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    Jun 24, 2004 11:55:24 PM

    Barrett
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    Question/Concern about 997's handling

    I am still somewhat in the dark about the handling of the new 997. Seeing as how the 997 models are not on showroom floors yet, the truest test--getting behind the wheel and taking a spin myself--is unavailable. But as I understand it, the variable-ratio steering is less connected when driving straight, and it gets more direct and responsive as you pass the 30-degree angle on the steering wheel.

    In the Autocar drive review, the writer seemed to think that the new variable-ratio steering was the weakest (or at least the most questionable) aspect of the 997. Although he said he eventually got used to it by the third day, it seems that the steering was the only part of the car that he didn't have unqualified praise for. He even said that traditional 911 lovers may miss the direct feel that the 911 has historically been known for.

    To be honest, the steering is the only thing that makes me wary of the 997 (in addition to the interior styling). I have a 996 C4S on order (my second C4S), and the main obstacle to me just embracing the 997 and placing an order for that car instead is the handling. I know BMW has variable-ratio steering, but I don't know how most people feel about it. Seeing as how handling is such an important part of a Porsche, does anyone think that Porsche made a big mistake in moving away from traditional, linear steering?

    Jun 25, 2004 2:23:16 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Barrett said:does anyone think that Porsche made a big mistake in moving away from traditional, linear steering?



    Yes

    Jun 25, 2004 2:45:54 AM

    WBH
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    Barrett said:does anyone think that Porsche made a big mistake in moving away from traditional, linear steering?



    Yes



    I totally agree. P may have screwed up one of their traditional strengths w/this change....hopefully, they move back to a classic P steering rack for 997TTS and 997GT3. In fact, this suspect steering is a major reason I opted to order 996TTS, rather than 997S. This new steering rack may be a great example of where car w/spectacular N-ring time just isn't as pleasurable to drive as one w/a similar (or even slower) ring time.

    Jun 25, 2004 6:35:30 AM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Thats something we can only know till we try the 997 ourselves, the steering feel is one of my posible worries about the 997. However Porsche knows the importance of steering feedback on thier cars, so I can't believe that they would compromise that for no reason. We will see...

    Jun 25, 2004 3:01:21 PM

    MKW
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    For decades , Porsche engineers resisted marketing's pressure to have a height ( up/down) adjustable steering column ( not telescoping in/out which it had ) , saying it reduced steering feel. They even smugly noted Ferrari eventually added that feature . Lo and behold , the 997 has it . Chalk another one up for marketing !

    Jun 25, 2004 9:49:13 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Seeing as how handling is such an important part of a Porsche, does anyone think that Porsche made a big mistake in moving away from traditional, linear steering?




    No. The new steering on the 997 is a great achievement, it is different from the BMW system and it works great.
    Apparently some drivers prefer to have a nervous steering feel when driving straight, especially those drivers who were (or are still) used to the older 911 models.
    The steering feels smooth and disconnected when driving on straights but as soon as you turn the wheel, you get a kart-like feeling which is impressive.
    Have you ever driven a 964 Turbo S at top speed? Well, you might get an idea of what I mean about a nervous steering.
    Some people even had complaints about the 996 C2 at top speed and the 997 steering is a huge improvement over the 996.

    Or to try to explain it with numbers: a Porsche testdriver recently told me that he achieved with the 997 S (20 mm suspension/LSD) the SAME lap time as with the 996 Turbo (420 HP version) on the Nordschleife.
    The new steering plays a huge role in handling improvement.

    BTW: I read several car magazines where journalists testdrove the 997 and NONE said something bad about the steering. As I said before, maybe the Autocar writer was used to older Porsches and some people really like that nervous drive feel, calling it "challenging". Well, if I want to have a challenge, I drive a Trabant.

    Jun 26, 2004 3:10:49 AM

    WBH
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Seeing as how handling is such an important part of a Porsche, does anyone think that Porsche made a big mistake in moving away from traditional, linear steering?




    No. The new steering on the 997 is a great achievement, it is different from the BMW system and it works great.
    Apparently some drivers prefer to have a nervous steering feel when driving straight, especially those drivers who were (or are still) used to the older 911 models.
    The steering feels smooth and disconnected when driving on straights but as soon as you turn the wheel, you get a kart-like feeling which is impressive.
    Have you ever driven a 964 Turbo S at top speed? Well, you might get an idea of what I mean about a nervous steering.
    Some people even had complaints about the 996 C2 at top speed and the 997 steering is a huge improvement over the 996.

