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    Nov 19, 2007 1:26:25 PM

    shin
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    not sure I would count on a different engine, this one still has some headroom no? goes to 4.7 liters in the alfa car right?



    That will be the F149's engine (either 4.7L or still 4.3L), not for the F142



    Don't you think F149 and F142 will share the same engine just with different power output?



    I really don't. Ferrari is going with a lightweight approach for the F142 and it includes the engine. I believe they will go with a twin-turbocharged smaller capacity engine.

    Either the 4.3L, Maserati's new 4.7L or a 4.0L derived from one of them for the F149...tuned for torque...



    But the V8 is already a rather light engine.

    Anyway, if a turbocharged V8 really becomes true, I wonder if this will be as direct and thrilling as the current NA engine?



    I completely understand your concern as turbocharged engines tend to be percepted as more relaxed and not as high revving as an NA engine, but, I read that Ferrari would take a different approach and their future turbo engines will be VERY high revving, like 10,000 rpms. I'm not familiar with Ferrari's history with turbos like the F40 but I really think they're going to make a revolution. I think we can rest assured that the F142's engine will be a masterpiece...

    Nov 19, 2007 2:25:03 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    not sure I would count on a different engine, this one still has some headroom no? goes to 4.7 liters in the alfa car right?



    That will be the F149's engine (either 4.7L or still 4.3L), not for the F142



    Don't you think F149 and F142 will share the same engine just with different power output?



    I really don't. Ferrari is going with a lightweight approach for the F142 and it includes the engine. I believe they will go with a twin-turbocharged smaller capacity engine.

    Either the 4.3L, Maserati's new 4.7L or a 4.0L derived from one of them for the F149...tuned for torque...



    But the V8 is already a rather light engine.

    Anyway, if a turbocharged V8 really becomes true, I wonder if this will be as direct and thrilling as the current NA engine?



    I completely understand your concern as turbocharged engines tend to be percepted as more relaxed and not as high revving as an NA engine, but, I read that Ferrari would take a different approach and their future turbo engines will be VERY high revving, like 10,000 rpms. I'm not familiar with Ferrari's history with turbos like the F40 but I really think they're going to make a revolution. I think we can rest assured that the F142's engine will be a masterpiece...



    I hope you're right. So the only concern is, that they'll get the design right this time. Don't get me wrong, the 430 and the 599 are great cars, but at least IMO they are not as good looking as earlier Ferrari. Also the 360 was nice, but not aggressive enough for my taste.

    I really hope Ferrari gets it right this time, both with engine and design. Then I will be the happiest person on the planet.

    Nov 19, 2007 2:40:49 PM

    Modrocket_stereo
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    You can say that again Rossi. I hope the styling language moves from where it is currently.

    Nov 19, 2007 2:43:42 PM

    shin
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    shin
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Believe me Rossi, that thought is haunting me too. I couldn't agree more with you about the F430 and the 599. For what's it's worth, I'm glad neither Ken Okuyama or Frank Stephenson is in charge of the design. Now we rely on Donato Coco (and Pininfarina).. I really hope he makes Ferraris beautiful again, starting with the California GT...

    Nov 19, 2007 3:56:20 PM

    cgt
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Stefan I couldn't agree with you more. I owned two 360's and two 430's and they are essentially the same car except for the engine and modified suspension.. Hell, even Ferrari acknowledges this in their petiition for an exemption.

    To continue to sell this car with dated technology is a page out of the Porsche book.



    Likewise here, multiple 360 owner but was never really too keen on F430 because of the similarity to 360. I hope the new car will be something radical, and the low weight concept would fit with what was said recently by Ferrari engineers when discussing the technical concept they showed that looked like a baby Enzo (which incidentally I think looks quite dated now).

    Nov 19, 2007 5:33:18 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    shin said:
    Believe me Rossi, that thought is haunting me too. I couldn't agree more with you about the F430 and the 599. For what's it's worth, I'm glad neither Ken Okuyama or Frank Stephenson is in charge of the design. Now we rely on Donato Coco (and Pininfarina).. I really hope he makes Ferraris beautiful again, starting with the California GT...



