Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8 - Page1

Nov 14, 2007 11:01:36 AM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005

Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Maybe the victim gains the dubious fame of having suffered the first fatal accident in an R8 ?

http://www.oberberg-aktuell.de/show-article.php?iRubrikID=1&iArticleID=69083

Sounds like the typical deadly mix: testdrive with a high powered sportscar, strong rain, tricky corner, too much speed + no seatbelt

What happened: long right bend on a (Autobahn-like designed) road - driver doesn't manage the turn, hence bumps into the armco at the left side (separating the lane from the oncoming traffic), car bounces to the opposite, "shaves" a roadsign some 150m after the first impact, bumps sideways into a crash-wall and comes to a halt on top of the armco.

Police assumed that the side impact killed the driver. They also are quite sure that the driver didn't use the safety belt

AUDI is about to examine the wreck (I guess for R&D purposes).

Sounds like the old story: driving a potent sportscar makes some people believe that improved driving skills are part of the package and that the limits of driving physics can be expanded with such a fine car

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Nov 14, 2007 12:19:27 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

A pity but sometimes this things help us consider that driving a powerful car doens't make us wonderful drivers.
I'm scared by my Turbo and i always will.

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Nov 14, 2007 12:28:48 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

This guy would have survived had he worn a seatbelt. Most crashes nowadays are survivable unless coming to a very sudden stop or rolling for a long distance.

When will people learn?

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Nov 14, 2007 12:34:42 PM

amazon: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Belgium , Belgium; Posts: 2110, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 5, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

I don't even feel sorry for the guy.

If you can't even put your seatbelt on...no to add that the R8 is such a new car that you can't be used to it yet to drive it at high speed in the rain and on a public road.

When are people gonna learn...

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Nov 14, 2007 1:51:11 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: amazon

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
amazon said:
When are people gonna learn...

Some people never.

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Nov 14, 2007 1:52:15 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: amazon

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
amazon said:
I don't even feel sorry for the guy.

If you can't even put your seatbelt on...no to add that the R8 is such a new car that you can't be used to it yet to drive it at high speed in the rain and on a public road.

When are people gonna learn...

I can understand him flooring it - simple miscalculation and it could happen to any of us. What really infuriates me is the guy not using a seatbelt and he now represents another fatality which will be attributable to fast driving.

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Nov 14, 2007 4:03:13 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Crash

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Crash said:
This guy would have survived had he worn a seatbelt. Most crashes nowadays are survivable unless coming to a very sudden stop or rolling for a long distance.

When will people learn?

Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

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Nov 14, 2007 4:05:43 PM

Pentium: Rennteam Master; Loc: Earth , Romania; Posts: 3055, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 27, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Guys, do you think that at least he died happy?

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Nov 14, 2007 4:07:11 PM

MarekN: Pilot; Loc: Czech Republic; Posts: 409, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

I could understand a seatbelt saving you in a head-on collision, but what do you mean in this particular case?

How could a seat belt save you in this case, when you can clearly see that the main impact was square against the driver? When you have your seatbelt on, do you feel protected by it from a hit in this direction? I know I don't. Maybe with a five-point harness.

The thing is, even with curtain airbags or side airbags in this case, there is much less protection from the side in a car. Just look at a car from above to see what is going on.

Look at what happened to Markko Martin's co-driver Michael Parks in a Focus WRC. He was killed by a fairly innocent looking impact (by WRC standards), but it was a side impact, and that made all the difference.

Side impacts are way more dangerous. That is why the Volvo S40, for example, has incredible door thickness and locates the driver much deeper inside the cabin.

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Nov 14, 2007 4:08:07 PM

Papillon: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 50, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 15, 2003; Reply to: Pentium

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Sorry, I can't read German. Does it say he was 27 years old?

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Nov 14, 2007 4:14:24 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Papillon

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Papillon said:
Sorry, I can't read German. Does it say he was 27 years old?

Yes.

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Nov 14, 2007 4:29:54 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Papillon

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Papillon said:
Sorry, I can't read German. Does it say he was 27 years old?

