Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Do you feel cheated??? - Page3

Oct 9, 2007 6:50:17 PM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

guys, you all go back to financials, and survival... a car CAN be exclusive, have a limited production number, and offer quality manufacturing... all that is needed is a strong "parent" company, not a full line of cars... I give you Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, and Aston Martin, all great names with as much heritage as Porsche, and with cars such as the Conti. GT, Gallardo, F430, and AMV8 priced not so far off the 997TT, and SOOOOOOOOO MUCH MORE EXCLUSIVE!

How would you feel if Porsche introduced a hot hatch-back and a mini Cayenne?

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Oct 9, 2007 6:50:57 PM

SVNSVN: Rennteam Pro; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 2994, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
MMD said:
What's crazy? This may settle the argument.

The Carrera GT was "universally" hailed as a _BARGAIN_. Instead of being us$450K (?) "they" say it should have been around a million usd.

How can a supercar (by definition) be priced so low if Porsche is out to cheat their customers?

Good point!

I don't feel cheated a bit- very,very happy with my P-car and P-truck.

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Oct 9, 2007 6:59:45 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Would your examples be "less exclusive" if they were called the Audi Gallardo, or the Fiat F430. or the BMW Continental GT??

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Oct 9, 2007 7:15:35 PM

SrfCity: Expert; Loc: Orange County, CA; Posts: 1339, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Do you feel cheated???

BTW, exclusivity brings BS. Look at what's required with Ferrari? They're now making you lease a new car through them and they'll be putting a lien on it for a year.(430S for sure) This not at MSRP but possibly at market price(probably at the dealer's discretion) which on the 430S will be probably $150K over sticker. You're stuck having to let the dealer sell the car or you're out of the loop. 3 year warranty instead of 4. Ferrari will be doubling production with the introduction of the California GT. 2+ year waiting list. Is it really worth all that??

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Oct 9, 2007 8:16:39 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: SVNSVN

Re: Do you feel cheated???

I haven't studied BMW's latest offerings and price points (since the Bangle-BS) but THEY had a BMW for every price range.

From first-real-job-after-college buyer all the way up to the established buyer who wants to spend us$100K+ on a BMW.

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Oct 10, 2007 12:20:33 AM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

So what if Porsche makes an SUV! Isn't the Cayenne Turbo allegedly the best SUV on the planet? So what if they make entry level cars like the Boxster and the Cayman if they are, allegedly, the best cars on the planet in their class. Porsche may have more car varieties on offer now, but each of them seem to be the best in their respective niches, don't they? That's where pride of ownership should reside. I wouldn't want to own a new 911 if it was a piece of scrap metal with tyres no matter what the price or if it was the only car made by the company. I love the 911 because it is the best car in its class all around. Just the 911 basic design is amazing in that it has been evolving continuously and now we have the outstanding 997 GT2! What car under $200k and with the level of engineering and precision it has can surpass the new GT2? It's a question that has no answer.

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Oct 10, 2007 12:58:59 AM

GRN2RSMO: Junior; Loc: NC, USA , United States; Posts: 114, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 21, 2006; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: Do you feel cheated???

No not at all. I was able to order my car with paint to sample and preferred options. I believe adding a sports sedan would be a natural extension considering the market demand they have seen with the Cayenne. Even Lambo produced an SUV.

Whether a company should sacrifice growth and ignore market demand is another discussion. Do you feel they should only produce a 911 in limited numbers and charge you even more?

Lastly, in the last 10 years more wealth has been created producing a larger population with more discretinary income. If you ran a business would you increase production to meet that demand. Ferrari has more demand currently but is increasing production numbers yearly and is also adding new models i.e. the dino.

If I bought the cayman I might have buyers remorse only because convertibles usually cost more and porsche is charging an extra $5000 for a hard top.

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Oct 10, 2007 1:07:45 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
a car CAN be exclusive, have a limited production number, and offer quality manufacturing... all that is needed is a strong "parent" company, not a full line of cars

In business school you call that a charity or non-for-profit organization.

If you think Porsche's are exclusive then you're way off base. They never have been, nor will they ever be. That's a very naive point of view to hold.

Let's not forget the earliest Porsche's extensively used VW mechanicals. The 924 used Audi mechanicals, and now the Cayenne uses VW mechanicals again. That never has been a way to exclusivity.

