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    Sep 26, 2007 7:02:36 PM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.



    You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

    And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

    You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

    Then some questions : Have one of the better informed persons been to NS during supertest?
    Have one of you seen the data?
    Have one of you ever seen the measurement equipment?
    Have one of you driving with HvS?
    Your knowledge is only based on reading SA for years ?
    And based on that you marked other members who have different thoughts as naive persons?
    Sorry but that doesn't sound "informed" to me but more arrogant.

    Sep 26, 2007 7:10:31 PM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.



    You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

    And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

    You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

    Then some questions : Have one of the better informed persons been to NS during supertest?
    Have one of you seen the data?
    Have one of you ever seen the measurement equipment?
    Have one of you driving with HvS?
    Your knowledge is only based on reading SA for years ?
    And based on that you marked other members who have different thoughts as naive persons?
    Sorry but that doesn't sound "informed" to me but more arrogant.



    In your posts there are no arguments, no information. Just unfounded assertions No information just assertions This might be sufficient for other boards but not for Rennteam

    Sep 26, 2007 7:27:38 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    WBH,

    Few days ago one Motorpresse journalist drove 997 GT2 around Stuttgart area... He overtook 599 GTB without any effort on windy road... In fact Playboy in 599 almost ended in nearby tree...

    In drive dynamics and sheer agility 997 GT2(and 430 Scuderia-at least I hope so) are in all different league from 599... Sorry!



    Kreso, your insights re: various cars are often spot-on , but this anecdote means little ....need to compare equally capable drivers to even begin to draw any conclusions from datapoint....

    Haven't driven GT2 yet; but would argue 599 has seemed more stable/more actively safe than '07 997TT did w/its poorly sorted PASM, etc on my usual mtn twisties routes (and on bumpy, dense-traffic urban fwys where turbo lag is an active safety liability)....

    Fully agree that F passive safety is its rather embarrassing weakness, which one must discount (or risk-adjust) as one assesses F perf capabilities....but don't yet know how fast/smart/effective are GT2's active safety/stability (PSM, etc) systems on a bumpy (perhaps even wet) public mtn twisties road.....

    Sep 26, 2007 9:05:10 PM

    turbosteff
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    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.



    You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

    And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

    You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

    Then some questions : Have one of the better informed persons been to NS during supertest?
    Have one of you seen the data?
    Have one of you ever seen the measurement equipment?
    Have one of you driving with HvS?
    Your knowledge is only based on reading SA for years ?
    And based on that you marked other members who have different thoughts as naive persons?
    Sorry but that doesn't sound "informed" to me but more arrogant.



    In your posts there are no arguments, no information. Just unfounded assertions No information just assertions This might be sufficient for other boards but not for Rennteam

    Ok last post about this topic:
    For a good rennteam member HvS is God, supertest the bible and if I do not agree with the good informed members I am a naive minority.

    PS:With respect: YOU discuss about a 997TT I drive one all day. Who knows the car better?????

    Sep 27, 2007 1:29:21 AM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Whoopsy
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:

    PS:With respect: YOU discuss about a 997TT I drive one all day. Who knows the car better?????



    Depends on whom you ask, but I am pretty sure they will answer THEY know better, that's why they didn't buy one in the first place.

    Sometimes it is a sad place in here, a lot of them trust a 'journalist' more than professionals.

    They keep forgetting that if a manufacturer claims a time, it means they DID such a time, marketing BS can only go so far, if the information is false they can be sued. Maybe a time is achieved with the interior stripped out and more but a car DID finished with such a time. Because of the threat of lawsuits, most manufacturer times are SLOWER than real world.

    Journalists however are not bound by the same principle, no one is gonna sue them, 99.9% of the time they will be slower than a factory time just because of sheer talent or lack of.
    But they can write a good story and sell more mags which is what their bottom line is.

    Sep 27, 2007 5:51:51 AM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.



    You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

    And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

    You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

    Then some questions : Have one of the better informed persons been to NS during supertest?
    Have one of you seen the data?
    Have one of you ever seen the measurement equipment?
    Have one of you driving with HvS?
    Your knowledge is only based on reading SA for years ?
    And based on that you marked other members who have different thoughts as naive persons?
    Sorry but that doesn't sound "informed" to me but more arrogant.



    In your posts there are no arguments, no information. Just unfounded assertions No information just assertions This might be sufficient for other boards but not for Rennteam

    Ok last post about this topic:
    For a good rennteam member HvS is God, supertest the bible and if I do not agree with the good informed members I am a naive minority.

