Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs - Page1

Sep 2, 2005 8:07:22 PM

Monster: Junior; Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada; Posts: 107, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 15, 2003

Avoiding RMS cars

Hi all,
After waiting for all my life, I will finally be at a point to join the Porsche family in the next 6-12 months. I think I can comfortably afford a 3.4L 996, 3.6 will be a stretch. My question is "Is there a mileage after which we are quite sure RMS won't occur". I remember reading from some internet forum/magazine (forgot which one) that suggest to purchase 2nd hand 996 with at least 50K km because a RMS-infected engine should have shown the problem long before that. Can all knowledgable folks here comment on this. Thanks a lot in advance.

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Sep 2, 2005 8:50:28 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Monster

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

I had the RMS leak at +80,000Km so there is no milage at which you are off the hook. Also the RMS fix is tipically around 800$ so I would rather have that than any other issue that may appear with a high milage car, although there is nothing necesarily going to happen, but I would not expressly look for over 50k 996's just to try to avoid the RMS. You could also consider purchasing a used-car warranty (that covers seals) for some peace of mind and factor that into your budget to buy the car.

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Apr 17, 2006 2:15:24 AM

testdrv321: Junior; Loc: Long Island, NY; Posts: 86, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

I don't think you are going to find a car w/o a RMS problem. It is inherently a design issue which will/has effected every one.

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Apr 19, 2006 2:16:21 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Monster

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Monster, unless you have $20k set aside in your piggy bank, you might consider checking the service history and buying a Porsche extended warranty. Owning any car after the warranty expires is a risk.

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May 1, 2006 2:17:27 PM

juankimalo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Madrid Spain , Spain; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 7, 2004; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

In Pasion Porsche (best spanish forum),'Scouser' (Bernie Goodheart), told us there's a solution for the RMS leaks.
The following text is a copy/paste from him

There is a fix!

Yes incredible as it may seem it can be fixed.

If you have RMS problems DO NOT take to your OPC to fix as they will only use standard Porsche parts. Take it to an independent and ask them to order and fit a 996 GT3 Motorsport seal instead. Ask them to fit it in the crankshaft IN REVERSE!

I know this sounds hard to believe but it works. The GT3 Motorsport seal (not a Porsche standard part) is the same bore size as the 996/997 seal but has two protective flanges at the rear. If fitted in reverse the inner flange forces itself to flip backwards and touch the outer flange which is already forced onto the crank with a spring. This prevents any oil from possibly leaking even if the bore is out of tollerance.

This was done as an experiment on two cars and it works very well. Mine is next when it goes in for its service next month. But both cars had 4 RMS replacements and the motorsport seal fixed the problem. Both cars now running for almost a year after the seal was replaced and no oil leaks.

You should be aware that I have done a lot of research on the RMS problem. One thing is absolutely certain now, a faulty RMS cannot cause engine failure or have anything to do with it. A faulty IMS on the ither hand might indicate intermediate shaft problems which will probably leade to engine failure. However, even if the RMS in the 996 or Boxster actually fell out of the crank (extremely rare) it will not cause engine failure. All that will happen is that oil will leak into the bell housing (but not pour out, only slowly). However the leak will be worse than say a leaking RMS. It may be enough to cause clutch contamination. It is more likely that oil will drip onto your exhaust and cause smoking. This will cause alarm but it is not bad news.

So in summary, a leaking RMS is harmless but it is still not acceptable or desired. In most cases, if the replacement RMS is done correctly (and this is very rare) then it wont leak again.

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May 2, 2006 3:33:29 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: juankimalo

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Quote:
juankimalo said:
In Pasion Porsche (best spanish forum),'Scouser' (Bernie Goodheart), told us there's a solution for the RMS leaks.
The following text is a copy/paste from him

There is a fix!

Yes incredible as it may seem it can be fixed.

If you have RMS problems DO NOT take to your OPC to fix as they will only use standard Porsche parts. Take it to an independent and ask them to order and fit a 996 GT3 Motorsport seal instead. Ask them to fit it in the crankshaft IN REVERSE!

I know this sounds hard to believe but it works. The GT3 Motorsport seal (not a Porsche standard part) is the same bore size as the 996/997 seal but has two protective flanges at the rear. If fitted in reverse the inner flange forces itself to flip backwards and touch the outer flange which is already forced onto the crank with a spring. This prevents any oil from possibly leaking even if the bore is out of tollerance.