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Oct 10, 2007 7:31:53 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
Le Chef said:

Let's not forget the earliest Porsche's extensively used VW mechanicals. The 924 used Audi mechanicals, and now the Cayenne uses VW mechanicals again. That never has been a way to exclusivity.

Good point.

VW makes quality cars; good "German" quality for the price.

If a "comparable" Porsche is _double_ the cost of a VW, that doesn't mean the "quality" is doubled.

Since quality probably isn't doubled, then what are we paying all that extra money for? I think a portion of it has to do with the nebulous "exclusivity" factor.

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Oct 10, 2007 9:17:33 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:
I think a portion of it has to do with the nebulous "exclusivity" factor.:an

I guess it depends on whether you think that after 100,000 sold that the 997 is still exclusive...

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Oct 10, 2007 9:56:22 PM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:
I think a portion of it has to do with the nebulous "exclusivity" factor.:an

I guess it depends on whether you think that after 100,000 sold that the 997 is still exclusive...

well, let me tell you one thing, my 2006 997 carrera C2S cab. has surely cost me as much as some of the more exclusive cars, and now after 5,600 kms I can't even get 75% of my purchase price (6% discount over sticker), typical "exclusive" car depreciation behavior, except that porsche just hit the 100,000th 997... If i'm going to pay so much, and take such a hit on the re-sale (mint condition, with pampered miles), I might as well own an Aston! I have friends who have put similar miles on their ferraris and lambos, and receiving sticker price offers on their used cars, with others receiving premiums on their pre-delivery deposits!

Imagine that! driving a less common exotic, and selling it back within a year with minimal loss, if any!

WELL NEVER HAPPEN WITH OWNING A PORSCHE

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Oct 10, 2007 11:27:31 PM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Buy one of the air cooled examples and your depreciation hit will not be as large, depending on the miles you put from the time of purchase. Ferraris sell for a premium over MSRP but only to an extent. I don't believe a 2 year old F430, if you put 30k miles on it, will sell for a premium.

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Oct 11, 2007 12:46:21 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: Do you feel cheated???

How would this make us feel

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Oct 11, 2007 12:49:57 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Do you feel cheated???

This would be better

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Oct 11, 2007 1:12:10 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: rhino

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
rhino said:
How would this make us feel

WOW! THAT REALLY screws up the CGT mystique for me.

REALLY messes it up. AWFUL! Kinda like a CGT had a disgusting one nighter with a minivan and that is the hideous result.

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Oct 11, 2007 2:44:01 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
Marwan Arakji said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:
I think a portion of it has to do with the nebulous "exclusivity" factor.:an

I guess it depends on whether you think that after 100,000 sold that the 997 is still exclusive...

well, let me tell you one thing, my 2006 997 carrera C2S cab. has surely cost me as much as some of the more exclusive cars, and now after 5,600 kms I can't even get 75% of my purchase price (6% discount over sticker), typical "exclusive" car depreciation behavior, except that porsche just hit the 100,000th 997... If i'm going to pay so much, and take such a hit on the re-sale (mint condition, with pampered miles), I might as well own an Aston! I have friends who have put similar miles on their ferraris and lambos, and receiving sticker price offers on their used cars, with others receiving premiums on their pre-delivery deposits!

Imagine that! driving a less common exotic, and selling it back within a year with minimal loss, if any!

WELL NEVER HAPPEN WITH OWNING A PORSCHE

I don't know which sand dune you've had your head buried in but Porsche (with the exception of a couple of models) has never been exclusive. If you think it's supposed to keep its value like an exotic you're delusional. If you want rare and exotic then you have to pay rare and exotic prices for cars tha are built in the '00's not the '00,000's.

Try Bristol, or Pagani if you want exclusivity.

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Oct 11, 2007 10:51:41 AM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Do you feel cheated???

sand dune!!! no comment

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Oct 11, 2007 2:43:39 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

The "sand dune" comment is not meant to be a disrespectful about the Middle East or Lebanon, or Beirut in particular. So apologies if that's they way it came across - that was most certainly not my intention.

I do think that Porsche and exclusivity don't really go together and frankly that's part of their appeal.