    PS:With respect: YOU discuss about a 997TT I drive one all day. Who knows the car better?????



    Well, I drove 996TT for years and I did not order the 997TT based on test drives That is probably better than buying a car without a proper sportscar benchmark in mind (as in your case) as it validates that the car is somehow disappointing compared to its predecessor.

    My point is: You don't present arguments for calling the Supertest crappy - you just state it. You do not critize specific problems with the Supertest but state in general that the test is not credible. You ignore the 100 (or so) test results which (also compared on a one-on-one basis) do make a lot of sense. You don't compare the 997TT Supertest result with other results to check its potential validity. You don't refer to the most recent information in Sportauto regarding changes in the 997TT setup and a second NBR run with nearly identical results as in the Supertest. You don't refer to Kreso's post about that topic. You don't refer to the 997TT Cab being faster in HHR than 997TT Coupe. You don't refer to the timing of publication of the 997TT Supertest (more than 12 months following official launch of the car which is fishy). You don't refer to the reports of 997TT drivers who criticized their car here on Rennteam many, many times. You don't refer to RC who wrote about the problems Sportauto mentioned in the Supertest more than 6 months before the test was published. You don't write about the obvious problems the bad Supertest has caused at Porsche (remember the guy telling us how much pressure they get from the board of directors because of the bad test). You don't refer to the context in which Porsche presented the GT2 time (with incredible numbers of reference vehicles). etc. etc.

    In summary, if you are one of two saying the Supertest is crappy you should have best arguments to valiate that point. It is not enough to state that without any arguments at hand

    What is your point? Stating that the Supertest and all other independant tests are worthless in order to give you full flexibility to buy sportscars just based on their design? Sportscars need to be compared regarding their performance - they are build for fast driving. The Supertest is the best benchmark available TO DATE to do such comparisons

    Sep 27, 2007 7:08:57 AM

    turbosteff
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    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Well, I drove 996TT for years and I did not order the 997TT based on test drives That is probably better than buying a car without a proper sportscar benchmark in mind (as in your case) as it validates that the car is somehow disappointing compared to its predecessor.
    ....



    1. I promised not post to the HvS-supertest topic again.
    2. It makes no sense to answer if somebody do not read my post exactly.
    3. I am able to buy a car only because it looks good (the reason for buying the 997 and my Aston Martins). I do not need data from SA to sleep well. But I assume now I am again in your opinion a naive uninformed person.
    4. If it is not allowed to have a different opinion about HvS and supertest then rennteam is not sufficient to me.

    Sep 27, 2007 7:25:30 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    3. I am able to buy a car only because it looks good (the reason for buying the 997 and my Aston Martins). I do not need data from SA to sleep well. But I assume now I am again in your opinion a naive uninformed person.




    Not at all. It is absolutely fine to buy cars based on their design It is also fine not to give any consideration to the Supertest. There is no law that says "the Supertest has to be consulted before buying a car"...

    However, it does not make sense to shed dubious light on the Supertest without proper arguments in hand. You are free to state: "I am not interested in these test results". No problem. But I (and others) have a massive problem if posters (not only yourself) question the validity and integriy of a leading German car magazine and its major (unusually detailed and professional) test on the basis of a skewed and incomplete knowledge base

    Believe me, we - that we take notice of the Supertest results - have been reading, interpreting and discussing these tests for years. You can assume that we do have sound reasons to spend time on doing this. We would not do it if we believed that the entire test is nonsense.

    Any opinion is fine as long as it is supported by arguments. Just repeating opinions is not enough and leads to frustration on behalf of those who try to make Rennteam something special. The level of disucssions here is different from other forums. Just my opinion.

    Sep 27, 2007 8:31:04 AM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Any opinion is fine as long as it is supported by arguments.

    Sorry I cant remember your arguments for "7.32 are impossible for GT2 and are only fantasy".

    Sep 27, 2007 9:12:33 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Any opinion is fine as long as it is supported by arguments.

    Sorry I cant remember your arguments for "7.32 are impossible for GT2 and are only fantasy".



    Don't think I said that Could you please quote what I wrote precisely...