Yes, 27 years old

I agree that there is no point in discussing whether the driver would have survived the crash using the seat belt (indeed it could be that the strong side impact would have killed him either way), it's just beyond me why some people do not use the seat belt. Actually here in Germany the police recently observed a trend of a weaker saftey belt discipline - I just wonder what triggered this dangerous trend

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Nov 14, 2007 4:32:13 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MarekN

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
MarekN said:
I could understand a seatbelt saving you in a head-on collision, but what do you mean in this particular case?

How could a seat belt save you in this case, when you can clearly see that the main impact was square against the driver? When you have your seatbelt on, do you feel protected by it from a hit in this direction? I know I don't. Maybe with a five-point harness.

The thing is, even with curtain airbags or side airbags in this case, there is much less protection from the side in a car. Just look at a car from above to see what is going on.

Look at what happened to Markko Martin's co-driver Michael Parks in a Focus WRC. He was killed by a fairly innocent looking impact (by WRC standards), but it was a side impact, and that made all the difference.

Side impacts are way more dangerous. That is why the Volvo S40, for example, has incredible door thickness and locates the driver much deeper inside the cabin.

The problem very likely wasn't the left-side impact at all, but he, being unfastened, was very likely being tossed around the cockpit like a rag doll. Breaking your neck is very easy under those circumstances. My mother as a doctor has seen many such injuries and the sad fact is that most crashes with fatalities would have been survivable with seatbelts fastened (where seatbelts were not worn). The article also doesn't say which side impact supposedly killed the driver.

svtrader, you're talking out of your rear. Firstly, it was not a head-on collision and second of all, airbags or not, the survivability rate in head-on collisions is higher with seatbelt usage.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:11:50 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Actually here in Germany the police recently observed a trend of a weaker saftey belt discipline - I just wonder what triggered this dangerous trend

I absolutely don't understand why people do such things. For me the first thing in a car is to fasten the seatbelt. Most of the time even before I start the engine. I don't even FEEL safe without the belt when driving.
I have absolutely no understanding for those who don't use the seatbelts. IMO the fines are still far too low.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:13:46 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Actually here in Germany the police recently observed a trend of a weaker saftey belt discipline - I just wonder what triggered this dangerous trend

I absolutely don't understand why people do such things. For me the first thing in a car is to fasten the seatbelt. Most of the time even before I start the engine. I don't even FEEL safe without the belt when driving.
I have absolutely no understanding for those who don't use the seatbelts. IMO the fines are still far too low.

Couldn't agree more.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:18:44 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
This guy would have survived had he worn a seatbelt. Most crashes nowadays are survivable unless coming to a very sudden stop or rolling for a long distance.

When will people learn?

Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

Airbags are ment to be used in conjunction with seatbelts

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Nov 14, 2007 5:40:10 PM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5822, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Actually here in Germany the police recently observed a trend of a weaker saftey belt discipline - I just wonder what triggered this dangerous trend

I absolutely don't understand why people do such things. For me the first thing in a car is to fasten the seatbelt. Most of the time even before I start the engine. I don't even FEEL safe without the belt when driving.
I have absolutely no understanding for those who don't use the seatbelts. IMO the fines are still far too low.

Ditto!
I feel for his family and his friends. Why they have to push the powerful cars to their limits, when they don't even know how to handle them is beyond me.

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Nov 14, 2007 5:42:23 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Rossi said:
For me the first thing in a car is to fasten the seatbelt. Most of the time even before I start the engine.

That's what the original safety campaign suggested: "Klick -erst gurten, dann starten" (first fasten the seatbelt, then start the engine). Of course that was in the pre-historic seventies of the last century

My driving school teacher would have

if I'd have started the engine without fastening the seatbelt first

Maybe it's time for a new safety campaign, because people just feel too comfy in modern cars (more like on the sofa at home than steering a "dangerous" machine)

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Nov 14, 2007 5:42:42 PM

Gauss: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 5822, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 3, 2003; Reply to: Gauss

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

I have just looked at the crash photos (linked in the first post) and the last one really shows how strong the side impact must have been...not sure if the guy would have survived had he used the seatbelt...

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Nov 14, 2007 6:45:08 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
svtrader1 said:Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

You are confusing two different things, and more importantly you don't seem to realise that they both work together in order for airbags to be effective.

