Crown

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
You will never get a confirmation here, I tried and the best I can get from all these HvS fans here is: 'trust me, we know he is doing these laps right'.

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

A lot of guys here will quote wiki but that wiki entry is not made by HvS or Sport Auto, so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

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Whoopsy said:
so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

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RR4 said:
This argument is going nowhere until someone tells me if Auto Sport - with HVS - are lapping the Ring AND timing each car they post on their TOP RING TIMES always on a CLOSED course or always on a public day, AND always in the same conditions? If they aren't then the times that are posted by Auto Sport mean nothing.

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Ziggy said:

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Markus, you forgot to mention that it's the 997TT that is hardly an improvement over the 996TT. I would wager that a 996TT X50 with the LSD and X73 would tear the 997TT a new rectum around the NS .

Absolutely correct.

The 997TT has (compared to the 996TT tested with a NBR time of 7:56 in 2000):

- 60hp more
- Cup tires that are (based on Porsche statements) up to 7s faster per NBR lap
- LSD
- same or slightly less weight
- new AWD.

The result of all this: 2s faster than the old 996TT... But hey, I forgot, it is just that HvS had a bad day when he tested the 997TT. The car is so much faster than its predecessor from the 90s

Your argumentation (Crash and MKSGR) make once more perfect sense but I think Kreso got the info from a Porsche engineer that the 996tt's 7.56 time never really happened and is just a "dreamed" lap time.

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Whoopsy said:
997 Turbo on the other hand had a different AWD tuning, one with more front drive. With all the extra electronic helper it is tuned to be safe and easier on the street, but what is good for the street maybe not work the same on a track, plus it was never tuned for the track.

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Whoopsy said:

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

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MKSGR said:

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Ziggy said:

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:

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Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Markus, you forgot to mention that it's the 997TT that is hardly an improvement over the 996TT. I would wager that a 996TT X50 with the LSD and X73 would tear the 997TT a new rectum around the NS .

Absolutely correct.

The 997TT has (compared to the 996TT tested with a NBR time of 7:56 in 2000):

- 60hp more
- Cup tires that are (based on Porsche statements) up to 7s faster per NBR lap
- LSD
- same or slightly less weight
- new AWD.

The result of all this: 2s faster than the old 996TT... But hey, I forgot, it is just that HvS had a bad day when he tested the 997TT. The car is so much faster than its predecessor from the 90s

Your argumentation (Crash and MKSGR) make once more perfect sense but I think Kreso got the info from a Porsche engineer that the 996tt's 7.56 time never really happened and is just a "dreamed" lap time.

Do you believe in this not too plausible reasoning of Porsche I don't

BTW: 7:56 is not a very good number. Compared to all other Porsches of that time 7:56 makes perfect sense (GT2, 996 old GT3 etc.)

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Walter said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
You will never get a confirmation here, I tried and the best I can get from all these HvS fans here is: 'trust me, we know he is doing these laps right'.

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

A lot of guys here will quote wiki but that wiki entry is not made by HvS or Sport Auto, so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

Yes,there is.They once published an article about the Supertest.

They have the tracks (Hockenheimring,the wet handling course and Nürburgring) for themselves.
Many people keep talking about the track conditions.But you can't determine the conditions of a 20km long track juts like that.You can measure the asphalt and air temperature on the start finish line for example but you can be sure that 5km after that you will have different conditions.

But I think you're being a bit too sceptical.What you're basically saying is that unless you aren't there to witness every second of the test,the results aren't valid.

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RR4 said:

Quote:
Walter said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
You will never get a confirmation here, I tried and the best I can get from all these HvS fans here is: 'trust me, we know he is doing these laps right'.

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

A lot of guys here will quote wiki but that wiki entry is not made by HvS or Sport Auto, so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

Yes,there is.They once published an article about the Supertest.