    Based on my memory, I said that the 7:32 would fit nicely into the set of recent Porsche "dream figures" (given how former Porsche claims have deviated from indepedent verifications by Sportauto) and that the way they presented the 7:32 in their brochure (next to apparently way understated figures of competing cars) sheds some dubious light on the 7:32 claim. It is the complete picture that raises my suspicions. It is just that some recent occurrences at Porsche smell fishy I would be most happy if the new GT2 would be a top-performer again

    Sep 27, 2007 9:53:55 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    BTW: I still don't believe that Sportauto will doe a NBR track time of 7:32 (which was their CGT time). A figure of 7:39 would be good enough, though. However, keeping in mind the 996GT2 figure of 7:46, the cup tires on the new GT2 and the additional hp a figure in the 7:35-7:36 would convince me to a 100% that this car is a must buy.

    My basic assumption has always been: the CGT (even on old and non-cup tires) will be faster in the hands of the same (but capable) driver, let it be WR or HvS. HvS is slower than WR in both cars. However, the GT2 will be slower than the CGT in the hands of either driver Anything else would be hard to believe.

    Sep 27, 2007 12:08:09 PM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    HvS is slower than WR in both cars. However, the GT2 will be slower than the CGT in the hands of either driver Anything else would be hard to believe.



    I absolutely second that. As I said before, I do believe that the new-gen tyres on GT2 and 430 Scuderia have a massive contribution to these times, a similiarly equipped CGT would be faster (and maybe even more controllable) in the hands of a professional driver.

    There is for sure a difference in performance between WR and HvS, one of them is a two-time world rallye champion and even today, at the age of 60, considered one of the most competent and fastest drivers. Not even HvS would say that he is on par with him. That alone is reason enough to understand that the times posted by these two drivers are different; ridiculous to even discuss it.

    HvS represents the enthusiast, who achieved his performance level with a mixture of talent and development of driving skills & experience. World champions surely are gifted with some extra bunch of talent right since birth.

    Sep 27, 2007 1:19:38 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Slightly OT but:
    why couldn't they use the new tires on the CGT?

    Sep 27, 2007 1:37:44 PM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    I absolutely second that. As I said before, I do believe that the new-gen tyres on GT2 and 430 Scuderia have a massive contribution to these times, a similiarly equipped CGT would be faster (and maybe even more controllable) in the hands of a professional driver.


    That was exactly the statement of the Porsche tire test driver why the GT2 is nearly as fast as the CGT.

    Sep 27, 2007 2:50:42 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Slightly OT but:
    why couldn't they use the new tires on the CGT?



    Suspect these latest-tech, bespoke-spec tires are engineered/developed in conjunction w/chassis engineering specific to each car (i.e., GT2 tire specs/nuances wouldn't work for Scud, etc)....

    Just as Enzo is ancient 5yo tech, so is CGT ....prob about as non-productive to try to update these archaic platforms as it would be for RIM to try to update Blackberries of 5yrs ago....or for Apple to worry about maximizing battery lifespan of iPhone when iPhone 1.0 will be obsolete/disposable by time battery needs replacing anyway.....latest-tech cars aren't Pateks; they're more similar to consumer tech disposables, like smartphones....

    Sep 27, 2007 3:07:57 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    After paying $440k for a car, I would hope P does indeed try to fit better tires to the chassis, especially at a time when tires seems to make huge performance advances...

    Sep 27, 2007 3:34:00 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    After paying $440k for a car, I would hope P does indeed try to fit better tires to the chassis, especially at a time when tires seems to make huge performance advances...



    Suspect many of the original buyers of CGT/Enzo traded-in yrs ago.....know several 599 owners (and major repeat F buyers) already trading-in as they await latest/greatest-tech Scud in early '08....nature of tech early-adopters/fanatics....

    Perhaps profit-seeking mfrs realize that buyers of used cars (and owners of elderly-tech cars/infrequent buyers) are not particularly profitable custs for whom to invest scarce R&D dollars....Darwinian selection on various levels....

    Sep 27, 2007 3:49:57 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    It's been beaten to death already, scud isn't the "latest/gratest-tech", its platform is over 10 years old...

    Sep 30, 2007 9:05:54 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    GT2 0-300km/h is 33.0s



    Good info as usual AutoBild sportscars (latest issue) reports the same

    Oct 3, 2007 11:36:59 PM

    355Spider
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Man that's fast times around the ring. As a C6Z06 owner I am extremely impressed by the GT2. I can't wait to drive one.

    Oct 6, 2007 2:10:47 AM

    mp
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    BTW: I still don't believe that Sportauto will doe a NBR track time of 7:32 (which was their CGT time). A figure of 7:39 would be good enough, though. However, keeping in mind the 996GT2 figure of 7:46, the cup tires on the new GT2 and the additional hp a figure in the 7:35-7:36 would convince me to a 100% that this car is a must buy.