    Or to try to explain it with numbers: a Porsche testdriver recently told me that he achieved with the 997 S (20 mm suspension/LSD) the SAME lap time as with the 996 Turbo (420 HP version) on the Nordschleife.
    The new steering plays a huge role in handling improvement.

    BTW: I read several car magazines where journalists testdrove the 997 and NONE said something bad about the steering. As I said before, maybe the Autocar writer was used to older Porsches and some people really like that nervous drive feel, calling it "challenging". Well, if I want to have a challenge, I drive a Trabant.



    RC, I'm still puzzled. Sounds like this new steering is great for when the wife/girlfriend wants to street-park the 997S and possibly at 150MPH+ where a very precise steering can be nerve-wracking during that inopportune sneeze, etc. (on top of all the other risks of 150MPH+ running). But for those of us repressed non-Germans (BTW, I greatly envy the autobahn's logical approach to speed) who are legally forced to largely enjoy our P's at sub-150MPH, does this steering provide a sub-optimal luxury car steering feel near-center (up to 30 deg on either side of center)? Could P not have achieved these N-ring times for 997S with a traditional steering rack? It's curious to me that P didn't saddle the flagship CGT with this wondrous variable-ratio steering. Given my low regard for anything an inherently conflicted auto journalist would write (essentially cheap shills for any major auto co.), please enlighten us on whether this steering was really driven by marketing or engineering at P. Thanks, RC....always appreciate your candid insights.

    Jun 26, 2004 9:21:06 AM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    VKSF,

    The answer to your quetion will come when the 997GT3/997RS is released, I'm keeping a close eye to see if it has this steering or the traditional one, that will tell us which is better performance wise. If the GT3/RS doen't have it, then that will be pretty signicant.

    Jun 26, 2004 5:59:05 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    VKSF,

    The answer to your quetion will come when the 997GT3/997RS is released, I'm keeping a close eye to see if it has this steering or the traditional one, that will tell us which is better performance wise. If the GT3/RS doen't have it, then that will be pretty signicant.



    Right...and maybe not. The 997 S is not intended for the same customers who would buy a 997 GT3.
    And the Carrera GT is a completely different story, they don't need to make it fool-proof, even if they did it anyway to a certain extent..
    Both, the GT3 and the CGT allowed Porsche to make certain compromises, the 997/997 S is different, it has to be almost perfect, very sporty but comfortable too.
    Different audience, different cars.

    Jun 26, 2004 6:41:57 PM

    Barrett
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Again, the caveat to this entire discussion must be that we have to wait for the car to show up at dealers and get behind the wheel ourselves.

    However, within the realm of our abstract discussion, I have to say that nothing I have read about the 997 makes me feel excited about the new variable-ratio steering.

    Even listening to what RC (whose website is the best source for Porsche news on the internet, bar none) says, I'm still worried. For example, RC, you say that the GT3 and the Carrera GT allowed Porsche to make certain compromises, but I think this all depends on how we define compromise. Sure, the GT3 is not a soft, comfortable car, but to me that means that it *doesn't* compromise. It doesn't meet performance-vs.-comfort in the middle; instead, it heavily favors performance. Same thing for the GT.

    Now, when it comes to the 997, I think *that's* where the compromises are; like you say, it has to be both sporty and comfortable. It has to be exactly in the middle.

    I'm worried about this kind of approach. Ferry Porsche once said that, in building a Porsche, he was not interested in making it something for everybody, but rather it was to be everything to someone.

    Isn't softer steering inherently inconsistent with this philosophy? (I know a lot of other things, like cupholders, airbags, etc. are inconsistent as well, but I just want to limit the discussion to steering/handling.)

    I really, really want to like the 997 S. In fact, I've put myself on the waiting list for one (in addition to having ordered an '05 996 C4S) to hedge my bet, but I wouldn't be surprised if I canceled my 997 order after I saw/drove one in person in August and took delivery on the C4S instead.

    Jun 26, 2004 6:50:40 PM

    RCA
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    How should I explain? The new variable steering is not softer or less direct, it is just feeling different around the middle point. I think most people won't even feel a difference, with or without the variable steering. And the transition from an indirect setup to a more direct one happens very smoothly.
    I don't know why people start to worry about the things which are actually an improvement? Did you read any negative article about the new steering or is your concern just based on this discussion? Which brings me back to "drive on, then make your decision".

