Crown

Whoopsy:

The problem with Porsche's e-hybrids is that no one buys them

Dealers mostly have to beg people to buy the Cayenne hybrid version, same with the regular hybrid of the Panamera. Most people still prefer to buy the conventionally powered versions.

I thought Porsche was taken with a storm of orders on those? Maybe it is different in different markets. Maybe it is the Norwegians 

The high performance hybrid version of the Panamera Porsche have no problem selling though, but they aren't made in great numbers anyway. 

The Mission E and Panamera caters to different demographics. The Panamera will be for people that value convenience, where they can freely fill up anywhere in a very short amount of time. The Mission E will be for the adventurous people, eager to try out new things. I haven't seen the real car yet, soon, but all things points to the Mission-E will be slightly overlapping the Model S in pricing but with a much better interior and quality.

I'm eager to see the Mission-E too and if it ticks all the boxes I will be one of those "adventurous people" hehe. Still not convinced about how charging infrastructure etc will be when the car is announced. In 5 years or so it will be sorted, but think it will be rather few 350kW/800v chargers out there initially and if they are placed at Porsche dealerships it's not the best locations for charge up. In 2 years time Tesla have probably also updated Model S with new interior and some general updates. For sure not up to Porsche quality standards, but improved compared to the existing version and might be a very appealing package. Time will tell.

Tesla fired the first salvo in the EV game, like the sneak attack on Pearl Harbour. The outcome of the EV war is just getting started as the big guns of the automobile industry are just moving into positions to start the campaign. Firing first doesn't mean an automatic win, USA the behemoth ended up developing the biggest bomb of them all to end the war, the little Japanese bombs that they dropped on Pearl Harbour are next to nothing when compared with the atomic bombs.

Can Tesla survive the war? History have yet to be written. It is likely that it will, perhaps in another form. 

There are for sure many uncertainties. Tesla will probably continue to deliver EVs for a while now when they have started and have a few more models in the pipeline (Model Y and Roadster at least), but who knows what Elon is up to. The Auto industry is so big and millions of cars will be delivered so there are room for many players. What rather certain is that the global market share we see for the auto companies today will probably be a different landscape in 10 years time.

All in all, extremely interesting to follow the development as a spectator and consumer. At least to me this is much more thrilling than the rather boring evolution with facelifts and smaller changes that we have seen the last 20 years.

It will be interesting to see if the EV industry finally can catch up to what the users demanded, mainly convenience of topping up the 'gas tank' whenever they feel like or needed to, instead of confining to a charging stations for hours. 

For sure. But already today it is quite convenient if you have access to overnight charging and not regulary commute 300km+ on a daily basis.

With all new tech and innovation around the corner EVs will probably be convenient for the mainstream in a few years.

We have front row seats to watch the whole thing unfolds 

Hope not a repost.

The reason why Porsche hybrid sales are so low is because Americans are smarter and buy Teslas instead 

SciFrog:

The reason why Porsche hybrid sales are so low is because Americans are smarter and buy Teslas instead 

Actually it's because they are shit. Utter shit. ( I said that to them in Stuttgart before)

The regular hybrid models, Cayenne and Panamera, went for fuel economy like Prius instead of performance.

They finally got it right with the Panamera Turbo S hybrid, but EPA had other plans for that car and every single one of them are stuck stuck in port.

Who says that hybrid version sales are low for Panamera?

There are more than 50% right now for the whole world!

Markets like Netherland or Norway even more than 75%.

AM

CO2-based taxing and yearly charges? That skews the market.

Extreme example: in Finland Panamera Turbo S fully loaded is 100k€ _cheaper_ than similar Turbo.

in 2017 - 37.000 Panameras sold. Extremly successful.

60% of them hybrid. 80% of all hybrids are Turbo S!

AM

As I said, Porsche got it right with the Panamera Turbo S hybrid.

Actually not -> they have limited the Panamera turbo not to be faster than turbo S. Without this limitation the top speed would be higher of turbo.

What is good is the CO2 tax benefit and the punch between 80 and 120 km/h

AM

ALDO:

in 2017 - 37.000 Panameras sold. Extremly successful.

60% of them hybrid. 80% of all hybrids are Turbo S!

Those figures must be wrong. No way that 18.000 out of the 37.000 sold Panameras in 2017 were Turbo S. You must have got the figures wrong. Maybe if 80% is the ordinary E-hybrid and 20% Turbo S...

Regarding the hybrids I think those who're not used to full EV like Teslas might think the hybrid is okay, but if you're used to full electric mode the hybrid solution will feel very wrong, dated and jerky. Mission-E will for sure sort this and like I've said before, when people get the hang of full EV they don't want to drive something else as a daily. Almost everyone who test drive the Mission-E will just never ever want to sign the papers for a Panamera Petrol. I even think the majority of people in here who today think this is wrong will change their mind in a few years. We'll see 

Maybe this doubling of the electric car investment is a direct consequence of the Mission E testing results. The results were so good that even the die hard purists inside Porsche had their socks knocked off. It wasn't just the electric motor full power launches, but also the extremely low center of gravity which allowed Porsche suspension designers to make a car handle even better than anything with an combustion engine powertrain.