    My basic assumption has always been: the CGT (even on old and non-cup tires) will be faster in the hands of the same (but capable) driver, let it be WR or HvS. HvS is slower than WR in both cars. However, the GT2 will be slower than the CGT in the hands of either driver Anything else would be hard to believe.



    I agree - at least on paper, the GT2 shouldn't be as fast around the Ring as the CGT - unless the added torque and better tire technology makes up for other deficiencies.

    As for basing ones purchasing decision on SA's test results - do a few seconds really make any difference, especially when talking about a 20km track?

    Allow me to make my point.

    While SA is likely the best source of test data, they aren't perfect. Isn't it strange they obtained exactly the same Ring time for both GT3 & GT3 RS?

    It's hard enough controlling acceleration tests - launch technique, tires & pressures/temperatures/different tracks used/asphalt adhesion/wind speed & direction/suspension set-ups etc.

    Comparing track times is altogether different and more difficult - IMO.

    Anyone who follows auto racing knows what I mean. The same car/driver with the exact same set-up will post different times from one test session to another, even on the same day (on a normal length course).

    While SA's (or Porsche's) Ring times are interesting to use while comparing different vehicles - IMO caution must be used. Read the Ring's test results (posted on another site) and you will be surprised by several results.

    IMO the GT2 looks like a winner whether or not it's faster than the CGT - which is in another league overall.

    Oct 6, 2007 3:56:32 AM

    WBH
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    Reply to: mp

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Excellent points re: lim accuracy/precision of any NBR/track times, mp

    Doubt GT2 will be a "winner" though...

    Need to have several jaded prospective buyers drive GT2 around favorite public road twisties vs Scud, 599, etc to derive more relevant observations than any journalist or factory test driver is ever capable of producing (they don't hand out those low-paying jobs to just anyone )....

    GT2 w/Luddite gearbox, poss primitive PASM/PSM set-ups, turbo lag/nonlinearity and poor daily-useability (ground clearance, etc) may not be particularly impressive in real-world...or even track....settings....

    Similarly, F's primitive/dubious passive safety tech is likely underwhelming and not confidence-inspiring in any setting, esp for drivers who are risk/reward-conscious (suspect journalists and factory test drivers didn't get their jobs b/c of superior risk/reward judgment ).....

    Have always been underwhelmed by the elderly-tech CGT and its alleged NBR time.....would argue many dim-witted engineers can create a mongrel street/track car w/a Luddite gearbox and no PSM; w/ground clearance such that it can't navigate most fuel station entry/exits or office pkg garage ramps, etc....real challenge is creating car w/impressive NBR times and mtn twisties subjective precision/confidence....in context of real-world perf/safety/precision/daily-useability, etc constraints.....IMO, that's where both P and F have yet to engineer an impressive overall car....I apply fairly heavy discounts to claimed perf data/NBR, etc of any car w/lim or dubious safety and/or daily-useability characteristics....

    Most guys w/resources who have an interest in tracks (a very small no. apparently ) will simply get an FXX/430C/GT3Cup for track duty anyway....

    Oct 6, 2007 6:56:40 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: mp

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    mp said:
    As for basing ones purchasing decision on SA's test results - do a few seconds really make any difference, especially when talking about a 20km track?

    Allow me to make my point.

    While SA is likely the best source of test data, they aren't perfect. Isn't it strange they obtained exactly the same Ring time for both GT3 & GT3 RS?

    It's hard enough controlling acceleration tests - launch technique, tires & pressures/temperatures/different tracks used/asphalt adhesion/wind speed & direction/suspension set-ups etc.

    Comparing track times is altogether different and more difficult - IMO.

    Anyone who follows auto racing knows what I mean. The same car/driver with the exact same set-up will post different times from one test session to another, even on the same day (on a normal length course).

    While SA's (or Porsche's) Ring times are interesting to use while comparing different vehicles - IMO caution must be used. Read the Ring's test results (posted on another site) and you will be surprised by several results.

    IMO the GT2 looks like a winner whether or not it's faster than the CGT - which is in another league overall.



    Agreed. A certain volatility margin should always be applied. Personally, I would fix such margin at approximately 5s per NBR lap. Thus, it would be inappropriate to state that car A (with NBR lap time of 7:46) clearly outperforms a car B with a NBR lap time of 7:49. Just to name an example.