    Jun 26, 2004 8:22:25 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    RC said:.
    I don't know why people start to worry about the things which are actually an improvement?



    I think its just that since something new/unknow is introduced, they/we are just worried it was introduced for an improvement in "confort", which most of the times means a compromise in sport performance. Some people will prefer that extra confort in the steering, some (like I) would only like it if it has no draw back in the feel/feedback/precision, thats all. But like you said, if it works well, everybody will stop worrying when they try it. We all thought PSM was going to ruin the sportiveness of the 911 like it does on other brands, but Porsche pulled through made it just perfect. Maybe this is the same, but until people try it, they will still have their worries since its something new, its only logical.

    Jun 26, 2004 8:57:10 PM

    RCA
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Carlos, don't remind me of the PSM. Before people actually drove it, most of them thought it is as intrusive as the Mercedes ESP. We had a lot of argueing going on by that time when Porsche introduced PSM.
    The new PSM, especially with the Chrono Package Plus, seems to be a huge improvement as somebody who drove the 997 on the track told me. It is even so good, that people who were "saved" by the bell when doing nasty things, wouldn't escape without bruises this time. Good for real track addicts, bad for unexperienced drivers who think they're faster if they turn off PSM.

    BTW: I saw the 997 S and a 996 C4S(!) from the rear, one parked next to each other. Holy cow, the 997 S looks much meaner and the C4S looks somehow...old, difficult to explain.
    I'm afraid some people who ordered a C4S because they didn't want to wait for the 997 S, might get an unpleasant surprise when the see the car. Especially dark colors seem to make the 997 S look pretty wide in the rear. And the greater the distance, the wider the rear of the 997 S seems to look alike.
    I really can't imagine how the 997 Turbo would look wider...well, I actually can but you get my point.

    Jun 26, 2004 11:25:53 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    RC said:
    BTW: I saw the 997 S and a 996 C4S(!) from the rear, one parked next to each other. Holy cow, the 997 S looks much meaner and the C4S looks somehow...old, difficult to explain.



    You lucky b*&#@*#! I'm still waiting to see a 997 any which way in real life

    vs the C4S, that is something you can only see when you see them next to each other in real life like that I guess, but I think the engine cover and the rear lights contribute to that more agressive look, no?

    Jun 27, 2004 12:00:00 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    RC said:
    How should I explain? The new variable steering is not softer or less direct, it is just feeling different around the middle point. I think most people won't even feel a difference, with or without the variable steering.



    I think there is a basic misunderstanding here, leading to a lot of redundant speculation.

    The view seems to be that Porsche has downgraded steering feel around the center point when introducing the variable-ratio rack, thus introducing a "sloppy" feel when driving straight ahead at speed, and kept the same ratio when rack is off-center.

    My understanding is that it's the other way around. The ratio at center is much as it was before, so straight line feel and fidelity will also be as before. The rack/pinion ratio has been quickened beyond about 30 degrees of applied lock, tightening up the steering in the twisties.

    Without having tried it yet, this sounds to me like a boost for sporty drivers, and was not intended as a sop to the comfort-freaks to reduce the "sneeze-factor".

    I believe this discussion all started because journalist Peter Robinson commented on having to get used to the steering in one of the first, and few, real test drive reports on the 997. PR has been using Porsche sportscars as daily drivers for several years, so his having to "accustom" himself to a different set-up does not necessarily mean that it is less good. I do not have his article to hand to check back exactly what he wrote.

    The BMW 6 steering is different, in as much as the amount of power asistance is also constantly varied, depending on driving conditions as perceived by an electronic control unit. This could result in the "weight" of the steering varying in a way which the driver would not necessarily want, or intuitively understand, so it could feel "wierd".
    Not everything which is technically feasible is necessarily beneficial or desirable.

    Jun 27, 2004 1:43:41 PM

    GM AustinM
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    If you will allow me the indiscretion of bringing sport trucks into this discussion, my Cayenne has Porsche's Servotronic power steering while my wife has the standard steering on her X-5. The Servotronic has speed sensitive variable boost where there is more boost at low speeds. At low speeds there is a noticeable difference between the two but above 30 mph they seem the same to me. My wife does not drive the Cayenne often but does prefer the X-5 steering, commenting that it feels tighter. I believe both have the variable ratio feature as standard.

    I actually regret getting the Servotronic. I don't think it has any effect on handling but I also don't think the additional boost at low speeds is necessary. I notice the current X-5's have made the variable-boost steering standard.