ALDO:

in 2017 - 37.000 Panameras sold. Extremly successful.

60% of them hybrid. 80% of all hybrids are Turbo S!

You mean Porsche sold almost 18.000 Panamera Turbo S in one year?

Doubt that's accurate. It would mean 48% of Panameras were hybrid Turbo. Highly doubt it. I've never even seen one. I'd say they are a small fraction of sales just like the Turbo is a small fraction of 911 sales.

I have to check the numbers! Maybe I have got it wrong.  For sure it was unbelievable.

AM

lukestern:

Regarding the hybrids I think those who're not used to full EV like Teslas might think the hybrid is okay, but if you're used to full electric mode the hybrid solution will feel very wrong, dated and jerky. Mission-E will for sure sort this and like I've said before, when people get the hang of full EV they don't want to drive something else as a daily. Almost everyone who test drive the Mission-E will just never ever want to sign the papers for a Panamera Petrol. I even think the majority of people in here who today think this is wrong will change their mind in a few years. We'll see 

There is still a place for EV and gas hybrid at least until 2030, if not even 2040.

EV cars are for people where range is not an issue, they don't mind not having the convenience of filling up anywhere anytime. 

The petrol hybrid cars are for those that top mind the range issue, and prefer to have the option of filling up in 5 mins.  Others would prefer to still hear an engine running, so these guys have no chance of being a EV convert.

What EV needed in order to go mainstream and take over the car scene is a quick charge network, not the slow Tesla Supercharger ones, but the new 800V standard where a car can get good enough recharge in 5 mins like going to a gas station. The locations also needed to be in greater numbers, much greater than the Supercharger stations. Tesla have many of those but the number still dwarf by any gas station chain. This is where the 15-20 years projection comes in. There is no way anyone can build that many charging stations in 5 or 10 years. That's only the front end. The back end equipment are also lacking, current power distribution network won't be able to handle the peak load, giant transformers will needed to be build and installed, locations acquired, permits obtained, etc.

Another problem is that most people are not living in a standalone house where they can install home charger easily. community parking lot for apartments are not built with EV cars in mind. Some have dedicated charging spots, but those numbers are not nearly enough to support a fleet of EV cars in a complex. Others who live in townhouses in cities like London or New York have other problems. They park their cars on the street, so the charging cable will be lying across walkways or bike lanes, their home insurance will have to bear extra 3rd party liability as pedestrians might trip over the power cable. Or might even be severed if a snow plow went over them, and electrocuted the snow plow operator. 

Until all these problems are solved, and they are all real world problems, not just some far fetched dream up ones, EV will never reach critical mass for adoption. 

Worldwide, Porsche sold 28,000 new Panameras in 2017 (mine was one).  I also read somewhere that over 50% of the new Panameras sold in Germany were hybrids.

That is all beside the point to me.  What is important is Porsche's substantial investment in electrification as noted in the press release I posted above.

Die teilelektrischen Versionen von Porsches Sport-Limousine Panamera verkaufen sich immer besser: Rund 60 Prozent aller neuen Panamera-Modelle, die zuletzt in Europa ausgeliefert wurden, sind mit einer Kombination aus Verbrenner, E-Maschine und Batterie mit Stecker ausgestattet.

In einzelnen Ländern liegen die Hybridanteile laut Porsche bereits deutlich über dem europaweiten Durchschnitt: In Frankreich sind es 70 Prozent, in Österreich mehr als 80 Prozent und in Belgien sogar über 90 Prozent. Auch in Norwegen bestellen 90 Prozent aller Panamera-Kunden ein Hybridmodell, in Finnland sind es 85 Prozent.

AM

Let's forget about the hybrids: Porsche will invest big bucks in ELVs (not hybrids, they are basically a by-product of development) and Tesla will be toast. Amen.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Hybrids are just for a short moment. They don´t make sense - they combine both worlds and have to be fitted to work together which makes it expensive.

ELVs is the future - everyone knows it. Porsche has a roadmap J1 > Macan > Boxster -> all ELV

911 will stay forever non-ELV ->the electrical sportscar will get another name 

AM

RC:

Let's forget about the hybrids: Porsche will invest big bucks in ELVs (not hybrids, they are basically a by-product of development) and Tesla will be toast. Amen.

Still can't take you serious RC with those kind of statements . I know you're German and it's a hard time seeing an American company taking the lead in the future car space where the germans historically has been the leader when it comes to innovation.  But it is what it is 

There will for sure be a market for Porsche, Tesla, the other old car manufacturers and also some new brands. Every EV produced will be sold and demand will be much higher than supply for many years to come. There will also for sure be consumers who prefer a Tesla over a Porsche and vice versa. Market share will also not be anything like we see today in 10-20 years time. Maybe Porsche will grow much bigger due to the heavy investments in BEV. Time will tell.

