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    Sep 24, 2007 9:21:40 AM

    KresoF1
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    Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Autobild made pretty strange comparison between 997 GT2 and Honda CBR 1000 RR on the Nordschleife. They measured track times for both... Drivers are 997 GT2-W.Rohrl, CBR 1000 RR-Helmut Daehne...

    And NOW Nordschleife track times:

    997 GT2 7.32,18min(Doettinger Hoehe top speed 302.1km/h!!!)

    CBR 1000 RR 8.12,62min

    Rohrl did not brake his previous 7.31min time with 997 GT2.

    Just as comparison times by Horst von Saurma from Sport Auto...

    Gallardo SL 7.46min(Doettinger Hoehe 279km/h)
    599 GTB 7.47min(Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h)
    997 Turbo 7.54min(Doettinger Hoehe 282km/h)

    Also 997 GT2 were faster in all curves then any other sportscar on the Nordschleife(in the same class-997 GT3 etc.).

    Last thing-997 GT2 is faster in 0-300km/h then 599 GTB...

    Sep 24, 2007 9:36:28 AM

    silvershadow
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Very nice things to know.
    The more i know about the GT2 the more i like it.

    Sep 24, 2007 9:38:17 AM

    Boyko23 Offline
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    I am speechless again...
    Where are all the sceptical people about the GT2 performance and Ring times? I am even more impressed from the fact that WR is so close to his record, because the purpose of every record is to be difficult to reach!
    Thanks for the info; you made my day...

    Sep 24, 2007 9:43:15 AM

    Super DariusM
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    Reply to: Boyko23

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Saw the GT2 on an intalian Porsche TV magazine...i'm without words..looks stunning,congrats to all that take it at home..




    Sep 24, 2007 9:48:39 AM

    Boyko23 Offline
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    Reply to: Super DariusM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Can someone scan the article and post it here, because this is the only thing that I found...

    Sep 24, 2007 9:50:58 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Autobild made pretty strange comparison between 997 GT2 and Honda CBR 1000 RR on the Nordschleife. They measured track times for both... Drivers are 997 GT2-W.Rohrl, CBR 1000 RR-Helmut Daehne...

    And NOW Nordschleife track times:

    997 GT2 7.32,18min(Doettinger Hoehe top speed 302.1km/h!!!)

    CBR 1000 RR 8.12,62min

    Rohrl did not brake his previous 7.31min time with 997 GT2.

    Just as comparison times by Horst von Saurma from Sport Auto...

    Gallardo SL 7.46min(Doettinger Hoehe 279km/h)
    599 GTB 7.47min(Doettinnger Hoehe 293km/h)
    997 Turbo 7.54min(Doettinger Hoehe 282km/h)

    Also 997 GT2 were faster in all curves then any other sportscar on the Nordschleife(in the same class-997 GT3 etc.).

    Last thing-997 GT2 is faster in 0-300km/h then 599 GTB...



    The key question is: How should it be possible that the GT2 is 20kph faster on Doettinger Hoehe than the 997TT? I don't believe that this is possible. Also, don't forget that LP640 (640hp), 599GTB (620hp) and even the Techart GTStreet (630hp) just did around 294kph on Doettinger Hoehe.

    The answer to the above question is: the GT2 is not 20kph quicker on Doettinger Hoehe than 997TT. We are simply comparing wrong numbers:

    The only explanation can be that WR enters the Doettinger Hoehe at a significantly higher speed than HvS which (of course) would result in a high top-speed at the end of Doettinger Hoehe. Thus, in the Supertest the GT2 will be likely much slower than 302kph on Doettinger Hoehe.

    P.S.: Kreso, better not believe that the GT2 will be as quick as 599GTB or LP640 up to 300kph I am sure that this is not the case

    Sep 24, 2007 10:01:31 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    How about this-Techart and other really have claimed HP??!!

    Weight! You simply forgot weight...

    Real Porsche's 530hp... Same question as yours was raised on that test by Auto Bild stuff-will costumer get the same car? Answer-choose any 997 GT2 from our production and you can test it! Fair enough...

    BTW, one other pretty good driver also tried 997 GT2 around
    Ring and he achived 7.36min so, not that far from Rohrl. If von Saurma do not achive below 7.40min he simply do not need to test any more... Ok, I am kidding here.

    IMHO you are little bit too sceptical this time. You are forgetting that 997 Turbo and 997 GT2 are two sportscars pretty different from each other...

    Sep 24, 2007 10:06:31 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:

    IMHO you are little bit too sceptical this time. You are forgetting that 997 Turbo and 997 GT2 are two sportscars pretty different from each other...



    You might be right on this one

    I decided (this time) to be sceptical until sufficient independant verification of the Porsche claimed GT2 performance will be available. IF these independant results are OK (meaning in line with what Porsche wants us to believe now) I am likely to order one If not I will continue bashing them

    P.S.: I also believe that HvS will do 7:40 or 7:39 (or something very close). HvS Top-speed on Doettinger Hoehe I would expect to be slightly above 290kph... But let's wait and see. And let's hope that Porsche does not need more than a year to provide SportAuto with a GT2 test car for the Supertest (just thinking of the "mysterious" delay until they were able to publish the bad 997TT Supertest)...

    Sep 24, 2007 10:38:14 AM

    Joost
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    MKSGR:
    If WR enters doetinger hoehe faster than HvS, doesn't that just imply thay WR drives the GT2 faster than HvS does? For these record attempts, one could assume that both drivers are on the very edge of their own and the car's driving abilities. Either the circumstances were different, or the driver's abilities are different.
    -Joost-

    Sep 24, 2007 11:03:21 AM

    BiTurbo
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    Reply to: Joost

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Now I understand what Porsche means with this phrase

    "There is no substitute"

    Sep 24, 2007 11:05:07 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Joost

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    MKSGR:
    If WR enters doetinger hoehe faster than HvS, doesn't that just imply thay WR drives the GT2 faster than HvS does? For these record attempts, one could assume that both drivers are on the very edge of their own and the car's driving abilities. Either the circumstances were different, or the driver's abilities are different.
    -Joost-



    We agree 100% on this. My point was: we should not compare WR's speed on Doettinger Hoehe with HvS's speed (in other cars) on Doettinger Hoehe as these figures depend on how quick the driver is capable of entering Doettinger Hoehe straight

    Sep 24, 2007 12:46:57 PM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    The Gt2 shares the approximate weight and alignment of the Gt3. It should be no surprise that the car is 10 seconds faster on the ring than a Gt3 because it has 120 more hp. I bet the 7:40 TT was running Gt3 alignment at the time - it is the only way possible, and all the production TT's have gotten much less aggressive alignment in order to extend tire life and comfort. I recently ran my car at the track with Gt3 alignment and literally was able to effortlessly chase down Gt3's and Gt2's. With the Gt3 alignment there is no more understeer/oversteer theatrics. The stock TT alignment is not optimal for high performance cornering. This has been noted by most of the test write-ups. In the video in my signature you can see how smoothly an aligned TT can wipe up competitors.

    Sep 24, 2007 1:27:27 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    I agree with you to some point but, we are talking here about STOCK cars.

    You will see one other very interesting thing-new GT2 will be faster on wet handling track(by Sport Auto) then 997 Turbo. Both cars with Cup tires. So, our debate about PTM setup is not just talk...

    Sep 24, 2007 1:47:00 PM

    Walter
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    The key question is: How should it be possible that the GT2 is 20kph faster on Doettinger Hoehe than the 997TT? I don't believe that this is possible. Also, don't forget that LP640 (640hp), 599GTB (620hp) and even the Techart GTStreet (630hp) just did around 294kph on Doettinger Hoehe.

    The answer to the above question is: the GT2 is not 20kph quicker on Doettinger Hoehe than 997TT. We are simply comparing wrong numbers:

    The only explanation can be that WR enters the Doettinger Hoehe at a significantly higher speed than HvS which (of course) would result in a high top-speed at the end of Doettinger Hoehe. Thus, in the Supertest the GT2 will be likely much slower than 302kph on Doettinger Hoehe.

    P.S.: Kreso, better not believe that the GT2 will be as quick as 599GTB or LP640 up to 300kph I am sure that this is not the case



    The GT3 was also very fast if you consider that it "only" has 420hp.

    Also,they could have measured the top speed differently.
    I think Sport Auto measures the top speed before the slight uphill and corner.
    AutoBild could have measured the top speed at the braking point which is after the right hander and the uphill.After the corner there's also a downhill where every car gains speed.

    Measuring top speed at the braking point is very driver dependant.

    Furthermore,the GT2 has no AWD and 50hp more than the Turbo.That's a big difference.

    Sep 24, 2007 2:05:05 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: Walter

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Also,they could have measured the top speed differently.
    I think Sport Auto measures the top speed before the slight uphill and corner.
    AutoBild could have measured the top speed at the braking point which is after the right hander and the uphill.After the corner there's also a downhill where every car gains speed.

    Measuring top speed at the braking point is very driver dependant.




    That is a valid point

    Sep 24, 2007 2:25:47 PM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    You will see one other very interesting thing-new GT2 will be faster on wet handling track(by Sport Auto) then 997 Turbo. Both cars with Cup tires. So, our debate about PTM setup is not just talk...



    I would consider this very compelling evidence that PTM in the TT has not been optimized. Hopefully, a simple PIWIS reprogramming will be available to us. I would be willing to pay for such an update.

    Sep 24, 2007 2:35:50 PM

    Joost
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    We agree 100% on this. My point was: we should not compare WR's speed on Doettinger Hoehe with HvS's speed (in other cars) on Doettinger Hoehe as these figures depend on how quick the driver is capable of entering Doettinger Hoehe straight


    Ahh, ok. Must have not been reading closely enough.
    -Joost-

    Sep 24, 2007 2:38:53 PM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    The key question is: How should it be possible that the GT2 is 20kph faster on Doettinger Hoehe than the 997TT?

    Why key question? The answer is pretty clear : Horst- sometimes slow- von Saumar TT time was not correct. Some other drivers made 7.42 and then it fits.

    Sep 24, 2007 3:03:13 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    The key question is: How should it be possible that the GT2 is 20kph faster on Doettinger Hoehe than the 997TT?

    Why key question? The answer is pretty clear : Horst- sometimes slow- von Saumar TT time was not correct. Some other drivers made 7.42 and then it fits.



    Your post does not make any sense at all Did you read the above posts yet

    Sep 24, 2007 3:16:42 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Markus,

    Let's keep our discussions in good mood... I truly belive that 997 GT2 is "The Right Porsche". Only one problem-it is not everyday/all year car.

    Sep 24, 2007 3:29:14 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,

    Let's keep our discussions in good mood... I truly belive that 997 GT2 is "The Right Porsche". Only one problem-it is not everyday/all year car.



    The mood has never been better However, posts like turbosteff's above do not really support an educated discussion. And educated discussions is what Rennteam is known for

    P.S.: turbosteff is a friend of mine - that's why I do not hesitate to put my opinion in clear words

    Sep 24, 2007 5:35:25 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    WR did 2 runs within a second of each other, I think that kinda validates the times.

    HvS maybe a good and competent driver, but his driving style is just not compatible with the 997TT no matter how hard he tried, hence the slower time.

    Sep 24, 2007 7:09:32 PM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    I decided (this time) to be sceptical until sufficient independant verification of the Porsche claimed GT2 performance will be available. IF these independant results are OK (meaning in line with what Porsche wants us to believe now) I am likely to order one If not I will continue bashing them

    P.S.: I also believe that HvS will do 7:40 or 7:39 (or something very close). HvS Top-speed on Doettinger Hoehe I would expect to be slightly above 290kph... But let's wait and see. And let's hope that Porsche does not need more than a year to provide SportAuto with a GT2 test car for the Supertest (just thinking of the "mysterious" delay until they were able to publish the bad 997TT Supertest)...

    So this magazine is not independent? In your words: why should autobild announce better Porsche lap times ?

    Sep 24, 2007 7:50:51 PM

    RR4
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    MKSGR,

    I don't think Porsche has any trouble selling any of the Turbos, GT2's, or GT3's they produce. So why would they go through the trouble to "make us believe" that the GT2, Turbo and GT3 are really slower than what they purport them to be.
    To me your skepticalness (word?) is bordering on paranoia.

    Sep 24, 2007 8:00:37 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    I decided (this time) to be sceptical until sufficient independant verification of the Porsche claimed GT2 performance will be available. IF these independant results are OK (meaning in line with what Porsche wants us to believe now) I am likely to order one If not I will continue bashing them

    P.S.: I also believe that HvS will do 7:40 or 7:39 (or something very close). HvS Top-speed on Doettinger Hoehe I would expect to be slightly above 290kph... But let's wait and see. And let's hope that Porsche does not need more than a year to provide SportAuto with a GT2 test car for the Supertest (just thinking of the "mysterious" delay until they were able to publish the bad 997TT Supertest)...

    So this magazine is not independent? In your words: why should autobild announce better Porsche lap times ?



    Hmmm. I did not question the Autobild article (although the driver was a Porsche employee ).

    However, I am very much interested in the Sportauto-Test as the result of this test can be compared to all those sportscar benchmarks available. A NBR figure without a proper benchmark does not help much in evaluating a car's performance That is the problem with the WR lap time

    Sep 24, 2007 8:07:48 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: RR4

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    MKSGR,

    I don't think Porsche has any trouble selling any of the Turbos, GT2's, or GT3's they produce. So why would they go through the trouble to "make us believe" that the GT2, Turbo and GT3 are really slower than what they purport them to be.
    To me your skepticalness (word?) is bordering on paranoia.



    Just do a search on some of the discussions we had prior to the introduction of the 997TT. Some of us learned it the hard way: We expected quite a lot from this car - and were disappointed to a certain extent.

    Just do a search on our old discussions regarding the Z06. You might realize that some of us are sceptical towards factory claims in general - until they are verified by independant sources.

    If you did all this you might understand that you do not understand enough to judge my statements as in your above post Better get informed before calling me irrational, sorry.

    Sep 24, 2007 8:17:16 PM

    turbosteff
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Hmmm. I did not question the Autobild article (although the driver was a Porsche employee ).

    However, I am very much interested in the Sportauto-Test as the result of this test can be compared to all those sportscar benchmarks available. A NBR figure without a proper benchmark does not help much in evaluating a car's performance That is the problem with the WR lap time

    If you don't question this articel and hence the lap time too I think it is time to say a little sorry to the naive rennteam members who believed in the "fantasy lap times" of the lying company Porsche?
    For me an invitation for Osteria is sufficient (It is one of the best Italian restaurant in Frankfurt and Markus and I have been there several times. )

    Sep 24, 2007 8:23:37 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: turbosteff

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:

    Hmmm. I did not question the Autobild article (although the driver was a Porsche employee ).

    However, I am very much interested in the Sportauto-Test as the result of this test can be compared to all those sportscar benchmarks available. A NBR figure without a proper benchmark does not help much in evaluating a car's performance That is the problem with the WR lap time

    If you don't question this articel and hence the lap time too I think it is time to say a little sorry to the naive rennteam members who believed in the "fantasy lap times" of the lying company Porsche?
    For me an invitation for Osteria is sufficient (It is one of the best Italian restaurant in Frankfurt and Markus and I have been there several times. )



    I might invite you if HvS also did a 7:32

    (Just kidding, any time below 7:40 or 7:39 would be a great result and a reason to think about ordering the GT2)

    Sep 24, 2007 10:05:06 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    997 Turbo is a extremely fast car but it needs an expert to extract 10/10 out of it, HvS has already proved that he is incapable of extracting 10/10, what makes people think he will be able to extract 10/10 out of the GT2? If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.

    Sep 24, 2007 10:15:16 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Autobild-Walter Rohrl-997 GT2

    Quote:
    Whoopsy said:
    997 Turbo is a extremely fast car but it needs an expert to extract 10/10 out of it, HvS has already proved that he is incapable of extracting 10/10, what makes people think he will be able to extract 10/10 out of the GT2? If HvS is unable to extract 10/10 out of every car he has driven, then his list is meaingless as the comparisons will all be compromised, one car will be compared at 10/10 and another will be at 9/10 or 8/10.



    Because we think the culprit is the new PTM system, no such thing in the GT2...
     
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