Crown

nberry:

MKSGR:

RC:

Inspirine:

I am on the same page. Despite track record in buying new Porsche including 991.1 GT3 RS and track records all together (tracking Porsches in FIA races) I got denied a R, a 991.2 GT2 RS and 991.2 GT3 RS.

I can't wait to see the back fire happening on Porsche if both things happen in same timing:

- Trump close borders for Porsche (affecting 40% of Porsche turnover)

??? The US could raise import taxes on cars (by 25% or so...) but thats it. Porsche would still be able to sell cars in the US, just at higher prices...or they just bump up EU prices and keep US prices the same. 

 

It seems likely Porsche would reallocate cars to other (more attractive) markets. Import duties mostly destroy the wealth of the US citizens. But it will take time until the simpler voters will understand 

 If tariffs are assessed by the US, they will have significant impact on German auto manufacturers. According to some experts, many will not survive should the tariffs be permanent. Don't underestimate the importance of the US market.

German car manufacturers are so concerned they have gone on record to say tariffs on all cars regardless of of the place of manufacture should be tariff free. The German representative is proposing this to the US delegation.

BTW, the US market is no longer that substantial compared to Europe + Asia + ROW. The impact an European OEMs will be not so big that they will cause major trouble. 

Exports to the US accounts for only 20% of total German car production. If 25%-50% of this would vanish for 2-3 years (until the next president) the impact would be not critical at all:

https://www.vda.de/de/services/zahlen-und-daten/jahreszahlen/export.html

There’s some smart people here - love to read what they have to say on these kinds of things 

2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1

nberry:

 

My dealers whether Porsche or Landrover treat me like I am their only customer. From sales to service, they go out of their way to satisfy my requests.

Yes, like with the problems with your GT3.2

watt:

nberry:

 

My dealers whether Porsche or Landrover treat me like I am their only customer. From sales to service, they go out of their way to satisfy my requests.

Yes, like with the problems with your GT3.2

Watt, my car was driveable. Had I insisted they replace the oil tank immediately they would have. The dealer was in a bind and I accommodated him. That’s why I get the cars everyone wants at MSRP.

Regarding the tariffs, if Europeans believe that the US market for European cars is insignificant watch how the EU cave on the issue. I am against what a Trump is doing but I have a question for Europeans. If US cars are so inferior why are your countries assessing tariffs against them? The US doesn’t place tariffs on European cars entering the US so explain to me why the EU does it.

Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.

Politics?  

My only comment is that Trump is a deal maker. If he did not see an imbalance to take advantage of he would not be trying to capitalize on it. Have we not seen this many many times from him. Let it play out. He always makes certain everyone walks away feeling like they won in the end. Take a breath and let it unfold. Pretty harmless stuff if I you have been paying attention.  Nice to see him trying. 

Btw. As nick points out. If US cars are crap and Europe makes such good cars why put a tariff on them?  And what about a import duties to Denmark or Sweden?  Australia anyone?  Is trade with the US not better if there are no tariffs on either side?  Does someone who knows everything about economics believe economics applies to each country differently?

Leawood911:

Politics?  

My only comment is that Trump is a deal maker. If he did not see an imbalance to take advantage of he would not be trying to capitalize on it. Have we not seen this many many times from him. Let it play out. He always makes certain everyone walks away feeling like they won in the end. Take a breath and let it unfold. Pretty harmless stuff if I you have been paying attention.  Nice to see him trying. 

 

Btw. As nick points out. If US cars are crap and Europe makes such good cars why put a tariff on them?  And what about a import duties to Denmark or Sweden?  Australia anyone?  Is trade with the US not better if there are no tariffs on either side?  Does someone who knows everything about economics believe economics applies to each country differently?

I see your points. No tariffs would certainly be best. The customer could then buy what he feels is the best product. 

With regards to cars the US buyer (and the European as well) is doing this already - despite limited tariffs, I feel. The European cars have many advantages if price is no problem. But, of course, we on this forum know this all.