And btw, the abbreviation ELV does not exist. It is either EV or BEV. Amen.

lukestern:

RC:

Let's forget about the hybrids: Porsche will invest big bucks in ELVs (not hybrids, they are basically a by-product of development) and Tesla will be toast. Amen.

Still can't take you serious RC with those kind of statements . I know you're German and it's a hard time seeing an American company taking the lead in the future car space where the germans historically has been the leader when it comes to innovation.  But it is what it is 

There will for sure be a market for Porsche, Tesla, the other old car manufacturers and also some new brands. Every EV produced will be sold and demand will be much higher than supply for many years to come. There will also for sure be consumers who prefer a Tesla over a Porsche and vice versa. Market share will also not be anything like we see today in 10-20 years time. Maybe Porsche will grow much bigger due to the heavy investments in BEV. Time will tell.

And btw, the abbreviation ELV does not exist. It is either EV or BEV. Amen.

Wanna make a bet?  Symbolic one USD, GBP, EUR, whatever... 

I know what Porsche and VW Group are preparing, I've seen things (probably not even close to everything or the latest developments) and I am very very impressed. Keep in mind that I am no friend of ELVs but I understand the tech well, incl. autonomous driving since I've been a gadget lover and tech nerd all my life.

Tesla will be toast, they cannot survive, unless someone is willing to buy them and/or invest tons of new cash in it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

lukestern:

RC:

Let's forget about the hybrids: Porsche will invest big bucks in ELVs (not hybrids, they are basically a by-product of development) and Tesla will be toast. Amen.

Still can't take you serious RC with those kind of statements . I know you're German and it's a hard time seeing an American company taking the lead in the future car space where the germans historically has been the leader when it comes to innovation.  But it is what it is 

There will for sure be a market for Porsche, Tesla, the other old car manufacturers and also some new brands. Every EV produced will be sold and demand will be much higher than supply for many years to come. There will also for sure be consumers who prefer a Tesla over a Porsche and vice versa. Market share will also not be anything like we see today in 10-20 years time. Maybe Porsche will grow much bigger due to the heavy investments in BEV. Time will tell.

And btw, the abbreviation ELV does not exist. It is either EV or BEV. Amen.

Wanna make a bet?  Symbolic one USD, GBP, EUR, whatever... 

Nope, I'll pass thank you. Seems a bit odd to bet with a stranger. We can continue to discuss this without any money involved.

I know what Porsche and VW Group are preparing, I've seen things (probably not even close to everything or the latest developments) and I am very very impressed. Keep in mind that I am no friend of ELVs but I understand the tech well, incl. autonomous driving since I've been a gadget lover and tech nerd all my life.

The specs and facts that has been revealed is not that ground braking if we speak the EV-part with battery, capacity, charging speeds, performance, etc. But if there are some cool shit coming up I'm all in for that! Then my case for buying a Mission-E will be even stronger which is great 

Regarding autonomous driving there will for sure be some interesting things coming up during 2018. It will be interesting to see how Tesla improve the AP later this year and what they can achieve with Neural networks, image recognition and exclude the expensive and bulky Lidar.

Tesla will be toast, they cannot survive, unless someone is willing to buy them and/or invest tons of new cash in it.

Okay, there was the toast again. We'll see where the toast is in a few years 

VAG can't even get diesel technology right, so let's wait and see how well their EV stuff works before we call Tesla toast LOL

noone1:

VAG can't even get diesel technology right, so let's wait and see how well their EV stuff works before we call Tesla toast LOL

Of course they got it right, they made it as profitable as possible by cheating. 

You need to understand that companies are here to make money, not to make people happy. I do not agree with what VW did (Diesel cheating) but this is how companies all over the world work. Some get caught, others don't.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

What's to understand? Their engineers weren't good enough to make it work.

noone1:

What's to understand? Their engineers weren't good enough to make it work.

Correction.

Their engineers are not good enough to HIDE the cheating part. 

noone1:

What's to understand? Their engineers weren't good enough to make it work.

I think you got it wrong. It would have costed much more and they had to stay within a certain cost frame. To achieve the goal(s), better and/or additional hardware was required and this would have made cars more expensive by a couple of hundreds of EUR (production cost!).

Another problem was with Diesel cars using aqueous urea solution. Usually, that urea solution needed to be refilled after 10000-15000 km, which was OK. Now, after the software updates, often every 5000-7000 km. 

Meaning: They tricked with the software to achieve a lower urea solution consumption. Why? Because customers wouldn't have really bought cars which require an Ad-Blue (urea solution) refill every 5000-7000 km. I even heard of some cars which require the refill every 3000-4000 km, which is insane. Keep in mind that after the Ad-Blue reservoir is empty (you get various warnings before that happens), you cannot start the engine anymore. 

Was that illegal? Of course but this had nothing to do with skills but with cost and maybe greed. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

So what you're saying is that their engineers couldn't create technology that was affordable enough.

noone1:

So what you're saying is that their engineers couldn't create technology that was affordable enough.

Here...I fixed it for you: profitable 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Sounds like they need smarter, more innovative engineers.