They have the tracks (Hockenheimring,the wet handling course and Nürburgring) for themselves.
Many people keep talking about the track conditions.But you can't determine the conditions of a 20km long track juts like that.You can measure the asphalt and air temperature on the start finish line for example but you can be sure that 5km after that you will have different conditions.

But I think you're being a bit too sceptical.What you're basically saying is that unless you aren't there to witness every second of the test,the results aren't valid.

So are you saying EVERY lap time posted by Auto Sport in their magazine has occurred on a Supertest day, ie in a closed circuit track? I highly doubt that.

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
RR4 said:

Quote:
Walter said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
You will never get a confirmation here, I tried and the best I can get from all these HvS fans here is: 'trust me, we know he is doing these laps right'.

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

A lot of guys here will quote wiki but that wiki entry is not made by HvS or Sport Auto, so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

Yes,there is.They once published an article about the Supertest.

They have the tracks (Hockenheimring,the wet handling course and Nürburgring) for themselves.
Many people keep talking about the track conditions.But you can't determine the conditions of a 20km long track juts like that.You can measure the asphalt and air temperature on the start finish line for example but you can be sure that 5km after that you will have different conditions.

But I think you're being a bit too sceptical.What you're basically saying is that unless you aren't there to witness every second of the test,the results aren't valid.

So are you saying EVERY lap time posted by Auto Sport in their magazine has occurred on a Supertest day, ie in a closed circuit track? I highly doubt that.

I'm sorry, but what you are saying is stupid. They have the track to themselves and it is closed off for other traffic when they test it. You stating otherwise like some sort of expert with no evidence to back up your claims makes your statement libelous.

Quote:
RR4 said:
And you know this by fact, or is this something you heard over the internet.
Bottomline is there is no conclusive evidence anywhere which states exactly how the cars today and 6 years ago were timed on the Ring. Sorry.

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Someone wanna dig that article up and scan it?

This really has turned into a hearsay without evidence to back up those claims.

Same idea like all of you who are skeptical of the factory claimed times without so called independent verification.

WR did a back to back runs within a second of each other, I think that's enough verification for the GT2 times. But what about HvS's times? Any other verifications?

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Markus,
All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software). Second 997 Turbo that Horst tried on Nordschleife features these small changes... Porsche learned a lot from costumer experience belive me... BTW, these changes are really small but, they are good enough for better track times on both Hockenheim and Nordschleife...

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Markus,
All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software). Second 997 Turbo that Horst tried on Nordschleife features these small changes... Porsche learned a lot from costumer experience belive me... BTW, these changes are really small but, they are good enough for better track times on both Hockenheim and Nordschleife...

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

Quote:
RR4 said:

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
RR4 said:

Quote:
Walter said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
You will never get a confirmation here, I tried and the best I can get from all these HvS fans here is: 'trust me, we know he is doing these laps right'.

There is no confirmation ANYWHERE, not even on Sport Auto's own website on how they do their laps, so for all we know all the laps could be of different length and they use different length to get different 'times' to their likings.

A lot of guys here will quote wiki but that wiki entry is not made by HvS or Sport Auto, so there is still no official word from HvS and Sport Auto on how they do the lap.

Yes,there is.They once published an article about the Supertest.

They have the tracks (Hockenheimring,the wet handling course and Nürburgring) for themselves.
Many people keep talking about the track conditions.But you can't determine the conditions of a 20km long track juts like that.You can measure the asphalt and air temperature on the start finish line for example but you can be sure that 5km after that you will have different conditions.

But I think you're being a bit too sceptical.What you're basically saying is that unless you aren't there to witness every second of the test,the results aren't valid.

So are you saying EVERY lap time posted by Auto Sport in their magazine has occurred on a Supertest day, ie in a closed circuit track? I highly doubt that.

I'm sorry, but what you are saying is stupid. They have the track to themselves and it is closed off for other traffic when they test it. You stating otherwise like some sort of expert with no evidence to back up your claims makes your statement libelous.