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Oct 11, 2007 3:10:14 PM

WR: Senior; Loc: Taipei , Taiwan; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 26, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Do you feel cheated???

+1 that agree in Porsche is getting less exclusive with time

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Oct 11, 2007 3:45:44 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: WR

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
WR said:
+1 that agree in Porsche is getting less exclusive with time

I dunno. LOTS of people _still_ can't afford to own them. They cost alot to buy, insure, and maintain.

Remember this ltttle aphorism about _maintenance_ costs?

BMW: very expensive
Porsche: extremely expensive
Ferrari: astronomically expensive

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Oct 11, 2007 3:54:38 PM

TheOldMan: Co-Pilot; Loc: Montreal, Canada; Posts: 214, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2004; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Cheated, no way...

I purchased a great car from a company that provides exceptional customer service and a great product. The car has met all my expectations and then some.

Is the Porsche an exclusive car, no. In any major metropolitan area you will see lots of Porsche's. New ones and old ones. Does this matter, not for me it doesn't. The fact that it is not exclusive means that there is a service network of dealers and repair shops everywhere.

The fact that Porsche makes money is a good thing. I rather have the company make lots of money than be losing money. They make this money by offering a product that people want to buy, at a price that the company wants to charge. So what is the problem with this? IMO nothing.

Some of the Porsche products are exotic in my opinion, such as the CGT. Most aren't, but is that really a bad thing? When I talk to my friends that have Lambo's and F cars, they may have something exclusive, maybe even exotic, but do they really have someting of extraordianary value. Not sure.

The cars are nice to look at, even fun to take out once in a while. But do they actually drive these exotic/exclusive machines and enjoy them, not the people I know. Putting real driving miles on exclusive/exotic cars is expensive, not to mention risky if driving outside the major cities. When something goes wrong, there are not a lot of service centers to fix the problems.

Porsche, as a company, has carved out a nice position in the car market. They make sports cars and high end SUV's. They have managed their brands as well as any company in the car market. I would characterize the company as more of a luxury car manufacturer specializing in sporty car than a sports car company. But they have been doing this for as long as I can remember, but now they are doing it better than ever.

IMO, Porsche has the best lineup of cars/trucks in their history. I cannot remember a better lineup, and my recolections goes back to the late sixties.

I own and drive a Porsche because I like entire ownership experience. From the sales process through to service. The entire experience is first class; better than MB, BMW or any other car manufacturer that I have dealt with. The 911 may be considered antiquated by many people, but it offers a great driving experience that few other sports cars can match. I look forward to seeing porsche offer more diverse products, because they have earned my respect and I will show it by purchasing other products.

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Oct 11, 2007 4:43:33 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
WR said:
+1 that agree in Porsche is getting less exclusive with time

I dunno. LOTS of people _still_ can't afford to own them. They cost alot to buy, insure, and maintain.

Remember this ltttle aphorism about _maintenance_ costs?

BMW: very expensive
Porsche: extremely expensive
Ferrari: astronomically expensive

That is an important point. The price point buys you a certain level of exclusivity. Of course, that's all relative. If you hang in circles where all your friends have private jets, and that exclusivity is important to you, I agree that Porsche might not be what you have in mind. On the otherhand, if you collect tolls on a highway, you're likely to have the only 911 in your neighborhood.

This "exclusivity" thing always irritates me. I really couldn't care less if my Porsche is considered exclusive or a status symbol. I would drive it if it was $20,000 simply because I love it. I also consider myself fortunate to be able to afford it.

As long as Porsche keeps making great cars (and that's the key), I and others will keep buying them, and say to hell with poseurs who are interested in status and exclusivity and who might feel "cheated" because other people can also enjoy products of the same brand.

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Oct 11, 2007 5:03:39 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
WR said:
+1 that agree in Porsche is getting less exclusive with time

I dunno. LOTS of people _still_ can't afford to own them. They cost alot to buy, insure, and maintain.

Remember this ltttle aphorism about _maintenance_ costs?

BMW: very expensive
Porsche: extremely expensive
Ferrari: astronomically expensive

That is an important point. The price point buys you a certain level of exclusivity. Of course, that's all relative. If you hang in circles where all your friends have private jets, and that exclusivity is important to you, I agree that Porsche might not be what you have in mind. On the otherhand, if you collect tolls on a highway, you're likely to have the only 911 in your neighborhood.