    I could imagine something like this...

    Nov 19, 2007 5:34:14 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    ... or this:

    Nov 19, 2007 7:10:07 PM

    Modrocket_stereo
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Those were from the Ferrari design contest that happened a couple years ago.

    Nov 19, 2007 8:56:39 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Believe me Rossi, that thought is haunting me too. I couldn't agree more with you about the F430 and the 599. For what's it's worth, I'm glad neither Ken Okuyama or Frank Stephenson is in charge of the design. Now we rely on Donato Coco (and Pininfarina).. I really hope he makes Ferraris beautiful again, starting with the California GT...



    I could imagine something like this...



    I'd buy that. Immediately.

    Nov 20, 2007 6:49:06 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: Modrocket_stereo

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    Modrocket_stereo said:
    Those were from the Ferrari design contest that happened a couple years ago.



    Exactly. "Concepts of a myth", to be correct. I think we will see some styling elements of these studies in future F-cars.

    Nov 20, 2007 8:40:12 PM

    supraman55
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Hi there guys. I want to share with you information I just have posted on f-chat.

    I have just finished phone talk with my dealer in Germany. I can say that he always was very reputable and always had all fresh news from F-factory. He told me about 430 Scuderia launch back in April, when I have not heard even not a word from any mag or web. All that he said was confirmed only in July, when first offical reviews showed up in press. So I called my dealer to discuss my December 430 Scuderia colours and selected options and we had 2 hours phone talk regarding my 430 Scuderia specs and about Ferrari new models adding to Ferrari model range in 2008/2009. And so what he told me about Ferrari future models:

    1) "F149" or so called 430 California GT will be launched next Spring, during Geneva auto show (similar information from his F-dealer have F-chat member "icemanbops". This car will be equipped with more than 500 HP engine and will be priced aproximatly same as current F430 Berlinetta. Only thing my dealer in not sure is if 430 California GT will be hardtop convertible, but told me that this scenario is quite expected.

    2) "F142" will be launched in September 2009, during Frankfurt auto show, Spider will be launched in January 2010, during Detroit auto show. So Ferrari will continue their FIVE YEARS PRODUCTION CYCLE:

    F355 - 1994
    360 Modena - 1999
    F430 - 2004
    "F142" - 2009

    So this seems quite logical and possible scenario. My dealer told me that "F142" will feature completely new style, chassis, engine, interior - everything. My dealer told that with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio and that "F142" probably will be equipped with monocoque chassis and full carbon body. "F142" will be to the 360 Modena/F430 range, like what the 360 Modena was to the 348/355 range. So it will next step in F-supercars developement.

    May be my other news and information is not so important for 360/430 section but still I will post it down here:

    1) SLR Roadster's big market success inspired Ferrari to launch 599 Spider sooner as expected. This Ferrari convertible will be launched next Autumn or at least during Detroit auto show in January 2009. Now Ferrari is working on some extraordinary roof construction to make car totally unique. 599 Spider will have 640 HP engine, 20 HP more than 599 GTB. That is all information my dealer have as for now, but he promissed to keep me updating, because I really want to order one and put down my name for it.

    2) Ferrari is continuing F40 - F50 - Enzo - F70 SEVEN YEARS PRODUCTION CYCLE. Year 2009 will be the year of NEXT Ferrari HYPERCAR launch. My dealer do not know any tech details of F70 as for now.

    That is all I know from my dealer about Ferrari new models. I hope so much that my given information is fresh and true. Best.

    Nov 20, 2007 9:57:12 PM

    vinnie
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    Reply to: supraman55

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Thanks for the information Supraman, very interesting.

    It will be surprising but great if Ferrari decides on a "full carbon body" on the F142.

    I look forward very much in seeing what Ferrari will do for their next hypercar.
    Maybe turbocharging along with a beautiful and timeless design (like the F40) will be on the cards.

    Welcome to Rennteam.