And you know this by fact, or is this something you heard over the internet.
Bottomline is there is no conclusive evidence anywhere which states exactly how the cars today and 6 years ago were timed on the Ring. Sorry.

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software).

Quote:
turbosteff said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Hmm, I kinda start seeing a trend, make 'god' HvS's weakness is driving AWD cars, the extra traction just confuses his brain.

I skipped the 996 Turbo because I don't think it has enough performance for the price, even when I absolutely LOVED that car's styling and especially the headlamp design. I hated the bug eyes on the 997 Turbo but I still bought one because of the improved performance.

I do not and probably will not go even to 7/10 of the car and I probably used maybe 3/10 of it everyday. But within that 3/10 I felt there was a major improvement over the 996 Turbo and THAT was the reason I bought it.

For the pundits like MKSGR, what's your beef? The car is super fast but only in the right hands, and don't quote HvS because he has already shown the world that he is incapable of extracting a good time out of the 997 Turbo when WR has no problem going fast in one.

Your logic has a serious flaw. Why was HvS so quick in the 996TT? Why was he so quick in the Gallardo? Why was he so quick in the LP640?

You don' honestly believe that he is quick in all the above AWD cars but suddenly screws it in the 997TT.

Again, you and turbosteff try to justify the 997TT because you bought one. I understand that it is hard to accept the obvious in that situation. BTW: there are a few 997TT owners on Renntean which fully accept the critical arguments regarding the 997TT AWD concept. And some of them use way more than 3/10 of the car's potential

My friend Markus on your crusade against Porsche you might lost the ability to read posts accurately. I doubt the supertest and HvS in general. I posted this here and in different boards. If you imply that I only want to justify my TT you are completely wrong. I am not slave to HvS ring times to make decisions what car to buy. Let me argue in your style : you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times. That's childish.
If somebody is not in complete agreement with you and HvS lap time than you write the posts are BS.
BS for me is to write that 7,32 for GT2 are times from fantasy. Now the fantasy became true in an independent magazine.
BS for me is to judge a car (Z06,997TT, and so on) based on one flying lap of one person. An engineer in my business would be fired for such statement if he has only this database.

You wrote you are skeptical towards factory claims in general. If you are only 1% skeptical towards HvS times would be nice. It will help us in Munich in November!

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turbosteff said:
you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.

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Ferdie said:

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KresoF1 said:
All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software).

May I add something in these heated discussions? In the recent SportAuto (yes, that's the magazine we are talking about...) the 997TT convertible achieved a laptime in Hockenheim half a second better than the coupe. They referred to a much more controlled, convincing behaviour at the limit. This, and the above mentioned fact that Porsche will alter the coupe's setup for MY08, should be enough food for thought...

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
turbosteff said:
you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.

You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

Quote:
Crash said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:

Quote:
turbosteff said:
you had the 996TT and you take delight in posting the 996TT is faster than the 997TT based on the HvS times.

You forgot to mention why I did not order a 997TT: I did not order it as I am not satisfied with the package. And it is also true that I would have loved to order a 997TT. You know that better than most of us.

And - with all due respect - you also missed another important point: we on Rennteam discussed the 997TT's shortcomings more than 18 months ago. A time when you not even considered buying a Porsche

You should realize that some around here are much deeper into the subject as you are

I think the French have a word for such incidences:

"Touché!"

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Markus,
All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software). Second 997 Turbo that Horst tried on Nordschleife features these small changes... Porsche learned a lot from costumer experience belive me... BTW, these changes are really small but, they are good enough for better track times on both Hockenheim and Nordschleife...

Quote:
SciFrog said:
It would be shocking but not surprising the 997TT cab beat or equals the 997TT coupe on the NBR if Porsche "fixed" the PTM/PASM...

They would then introduce the facelifted coupe with fixed setup, DFI and 20more hp, and DSK... iPod and bluetooth are still just a dream... Just what the 997TT coupe should have been when introduced. Only question is when will this happen, 08 or 09 CY?