This "exclusivity" thing always irritates me. I really couldn't care less if my Porsche is considered exclusive or a status symbol. I would drive it if it was $20,000 simply because I love it. I also consider myself fortunate to be able to afford it.

As long as Porsche keeps making great cars (and that's the key), I and others will keep buying them, and say to hell with poseurs who are interested in status and exclusivity and who might feel "cheated" because other people can also enjoy products of the same brand.

So you wouldn't have a problem if Porsche produced a $20K equivalent of the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla and made 500,000 of them? That wouldn't bother you one bit? And then, produced a $30K equivalent of the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry? I'll be honest. To me, that represents a dilution of the brand and I would view the Porsche brand completely different. But I respect your opinion and others who don't mind.

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Oct 11, 2007 6:30:57 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
SoCal Alan said:

So you wouldn't have a problem if Porsche produced a $20K equivalent of the Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla and made 500,000 of them? That wouldn't bother you one bit? And then, produced a $30K equivalent of the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry? I'll be honest. To me, that represents a dilution of the brand and I would view the Porsche brand completely different. But I respect your opinion and others who don't mind.

I'm kinda in a bad mood but here goes anyway.

I personally don't give a sh*t what Porsche does. If they have a product I want I'll buy it. If they, like BMW, start making and continue to make fugly cars, even after 20+years of buying them, I'll never buy another one.

The funny thing, which makes it almost "stupid" to own one will always be this; I have a us$140K+ Turbo that will go almost 200mph in the garage. I use it to go to work and to goof off; everytime I drive it I probably should be stopped, arrested and lose my license.

My point: If Porsche goes down the wrong path and produces stuff I don't like I will move on to something else. I might even get that 0-60 in 3 sec _electric_ two seater. Hey! maybe even a Lambo.

Even, God forgive me, maybe a 50mpg Hybrid that does 0-60 in 12 seconds. Hey! It still would get me to where I want to go, with far less cop- and vandal-dodging stress while it only takes one or two minutes longer to get there.

Sorry for the rant and heresy.

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Oct 11, 2007 7:14:10 PM

tocho1: Newbie; Loc: New York; Posts: 29, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

As long as Porsche makes the 911 I will buy it. The rest who cares.

They can manufacture wahing machines ands stick a Porsche logo to it for what I care...as long as they use the money to keep improving the 911!

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Oct 11, 2007 9:09:29 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: tocho1

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Initially I feel disgusted from the pics I posted, but in reality I agree with tocho1 and MMD. If P still makes a fine 911, what do I care? I may stoop as low as to buy one of those civic looking Pcars for a daily driver and have my 500+hp 998TT in the garage.

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Oct 11, 2007 9:28:49 PM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
rhino said:
Initially I feel disgusted from the pics I posted, but in reality I agree with tocho1 and MMD. If P still makes a fine 911, what do I care? I may stoop as low as to buy one of those civic looking Pcars for a daily driver and have my 500+hp 998TT in the garage.

the 911 is as iconic as any car can get... no doubt... it's the company it's with that gets to me frankly... the cayman and boxster aren't so much of a bother... the cayenne is... and I'm worried about the panamera... talks are it is built on the cayenne's platform, i.e. it is a full-size sedan, with a slight "coupe" allure in the rear! again, what if porsche goes for a mini-SUV, a hot-hatch, and/or diesels!!! what company would the amazingly iconic 911 be in?

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Oct 11, 2007 9:34:40 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Marwan Arakji

Re: Do you feel cheated???

I just hope they shed allot of pounds off the 911 line.

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Oct 12, 2007 1:55:19 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
MMD said:

I personally don't give a sh*t what Porsche does. If they have a product I want I'll buy it.

Sorry for the apparent arrogance.

I forgot to mention "the product" should be less than us$150K. I'm not gonna spend more than that on ANY car.

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Oct 12, 2007 4:24:17 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: WR

Re: Do you feel cheated???

Quote:
WR said:
+1 that agree in Porsche is getting less exclusive with time

I would agree with you with respect to the readers of rennteam.com, but it still seems to me that 99% of Americans don't own a Porsche. In that respect Porsche still seems exclusive.

David

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