    Nov 21, 2007 12:31:26 AM

    mv
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    Reply to: vinnie

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?

    Nov 21, 2007 1:33:19 AM

    shin
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    Reply to: mv

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"

    Those expecting very high horsepower jump will be in for a disappointment, I believe. In fact, I have a feeling that even those expecting a HP increase at all over the F430/Scuderia will be for a disappointment as well.. I even anticipate a slight decrease in horsepower (!). Wait, hear me out first. If the Audi R8 can perform really, really well with just 420 hp, just imagine what a smaller and much lighter Ferrari without AWD can do..

    But those expecting McLaren-F1-horsepower-to-weight-ratio or a 'Ferrari Elise/Exige' will be in for a treat, again I believe..

    Nov 21, 2007 1:51:11 AM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"

    Those expecting very high horsepower jump will be in for a disappointment, I believe. In fact, I have a feeling that even those expecting a HP increase at all over the F430/Scuderia will be for a disappointment as well..

    But those expecting McLaren-F1-horsepower-to-weight-ratio or a 'Ferrari Elise/Exige' will be in for a treat, again I believe..



    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?

    Nov 21, 2007 2:26:31 AM

    shin
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    shin
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"

    Those expecting very high horsepower jump will be in for a disappointment, I believe. In fact, I have a feeling that even those expecting a HP increase at all over the F430/Scuderia will be for a disappointment as well..

    But those expecting McLaren-F1-horsepower-to-weight-ratio or a 'Ferrari Elise/Exige' will be in for a treat, again I believe..



    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    Yes, there have been two different insider info about the F149's pricing. I still believe that it would be cheaper than F430 but not very much, perhaps only 10-15%. If we assume the F142 will be 20-25% more than F430, it would make the perfect pricing for the future Ferrari lineup, wouldn't it?

    I can't find an example of a mid-engined supercar that is cheaper both to sell and manufacture than its front-engined counterpart with the same engine derivatives used.

    Or how about this way : with the F149, Ferrari expects to almost double its production and sell more F149s than F430s. After the F430 is replaced by the F142, I have no doubt that the F149 will be the biggest volume seller (hence, the new entry level). They would not be able to do that if the F149 costs more than the F430, IMHO..

    I could be wrong, though. We'll see at Geneva (or Paris??)

    Nov 21, 2007 6:56:56 AM

    andrea
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    confirmation of what we already knew about info-launch f142&f149. I know this: 2010 for new F70

    Nov 21, 2007 7:24:25 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: supraman55

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    supraman55 said:
    My dealer told me that "F142" will feature completely new style, chassis, engine, interior - everything. My dealer told that with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio and that "F142" probably will be equipped with monocoque chassis and full carbon body. "F142" will be to the 360 Modena/F430 range, like what the 360 Modena was to the 348/355 range. So it will next step in F-supercars developement.



    If that is true (though I still have some doubt concerning the monocoque and CF), then the fantastic Scuderia will indeed be seen as just an other V8-Ferrari.

    Nov 21, 2007 7:26:54 AM

    supraman55
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    Reply to: andrea

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    andrea said:
    confirmation of what we already knew about info-launch f142&f149. I know this: 2010 for new F70



    2009 for F70. Ferari will not go away from seven years F40-F50-Enzo-F70 production cycle. May be 2009 launch with sales starting in 2010. Best.

    Nov 21, 2007 7:32:25 AM

    supraman55
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    supraman55 said:
    My dealer told me that "F142" will feature completely new style, chassis, engine, interior - everything. My dealer told that with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio and that "F142" probably will be equipped with monocoque chassis and full carbon body. "F142" will be to the 360 Modena/F430 range, like what the 360 Modena was to the 348/355 range. So it will next step in F-supercars developement.



    If that is true (though I still have some doubt concerning the monocoque and CF), then the fantastic Scuderia will indeed be seen as just an other V8-Ferrari.



    My dealer suggests that it can be true, even after Alfa 8C launch. If Ferrari is going lightweight way, then there is no other way to go, only Porsche CGT way. Best.