This was done as an experiment on two cars and it works very well. Mine is next when it goes in for its service next month. But both cars had 4 RMS replacements and the motorsport seal fixed the problem. Both cars now running for almost a year after the seal was replaced and no oil leaks.

You should be aware that I have done a lot of research on the RMS problem. One thing is absolutely certain now, a faulty RMS cannot cause engine failure or have anything to do with it. A faulty IMS on the ither hand might indicate intermediate shaft problems which will probably leade to engine failure. However, even if the RMS in the 996 or Boxster actually fell out of the crank (extremely rare) it will not cause engine failure. All that will happen is that oil will leak into the bell housing (but not pour out, only slowly). However the leak will be worse than say a leaking RMS. It may be enough to cause clutch contamination. It is more likely that oil will drip onto your exhaust and cause smoking. This will cause alarm but it is not bad news.

So in summary, a leaking RMS is harmless but it is still not acceptable or desired. In most cases, if the replacement RMS is done correctly (and this is very rare) then it wont leak again.

I contacted a Porsche Master Technician and he told me that this is a know fix, but that it is not as good as the latest generation factory seal (PTFE). The "GT3" reverse seal approach can work, but if it fails the results are much worse, because much more oil can leak out than when a normally installed seal fails.

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Jul 31, 2007 1:47:36 PM

armaknyc: Newbie; Loc: NY; Posts: 1, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 31, 2007; Reply to: 964C2

996 Engine Oil Bugs

Sorry to reignite an old RMS thread. In April, I bought a 2003 4S Coupe with 32,800 miles. Now 2,000 miles later, despite a clean pre-purchase inspection and a clean post-purchase 30,000 mile major service by Porsche, I have an undiagnosed oil consumption or leak problem (avg. about 1-qt/1,500 miles but highly variable).

Is it the feared RMS? Check out: Porsche Market Update, Boxster & 996, Bruce, Anderson, Excellence Magazine, Sept 2007, pp 117-121. Quoting, . . . this problem seems to affect between 50 and 100 percent of the cars. Had I known that, I would not have bought a 996.

Is it consumption? I recently learned that Porsche deems up to 1-qt/600 miles to be acceptable consumption. Shameful! Additionally, had I known that, I would not have purchased any Porsche.

I did buy an extended warranty that will hopefully cover the TBD fix. I'll let you know what I discover.

/uploads/370032-Excellence_PorscheMarketUpdate_Sept2007.pdf

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Jul 31, 2007 2:39:01 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: armaknyc

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

RMS is not such a big issue. I have 80'000km on my car, no sign of RMS yet. But I will have it changed anyway when I change the clutch. I am more concerned with engine blow-up. Because THIS is pricey.

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Jul 31, 2007 3:59:01 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: armaknyc

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

Your oil consumption is not abnormal...keep it topped up and enjoy your car.

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Aug 1, 2007 2:03:46 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: 964C2

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

RMS is not such a big issue and it has been blown out of proportion by the Internet. Previous 911 generations had far more serious (and expensive) engine warts.

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Aug 3, 2007 11:00:01 AM

percymon: Senior; Loc: Chester; Posts: 765, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 23, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

For information - i am friendly with the above mentioned 'Scouser' - he is now on his eigth RMS seal (yes nyou did read that right !). He now has the motorsport version fitted in reverse (only one week ago) so we will see how it performs. the last seal lasted about 12 months, so it might not have been the latestes KN derived seal.

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Sep 25, 2007 6:37:44 PM

cgn911: Newbie; Loc: USA, MA; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 25, 2007; Reply to: Monster

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Hi,

I am totally new to this forum and I just signed up to post this one post...(It may as well happen that I will stay in here and participate in future)

I just got myself a 911 (996, 2003) and the car runs great. I am just a bit conocerned about the oil consumption (1pt/1000miles) and so I read the internet. I found this 'RMS' topic here and it got me concerned a lot. So, what is RMS? How can I find out if my car is 'suffering' from it. I do have an extended warranty, but sometimes it is better to know more before I approach the dealer.

Thanks to you guys,
Andreas

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Sep 25, 2007 7:13:25 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: cgn911

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Does your car drip oil in your garage? if not, nothing to worry about, some engines use more oil.!

Welcome BTW ! :-)

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Sep 25, 2007 7:20:47 PM

cgn911: Newbie; Loc: USA, MA; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 25, 2007; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

No - my car is not leaking or even dripping. Thanks for taking that concern away from me!!!!