My conclusion: current tariffs on cars have hardly any impact on car buyer’s decisons. They currently buy based on product quality preferences. That is Trumps problem. He does not understand the situation and destroys links to old friends. Next time he needs friends they will all be gone. That’s how life works 

Leawood911:

...what about a import duties to Denmark or Sweden?

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

A last point: German car exports to the US are just 20bn. So the maximum monetary damage would be 25% on this, i.e. 5bn. The real effect will be much smaller, of course, as OEMs will develop and use the best strategy. 

So the question is if it is smart to f*** up with all your old friends to win a penny. The answer is: of course, this is extremely stupid. Only if somebody doesn’t have the capabilities to understand this you might feel it is “clever”. He will learn the hard way.

I am not sure it is f*** up with your old friends to ask for equal (ideally no) tariffs. Pretty reciprocal and balanced no. Not sure Europe dropping tariffs to US levels impacts the European industry negatively frankly

BTW if the average European politician had half a brain (which unfortunately these permanently salaries people in Brussels seem to be immune from) they would announce $100bn of military aircraft purchases from the US and the whole trade issue would go away....

Unfortunate their aircraft is of the same quality as their cars 

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

We have an American president who considers his citizens better friends, for once. Also, fair trade and balancing the equation should not cost you friends. At least not the kind of friends worth keeping. We really have no need to pay for or buy our friends. We do have a need to have a president who considers his own country First. No crime in that. I get that some who vote don’t understand that part of voting is supporting the winner or at least not overthrowing him without cause.  So sad. Rome fell how?

MKSGR:

A last point: German car exports to the US are just 20bn. So the maximum monetary damage would be 25% on this, i.e. 5bn. The real effect will be much smaller, of course, as OEMs will develop and use the best strategy. 

So the question is if it is smart to f*** up with all your old friends to win a penny. The answer is: of course, this is extremely stupid. Only if somebody doesn’t have the capabilities to understand this you might feel it is “clever”. He will learn the hard way.

I don’t know wher you got the 20bn from but it’s way off base. The value of auto exports from Germany to the US is substantially higher. It’s closer to 170bn.

Germany exports over a Trillion dollars in goods. Why is it necessary to place tariffs on US cars when the trade deficit in favor of Germany is so lopsided? It’s indefensible. I don’t like a Trump but he has a point here. I wish he would just sit down and work it out with our trading rather than publicizing the issue.

Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.

A photo of a 991.2 GT3 RS...

Leawood911:

We have an American president who considers his citizens better friends, for once. Also, fair trade and balancing the equation should not cost you friends. At least not the kind of friends worth keeping. We really have no need to pay for or buy our friends. We do have a need to have a president who considers his own country First. No crime in that. I get that some who vote don’t understand that part of voting is supporting the winner or at least not overthrowing him without cause.  So sad. Rome fell how?

It is not about fair trade - but about breaking contracts. Problem is people who don‘t get it. Do some research and don‘t believe every bs. Keyword: WTO.

nberry:

MKSGR:

A last point: German car exports to the US are just 20bn. So the maximum monetary damage would be 25% on this, i.e. 5bn. The real effect will be much smaller, of course, as OEMs will develop and use the best strategy. 

So the question is if it is smart to f*** up with all your old friends to win a penny. The answer is: of course, this is extremely stupid. Only if somebody doesn’t have the capabilities to understand this you might feel it is “clever”. He will learn the hard way.

I don’t know wher you got the 20bn from but it’s way off base. The value of auto exports from Germany to the US is substantially higher. It’s closer to 170bn.

Germany exports over a Trillion dollars in goods. Why is it necessary to place tariffs on US cars when the trade deficit in favor of Germany is so lopsided? It’s indefensible. I don’t like a Trump but he has a point here. I wish he would just sit down and work it out with our trading rather than publicizing the issue.

See link above, Nick. Also, regarding number of cars:

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/11/news/economy/german-cars-trump-trade/index.html

As a first consequence of the tariffs against China German OEMs might lay off several 1000s of US employees in their Us plants as US produced cars can no longer be exported to Asia as needed. Also, new international investments into the US will also put on hold, as the US is no longer an attractive region to be active in for building export products. Very interesting experiment for the US... Interesting to see how quickly the development will get out of hands...