    Nov 21, 2007 10:37:01 AM

    Italo
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"

    Those expecting very high horsepower jump will be in for a disappointment, I believe. In fact, I have a feeling that even those expecting a HP increase at all over the F430/Scuderia will be for a disappointment as well..

    But those expecting McLaren-F1-horsepower-to-weight-ratio or a 'Ferrari Elise/Exige' will be in for a treat, again I believe..



    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    so you will be driving the entry level car

    Nov 21, 2007 11:47:11 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: Italo

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    ITALO said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"

    Those expecting very high horsepower jump will be in for a disappointment, I believe. In fact, I have a feeling that even those expecting a HP increase at all over the F430/Scuderia will be for a disappointment as well..

    But those expecting McLaren-F1-horsepower-to-weight-ratio or a 'Ferrari Elise/Exige' will be in for a treat, again I believe..



    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    so you will be driving the entry level car



    He already does that at the moment.

    Nov 21, 2007 2:20:09 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    Because the 430 replacement will be priced higher than the 149...

    Nov 21, 2007 3:40:41 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    Because the 430 replacement will be priced higher than the 149...



    Significantly higher. And more extreme. The "next" F430 will be more of a Testarossa-replacement than a F430-Replacement. No flat-12 though

    Nov 21, 2007 4:16:27 PM

    vinnie
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    That will mean that the new F142 will no longer be a direct competitor to the Gallardo.

    F142 will be in a different league.

    You could say in the market segment between the LP 640 and the Gallardo.

    What else is in that range/price from other manufacturers.

    Nov 21, 2007 6:14:50 PM

    mv
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    Reply to: shin

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    shin said:
    Quote:
    mv said:
    Thanks for posting supraman.

    Does it still apply, that the F142 is to get a 570-590hp V8 ?



    I think, we ought to read between the lines :

    "with "F142" Ferrari is now focusing not on HP amount, but more on horsepower/ton ratio"




    Supraman wrote just a few weeks ago on ferrarichat, that the F142 would have a 570-590hp V8 while being lighter than the F430 Scuderia.

    He now confirmed again the part about the weight, but no word on HP this time...

    Nov 21, 2007 7:16:11 PM

    janus Offline
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    Reply to: mv

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    I guess they are trying to avoid being placed in the same basket with anyone.
    Trying to jump out of the basket and letting people choose freely is the right thing to do IMO.
    Best thing is to pick a car that suites you most and not how it would compare to xy - cause that means you will loose now or in a few years and that kills the brand IMO.

    Nov 21, 2007 8:21:26 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: vinnie

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    vinnie said:
    That will mean that the new F142 will no longer be a direct competitor to the Gallardo.

    F142 will be in a different league.

    You could say in the market segment between the LP 640 and the Gallardo.

    What else is in that range/price from other manufacturers.



    Not sure about that. Gallardo will also move upwards. Already now prices are around 180k, not talking about the Superleggera here. Next Gallardo will be as expensive as the F430-successor and will make room for a twin-turbo-R8 for example.

    Nov 21, 2007 8:23:32 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I agree. HP will be scaled back in favor of less weight and other performance enhancements. Note that the California GT will be priced at about 430 or above. My question is what market are they targeting? At that price point, who would choose the 149 over the 430 replacement?



    Because the 430 replacement will be priced higher than the 149...



    Significantly higher. And more extreme. The "next" F430 will be more of a Testarossa-replacement than a F430-Replacement. No flat-12 though



    Well, let's hope that the driving feel will be more like the F430 or Scuderia than the heavy and somehow sluggish Testarossa.

    Nov 21, 2007 8:51:25 PM

    vinnie
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: News on the 430 Replacement

    Quote:


    Not sure about that. Gallardo will also move upwards. Already now prices are around 180k, not talking about the Superleggera here. Next Gallardo will be as expensive as the F430-successor and will make room for a twin-turbo-R8 for example.



    I hope you are right, I welcome this because with the increased competition the cars
    get better and faster.
     
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