    Jun 28, 2004 8:17:51 AM

    temm
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Looks like The Car Connection likes the new steering:

    "On the road, the 911 is appreciably better than its predecessor, a car that was already outstanding. The power is instantly available, and acceleration from a standstill is truly eye-opening. In the case of the S, the power is a major element in the car's appeal. Thanks to the fact that Porsche held its press preview close to one of the remaining speed-limit free sections of the German autobahn, it was possible to run the cars at speeds far in excess of those that are legal in most other countries of the world. The S accelerated smoothly to the upper limits of the speed range, and 145 mph was a realistic cruising speed, at which one could appreciate the variable-ratio steering. In a straight line the wheel held the car perfectly, without the feeling so often met at very high speeds of the need to make constant small corrections to the car's line. One aspect of the car that the engineers have studied closely is that of sound (rather than noise). The S has a powerful, muscular sound to it, which is particularly noticeable when it overtakes with the power on."

    Jun 28, 2004 10:40:44 AM

    J.Seven
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:

    I saw the 997 S and a 996 C4S(!) from the rear, one parked next to each other. Holy cow, the 997 S looks much meaner and the C4S looks somehow...old, difficult to explain.




    So where's the pic RC

    J.Seven

    Jun 28, 2004 11:38:49 AM

    RCA
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    So where's the pic RC

    J.Seven



    I my brain. Non-disclosure agreement, no pictures allowed with one exception and I'll get back to it as soon as possible.

    Jun 28, 2004 5:55:45 PM

    Barrett
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    It's my understanding that, at its most direct (i.e, more than 30-degrees off center), the steering ratio on the 997 is 1:13,8 or something like that. Does anybody know the number for the 996?

    In other words, is the 997, at its best steering ratio, better than the 996 at its best (and only) steering ratio?

    Jun 28, 2004 7:08:16 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Does anybody know the number for the 996?

    In other words, is the 997, at its best steering ratio, better than the 996 at its best (and only) steering ratio?



    Ratio for 996 was 16.9 : 1.

    Jun 28, 2004 7:27:33 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Does anybody know the number for the 996?

    In other words, is the 997, at its best steering ratio, better than the 996 at its best (and only) steering ratio?



    Ratio for 996 was 16.9 : 1.



    Pardon my ignorance, but am I interpreting this correctly....per ratios, 996 has tighter steering rack than 997 (even at 997's most precise zone)? How perceptible would this difference in steering ratios be? Is the quoted 996 ratio applicable to all 996s...or is there a difference among TT and C2 and GT3? Does anyone know steering ratios of 360 or Gallardo so we can put this all in some perspective? I realize that steering ratios can mislead vs actual steering feel, but, until we can drive actual 997, let's continue to speculate

    Jun 28, 2004 8:00:25 PM

    fritz
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Pardon my ignorance, but am I interpreting this correctly....per ratios, 996 has tighter steering rack than 997 (even at 997's most precise zone)? How perceptible would this difference in steering ratios be? Is the quoted 996 ratio applicable to all 996s...or is there a difference among TT and C2 and GT3? Does anyone know steering ratios of 360 or Gallardo so we can put this all in some perspective? I realize that steering ratios can mislead vs actual steering feel, but, until we can drive actual 997, let's continue to speculate



    997's 13.8 : 1 ratio at over 30* steering lock is "tighter" than 996's 16.9 :1.

    As far as I am aware, all 996 variants and model years had the same steering ratio. Certainly all MY 04 cars were the same.

    Just comparing ratios alone between different marques will tell you nothing about how communicative the steering is, because so many other factors play a role.

    Jun 28, 2004 8:25:57 PM

    WBH
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Fritz, thanks for clarifying. Sounds like we'll have to drive 997S to draw conclusions on the new steering.

    Jun 28, 2004 9:24:37 PM

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    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Does anybody know the number for the 996?




    Steering Specifications:

    996 GT3 -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 turns lock-to-lock (Road&Track)
    996 GT2 -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Targa--16.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Cab -- 19.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Turbo -- 16.9:1 and 3.0
    996 Turbo Cab -- ?
    Boxster S -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 (MotorTrend)
    CGT -- 15.7:1 and 2.6 (R&T)
    15.1:1 and 2.6 (Car and Driver)
    Enzo -- Unknown and 2.4 (R&T)
    360 Spider -- Unknown and 2.7 (R&T)
    Evo VIII -- 13.0 and 2.1
    Elise 111R -- n/a

    Note: Only the Elise features manual, non-assisted steering.