BTW, What is the abbreviation RMS standing for?

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Sep 25, 2007 7:59:25 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: cgn911

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Quote:
cgn911 said:
No - my car is not leaking or even dripping. Thanks for taking that concern away from me!!!!

BTW, What is the abbreviation RMS standing for?

Rear main seal. It happens when a poorly designed seal becomes worn out by a misaligned crankshaft. letting oil leak. they have been unable to fix this design flaw since the boxster first came out in 99'

for the most part it does not happen on the GT3/Turbo cars because the engine block is a different dry sump, but there have been a few reports here and there of the RMS failing on those as well. MUCH rarer though, superior engine design.

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Sep 26, 2007 3:40:46 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Another point to remember is that many different types of oil leaks have all been lumped together as "RMS" leaks by web poster, when in fact they could be from different sources on the engine.

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Oct 7, 2007 1:06:33 AM

connoisseur: Senior; Loc: Nebraska; Posts: 752, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2005; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Avoiding RMS cars

Percymon, if "Scouser" is now on his eighth RMS I would be highly suspicious that there is something else wrong. Has anyone checked to make sure that the seal bore centerline is concentric with the crankshaft centerline? If it is NOT he will be replacing seals from now to eternity no matter what design.

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Oct 15, 2007 5:23:14 AM

ignacio: Junior; Loc: annapolis,maryland,usa , United States; Posts: 132, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 30, 2002; Reply to: armaknyc

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

"Is it consumption? I recently learned that Porsche deems up to 1-qt/600 miles to be acceptable consumption. Shameful! Additionally, had I known that, I would not have purchased any Porsche"

wouldn't buy a porsche because it uses a quart of oil every 600 miles?

who cares!

911's still depreciate slower than any car except ferrari's. depreciation is where the REAL cost is.

besides you are driving a porshe not a lexus

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Oct 15, 2007 11:26:39 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: ignacio

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

That's a lot of engine oil to consume in just 600 miles. 1 US quart = 0.946 litre.

My car (a 997 C2S) has used 1.1 litres of engine oil in a total of 9754 miles since I took delivery of the car. That's only 0.1128ml per mile.

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Oct 15, 2007 12:18:51 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

Of course it depends on how you use your car - as per my own observation oil consumption goes up significantly when you do long Autobahn-trips at highspeed or when you track your car. To avoid misunderstandings: if you go back to "normal driving" after highspeed trips/trackdays oil consumption should go back to normal also.
FWIW: with my 987S used as a multi-purpose car (20% Autobahn/10% track/40% countryroads/30% city) oil consumption averages 1L per 10,000 km = appr. 1 US quart per 6,000 miles. 1 quart per just 600 miles seems way to much, unless your car is a full time track toy...

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Oct 15, 2007 8:34:26 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

Hum, 1L per 10'000km is on the low side. I had more on the boxster and 997s. I'd say 1L / 2-3000km.
Almost no highyway, only city in the week, mountain roads on week-ends.

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Oct 16, 2007 7:16:07 AM

pawelmontana: Junior; Loc: Europe; Posts: 122, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 19, 2007; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

Quote:
Jeannot said:
Hum, 1L per 10'000km is on the low side. I had more on the boxster and 997s. I'd say 1L / 2-3000km.
Almost no highyway, only city in the week, mountain roads on week-ends.

This is exactly the oil consumption pattern that I am observing. Generally, 1000km of high speed driving within two days makes my 997S oil indicator go down one bar.

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Oct 16, 2007 9:34:43 AM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

Quote:
Jeannot said:
Hum, 1L per 10'000km is on the low side. I had more on the boxster and 997s. I'd say 1L / 2-3000km.

Yes my oil consumption is on the low side. I see your average only when I drive the car very hard (Autobahn trips of hundreds of km with more or less full throttle all the time or track). Though I'm very anal about warming up AND cooling down the engine pre/after spirited driving - maybe this helps. Also I think the range of "normal" oil consumption is quite broad. If I recall correctly the manual defines "normal" from 1 L/10 tkm up to 10 L/10 tkm, though (not being an engineer/tech expert) my gutt feeling tells me that 10 L/10 tkm should be way too much

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Oct 21, 2007 5:55:40 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: 996 Engine Oil Bugs

My 2000 C4 now for sale, never consumed any oil, and never leaked oil.

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