k more on each car Vs. the GT1 derived engines.

    Now we need to wait and see if he is right or not. Based on my past experience he is been right 9 out of 10 times.


    I expected this might happen with the 998, but it would be VERY interesting (and strange) for it to happen so soon

    This move might pursuade some Porsche Turbo customers to buy a Nissan GT-R instead I really hope Porsche never skimps on the dry sump motors for the GT and Turbo cars



    The GT-R has a wet-sump motor too.

    In a way this could be seen as good news. Porsche may be making the required changed to the M97 to handle the turbo chargers, which might filter `down' to other models.

    Imagine if they start racing them? It can only improve the breed...

    Jan 2, 2008 2:43:07 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    TT Surgeon said:
    Reliable, probably. The m97 ain't great, but it's not a POS either. It can probably sustain 550hp-ish. But it's nothing compared to the gt1. But 90% of buyers could care less, so why not save some scratch, they'll still buy the cars anyway. You can bet the price won't drop either. Probably in the gt3/2's future as well.



    If that is so, I will buy a Gallardo. Years of waiting and working for a Turbo, and now this . So, is the facelift supposed to come this year, or in 2009?

    Jan 2, 2008 3:20:17 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: facelift 997TT

    2009 I think.

    Jan 2, 2008 3:47:24 PM

    paczo911
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    Reply to: DRA

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Somehow I believe that if there is a possibility that Porsche replaces the old GT1 engine from the current GT/Turbo models with a new one, there will be a great sense in developing a brand new dry-sump high performance engine for the super high performance cars such as GT3, GT2 and Turbo models.

    I don't think that the company will destroy its own reputation for building the most endurable sports cars, by simply mounting an weak and unreliable type of engine in their flagship cars...

    They have the resources and the knowledge to replace such a great engine like the GT1's engine with a pretty decent successor, I have no doubt about it.

    Jan 2, 2008 3:59:55 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: paczo911

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    paczo911 said:They have the resources and the knowledge to replace such a great engine like the GT1's engine with a pretty decent successor, I have no doubt about it.


    I don't doubt that either. But I also don't doubt that it would be MUCH more profitable to just use the M97 motor and modify it slightly for turbocharging. Lately, the accountants and managers have had more influence than the engineers at the company

    Jan 2, 2008 4:01:40 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    paczo911 said:They have the resources and the knowledge to replace such a great engine like the GT1's engine with a pretty decent successor, I have no doubt about it.


    I don't doubt that either. But I also don't doubt that it would be MUCH more profitable to just use the M97 motor and modify it slightly for turbocharging. Lately, the accountants and managers have had more influence than the engineers at the company



    So, would the GT2 also get the M97 block? And, since the GT3 would then pretty much remain the sole 964-block car, why not use the M97 block with it as well?

    Jan 2, 2008 4:18:26 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: facelift 997TT

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    paczo911 said:They have the resources and the knowledge to replace such a great engine like the GT1's engine with a pretty decent successor, I have no doubt about it.


    I don't doubt that either. But I also don't doubt that it would be MUCH more profitable to just use the M97 motor and modify it slightly for turbocharging. Lately, the accountants and managers have had more influence than the engineers at the company



    So, would the GT2 also get the M97 block? And, since the GT3 would then pretty much remain the sole 964-block car, why not use the M97 block with it as well?



    GT2 and GT3 *RS* are said to be uneffected by the change of engines...
     
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