Airbags protect you from the initial impact in one direction, but they do nothing from keeping you from being tossed around inside the cabin back and fourth afterwards. In a serious collision the inertias rarely stop after the initial impact.

And one very important detail, the airbags are designed with seatbelts in mind and thus knowing what the movement of the pasenger is going to have and the timing. For example, there is no telling were the face of the passenger is going to be in a collision if he is not wearing a seatbelt which would limit and control that movement, and predict it as well in order to activate the airbag in the right place and the right time (why do you think kids cannnot use adult airbags). The body could fly upward (as its ofter the case) and the face could be hitting the anterior roof line instead of the airbag for example, snapping your neck.

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Nov 14, 2007 7:03:48 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

You are confusing two different things, and more importantly you don't seem to realise that they both work together in order for airbags to be effective.

Airbags protect you from the initial impact in one direction, but they do nothing from keeping you from being tossed around inside the cabin back and fourth afterwards. In a serious collision the inertias rarely stop after the initial impact.

And one very important detail, the airbags are designed with seatbelts in mind and thus knowing what the movement of the pasenger is going to have and the timing. For example, there is no telling were the face of the passenger is going to be in a collision if he is not wearing a seatbelt which would limit and control that movement, and predict it as well in order to activate the airbag in the right place and the right time (why do you think kids cannnot use adult airbags). The body could fly upward (as its ofter the case) and the face could be hitting the anterior roof line instead of the airbag for example, snapping your neck.

×2

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Nov 14, 2007 9:29:47 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Prob cheaper/safer for society that driver killed self w/o killing/injuring others....

Not clear that surviving accid w/severe disabilities is always preferred vs instant death....

Prob a new R8 off dealer lot may be equipped w/summer perf tires....if so, would be suboptimal/unsafe vs <45F temps/wet conds of Germany in Nov....

Darwinian selection often prevails....some guys have an inherent sense of perf/safety capabilities/risks of car being driven, as well as own driving skills and road/traffic/weather risks.....and drive w/ample margin of safety/error.....negative selection vs those who can't analyze and manage risks of driving any car creates safer roads for those who do drive responsibly.....

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Nov 14, 2007 10:21:25 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: WBH

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Very sad. Yes, he should have had his seatbelt on.

However, the crash may not have been his fault. And the seatbelts and airbags may not have been enough to mitigate the kinetic energy from the impact.

Remember when the Audi TT first came out and how many people died in it? Aerodynamic problems initially denied by Audi were later admitted to by them and then corrected. In the mean time drivers were being killed in Audi TT's. The R8 is a new model with limited fatal accident data.

It might be appropriate to wait for all forensic data and analysis before assigning complete blame to the deceased.

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Nov 14, 2007 10:30:43 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

News update: the 27 year old worked for the car dealer and he was on his way to deliver the R8 to the customer. He leaves behind two children.

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Nov 15, 2007 1:48:33 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Very sad. Yes, he should have had his seatbelt on.

However, the crash may not have been his fault. And the seatbelts and airbags may not have been enough to mitigate the kinetic energy from the impact.

Yes, somebody actually understands the big picture!

Remember Ben had his seatbelt on, airbags deployed and he was wearing a helmet in his CGT, yet ended ep dead.

Excessive speed kills no matter what.

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Nov 15, 2007 5:01:45 AM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: Papillon

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

I think we are all speculating, who knows what happened. Bottom line a life is lost regardless what dumb mistakes the driver made. I guess we all have to leave this life some how and as sad as it sounds not all of us live to be old and die of an old age

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Nov 16, 2007 12:55:51 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Very sad. Yes, he should have had his seatbelt on.

However, the crash may not have been his fault. And the seatbelts and airbags may not have been enough to mitigate the kinetic energy from the impact.

Yes, somebody actually understands the big picture!
Remember Ben had his seatbelt on, airbags deployed and he was wearing a helmet in his CGT, yet ended ep dead.

Excessive speed kills no matter what.

No, absolutely everybody agrees on that part, who wouldn't?