    However, I do not believe in miracles like the "997TT miracle" discussed above: Sportauto doing two (!) test runs with different cars on different days and each run resulting in 7:56 and 7:54, respectively. At the same time the factory claims 7:40 Such deviation has nothing to do with a reasonable safety margin... You probably see my point

    Oct 6, 2007 10:24:35 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Markus,
    You made one big mistake. First run by von Saurma ended with 7.54min time. Second one with different 997 Turbo(latest specs) ended with 7.52min! Few sec I know but, these few secs seems to be very important indeed...

    BTW, current manual 997 Turbo Coupe with LSD and right tires(!) is capable of 7.50min without any problem-even in von Saurma hands...

    Oct 6, 2007 10:58:00 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    You made one big mistake. First run by von Saurma ended with 7.54min time. Second one with different 997 Turbo(latest specs) ended with 7.52min! Few sec I know but, these few secs seems to be very important indeed...





    Uppps... I mixed up the data... Probably as the old 996TT time is still in my head and this time is so close to the 997TT time

    Oct 6, 2007 12:07:56 PM

    eclou Offline
    Veteran
    eclou
    Loc: Texas , United States
    Posts: 1182, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 4, 2006
    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    I am a bit skeptical of the supposed PTM/PASM/Pxx updates from 07 to 08. If they were that significant, it would certainly show more than a 2 second difference over 11 miles.

    Oct 6, 2007 12:09:01 PM

    KresoF1
    Rennteam VIP
    KresoF1
    Loc: Croatia , Croatia
    Posts: 7856, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 3, 2005
    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    ...and they will. More news in few weeks...

    Oct 6, 2007 3:44:28 PM

    mp
    Pilot
    mp
    Loc: New York, USA
    Posts: 361, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 4, 2006
    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I am a bit skeptical of the supposed PTM/PASM/Pxx updates from 07 to 08. If they were that significant, it would certainly show more than a 2 second difference over 11 miles.



    Well, since it is 4 seconds faster, perhaps there is something more to this "rumor"? Regardless, I have trouble with professional drivers using PSM, which was created to prevent us (mortals) from killing ourselves. WR doesn't use it, the CGT and 996GT2 didn't have it....

    But what about stock "alignment" changes? This would surely make a much greater difference at the track? And we now know, thanks to ECLOU and RC that the Turbo benefits greatly from this.

    For example, wasn't the old 996GT2 set-up purposely to understeer by Porsche - perhaps to discourage one from driving too aggressively?

    Getting back on topic, yes it's too bad Porsche has yet to introduce the DSG transmission on the GT2. Will this car be as good as the Scud/Lambo SL - we will find out shortly?

    While it will probably be compared with the 599, not sure they fit in the same category - doesn't the 599 weigh 350+kg more? And I don't care how much techno gadgets is has, there is no way to mask that much added weight - fabulous car however!

    Will the GT2 be all things to all people - of course not. But to those who like wild rides and the fastest 911 ever made - a resounding YES.

    No car can really do it all and please everyone. Really depends on what you're looking for - daily driver/all season driver/weekends only/2 vs 4 seater/best handling/fastest acceleration/top speed etc. You see where I'm going?

    We are "very lucky" to have the current selection of supercars.

    Oct 6, 2007 8:12:34 PM

    Turbo Al Offline
    Rennteam Pro
    Turbo Al
    Loc: Rochester, New York , United States
    Posts: 2531, Gallery
    Registered on: Apr 3, 2005
    Reply to: mp

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    mp said:
    For example, wasn't the old 996GT2 set-up purposely to understeer by Porsche - perhaps to discourage one from driving too aggressively?




    Yes, BUT there is a problem with this approach to "taming" the rear-engined/RWD setup of a 911 (especially a Turbo)-to wit: by setting the suspension to understeer the car in most handling situation means that once its limits are met by physics, such as in lift-off throttle/braking or peak boost/torque, oversteer "snaps" in quickly. Preferably, oversteer is palpated early so corrective counter-steering and throttle steering can be applied in time.

    So in the 996GT2, the car would snap its tail and punish the novice driver closer to its traction limits even though it was more understeer-prone below 80% effort.

    Oct 6, 2007 9:03:06 PM

    MKSGRM
    Rennteam Moderator
    MKSGR
    Loc: Germany , Germany
    Posts: 8098, Gallery
    Registered on: Jun 17, 2002
    Reply to: mp

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:

    Well, since it is 4 seconds faster, perhaps there is something more to this "rumor"?



    As per the latest issue of SportAuto the difference between the former Supertest 997TT and a recently tested 997TT is 2s (not 4s). Maybe Kreso refers to some additional changes not yet published
     
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