    Jun 28, 2004 9:29:36 PM

    fritz
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Does anybody know the number for the 996?




    Steering Specifications:

    996 GT3 -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 turns lock-to-lock (Road&Track)
    996 GT2 -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Targa--16.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Cab -- 19.9:1 and 3.0 (R&T)
    996 Turbo -- 16.9:1 and 3.0
    996 Turbo Cab -- ?
    Boxster S -- 16.9:1 and 3.0 (MotorTrend)
    CGT -- 15.7:1 and 2.6 (R&T)
    15.1:1 and 2.6 (Car and Driver)
    Enzo -- Unknown and 2.4 (R&T)
    360 Spider -- Unknown and 2.7 (R&T)
    Evo VIII -- 13.0 and 2.1
    Elise 111R -- n/a

    Note: Only the Elise features manual, non-assisted steering.



    Maverick, unless it was just your typo, I'm guessing the 19.9 : 1 given for the 996 Cab in R&T was a misprint.

    No reason why a cab would need steering that much "slower" than all other versions, and the Boxster is also a cab anyway!

    Jun 29, 2004 5:59:50 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Maverick, unless it was just your typo, I'm guessing the 19.9 : 1 given for the 996 Cab in R&T was a misprint.

    No reason why a cab would need steering that much "slower" than all other versions, and the Boxster is also a cab anyway!



    Fritz,
    It was not my typo, so it is most probably a misprint. In the past two months, I've realized and am angered by the fact that Road and Track has made and continues to make glaring errors in their specifications page . Their quality control on the specs. page is deplorable for those of us, nutcases, who require exact, error-free specifications on a car for comparision purposes. Since it is the only magazine which bothers to give an entire specs. page for every road-test, I have no choice but to grudingly accept.

    Jun 29, 2004 6:21:54 PM

    Barrett
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    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Here is CanadianDriver.com's take after trying out the new 997's variable-ratio steering:

    "Move up to the Carrera S and you now get variable-ratio steering, which is really quick at low speeds and gets progressively slower for more stability at higher velocities. I didn't like a similar system fitted to a BMW 5-series I drove earlier this year, and this active steering strikes me as engineering for engineering's sake. Nobody's ever complained (at least, not that I know of) of having to occasionally go hand-over-hand in a tight hairpin, and the steering's variable-ness robs it of some of that precision and feel that are so important to the 911's identity. Thankfully, the rest of the package, from the superbly flexible and characterful flat-six engines to the slick six-speed shifters and simply amazing cornering grip and traction under full power, remain."

    I'm curious as to what other reviews will say. I figure some will love it, some will be indifferent to it, and some will prefer the older, constant ratio steering.

    To read the CanadianDriver.com review in its entirety (with original pics), see:

    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/05_911.htm

    Jun 29, 2004 7:22:23 PM

    Trundle_GT3
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    Trundle_GT3
    Loc: CA, USA
    Posts: 1016, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 30, 2003
    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    996 Steering Ratio 16.9:1
    996 Steering Lock to Lock 2.98

    997 Steering Ratio: 17.1: 1 (center position) up to 13.8: 1 (variable)
    997 Steering Lock to Lock 2.62

    Jun 29, 2004 7:54:05 PM

    fritz
    Rennteam VIP
    fritz
    Loc: BaWü , Germany
    Posts: 10248, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 23, 2003
    Reply to: Barrett

    Re: Question/Concern about 997's handling

    Quote:
    Barrett said:
    Here is CanadianDriver.com's take after trying out the new 997's variable-ratio steering:

    "Move up to the Carrera S and you now get variable-ratio steering, which is really quick at low speeds and gets progressively slower for more stability at higher velocities. I didn't like a similar system fitted to a BMW 5-series I drove earlier this year, and this active steering strikes me as engineering for engineering's sake."



    I don't know what this guy is talking about, and suspect he doesn't either.

    I'm referring to the fact that the variable ratio feature of the 997's steering is related to the degree of steering lock applied, and not dependant on road speed, as was implied in the above quotation.

    Both standard 997 Carrera and Carrera S have the same variable ratio steering system.

    When he writes that he did not like "a similar system fitted to a BMW 5" but does not comment further on the 997 system, does it mean that he has not really driven the 997?
     
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