But you said to Crash: "Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts". Thats a different story altogether and what was obviously rebuted by other members, and not that seatblets and airbags can save you from ALL posible accidents.

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Nov 16, 2007 3:28:32 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Very sad. Yes, he should have had his seatbelt on.

However, the crash may not have been his fault. And the seatbelts and airbags may not have been enough to mitigate the kinetic energy from the impact.

Yes, somebody actually understands the big picture!
Remember Ben had his seatbelt on, airbags deployed and he was wearing a helmet in his CGT, yet ended ep dead.

Excessive speed kills no matter what.

No, absolutely everybody agrees on that part, who wouldn't?

But you said to Crash: "Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts". Thats a different story altogether and what was obviously rebuted by other members, and not that seatblets and airbags can save you from ALL posible accidents.

Go back and read his statement. He stated wearing a seat belt would've save the driver's life as if it were a scientific fact.

That is pure speculation and utter nonsense.

You have a knack for sidetracking yourself.

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Nov 18, 2007 3:00:58 AM

Paralizer: Co-Pilot; Loc: Bay Area, CA , United States; Posts: 291, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 25, 2005; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
This guy would have survived had he worn a seatbelt. Most crashes nowadays are survivable unless coming to a very sudden stop or rolling for a long distance.

When will people learn?

Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

Actually your statement is more the erroneous one. I've been working in emergency services for over 25 years and based on what I see in these pictures this appears to be a very survivable crash, if your wearing a seatbelt. The picture that is most significant is the final one that shows the side view of the drivers area. The drivers area is for the most part intact. The A and B pillars show minimal damage. The roof also maintained its integrity. The drivers seat remained attached to the vehicle and the steering wheel is intact. What can't be seen is the footwell. Based on the front pictures I would presume there might be some intrusion into that area. Damage in that area typically results in fractures to the long bones of the lower extremities. While serious, generally not fatal.

The drivers door of the vehicle is missing. That could be from the accident or from the rescue itself. With that in mind the most probable scenario is that the driver either "pinballed" within the vehicle or was ejected, either of which could be prevented by a seatbelt.

Bottom line is this, seatbelts are your absolute best defense in a vehicle accident. Airbags are a good supplement. But they are just that, a supplement. These statements do not come from speculation, but from direct observation having responded to thousands of accidents over the past 25 years. And yes I'm still a total gearhead who loves to jump in my 987S, buckle up, and go have some fun in the twisties or at the track.

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Nov 18, 2007 4:34:46 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Paralizer

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Quote:
Paralizer said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
This guy would have survived had he worn a seatbelt. Most crashes nowadays are survivable unless coming to a very sudden stop or rolling for a long distance.

When will people learn?

Nonsense and pure speculation on your part. Airbags do a much better job of protecting you from a frontal crash than seatbelts.

Excessive speed will kill you no matter what.

Actually your statement is more the erroneous one. I've been working in emergency services for over 25 years and based on what I see in these pictures this appears to be a very survivable crash, if your wearing a seatbelt. The picture that is most significant is the final one that shows the side view of the drivers area. The drivers area is for the most part intact. The A and B pillars show minimal damage. The roof also maintained its integrity. The drivers seat remained attached to the vehicle and the steering wheel is intact. What can't be seen is the footwell. Based on the front pictures I would presume there might be some intrusion into that area. Damage in that area typically results in fractures to the long bones of the lower extremities. While serious, generally not fatal.

The drivers door of the vehicle is missing. That could be from the accident or from the rescue itself. With that in mind the most probable scenario is that the driver either "pinballed" within the vehicle or was ejected, either of which could be prevented by a seatbelt.

Bottom line is this, seatbelts are your absolute best defense in a vehicle accident. Airbags are a good supplement. But they are just that, a supplement. These statements do not come from speculation, but from direct observation having responded to thousands of accidents over the past 25 years. And yes I'm still a total gearhead who loves to jump in my 987S, buckle up, and go have some fun in the twisties or at the track.

Take a look at the second picture. The hood has buckled and the bumper is completely missing. Now, tell me at no point in this accident was there a frontal collision.

The most likely scenario is the guy died upon impact due to excessive speed.

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Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

Re: Fatal accident with AUDI R8

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