To illustrate the idea (quoted from CNBC):

“

In 2017, German automakers alone were invested in 265 plants across the country and employed approximately 110,000 American workers.

According to Germany's Association of the Automotive Industry, Germans produced 854,000 vehicles in the U.S. in 2016, a four-fold increase in about seven years. More than 60 percent of those were exported to foreign markets.“

nberry:

watt:

nberry:

 

My dealers whether Porsche or Landrover treat me like I am their only customer. From sales to service, they go out of their way to satisfy my requests.

Yes, like with the problems with your GT3.2

Watt, my car was driveable. Had I insisted they replace the oil tank immediately they would have. The dealer was in a bind and I accommodated him. That’s why I get the cars everyone wants at MSRP.

Regarding the tariffs, if Europeans believe that the US market for European cars is insignificant watch how the EU cave on the issue. I am against what a Trump is doing but I have a question for Europeans. If US cars are so inferior why are your countries assessing tariffs against them? The US doesn’t place tariffs on European cars entering the US so explain to me why the EU does it.

trade is more complicated than that. it does not make sense to say: you have tariffs on our good A, so we put the same tariffs on the same good. i just read an article in the economist (latest issue i guess), which explains very well the overall trade situation and concludes that trump did not do his homework. i do not completely agree with that, most likely he has people who understand basic economics but he does all it takes to please his voters. 

and back to cars: yes american cars are inferior, possibly less now than 15 years ago but still inferior. i guess we all know that. btw, the reason why the US car industry has been catching up is globalization::::))) without that the americans would still be driving those pieces of junk they used to drive 20 years ago.

also i believe that the US market is important for porsche and the other german carmakers but they could digest a shrinking there, which could be balanced by more aggressive pricing elsewhere (asia).

Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS looks great in black...

That is spectacular...

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

That is spectacular...

Yes, but only when clean and not on a track ...

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Porsche 991.2 GT3 RS looks great in black...

Looks like a test car  There is a reason they are black...

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

Like it in black with the gold wheels. The tinted windows is however not my cup of tea. Makes it look a bit ricer.

Gnil:

the-missile:

That is spectacular...

Yes, but only when clean and not on a track ...

clean or not it is fine...but why not on track?

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

Gnil:

the-missile:

That is spectacular...

Yes, but only when clean and not on a track ...

clean or not it is fine...but why not on track?

I find black cars  on a track very dull . The car does not show any '' pop'' and is kind of so bent it that it is not noticeable .

That's why I also say it works only when clean . On public road , a flashy color on an RS is often a bit too much , specially when used regularly and in a city . So black then is fine , can be more elegant and subtile . ( this is valid only for the RS' s  and maybe the GT3 )

--

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

...unless one likes to have a flashy color car in the city and on the track... ... I saw a lava red GT3 RS driving through Peschiera del Garda last week and didn‘t had the impression that it looked that flashy...but each to his own...

The whole point of sport cars is to be flashy. 

Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.

nberry:

The whole point of sport cars is to be flashy. 

I hope you are joking 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

The whole point of sport cars is to be flashy. 

I hope you are joking 

i'd say if it not flashy then it is useless as a sport car

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

The whole point of sport cars is to be flashy. 

I hope you are joking 

Carlos, sport cars should look, sound and perform different from sedans and SUV's. Black is not a color that one associates with sport cars. (Nick my apologizes )

Being adventurous can be risky but routine is lethal.

nberry:

Carlos from Spain:

nberry:

The whole point of sport cars is to be flashy. 

I hope you are joking 

Carlos, sport cars should look, sound and perform different from sedans and SUV's. Black is not a color that one associates with sport cars. (Nick my apologizes )

You said flashy, looking sporty and good is different than looking flashy, and in that list of priorities the performance and sound is miles above looking flashy.

In fact looking flashy may be a negative for many enthusiasts who don't want ton flash the car but rather enjoy its performance, sound and looks (doesn't need to be flashy to look great). Black while not flashy is one of the sportiest colors, very fitting for a "sports"car 

Different tastes 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS