Crown

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Draginol said:
Well said, MMD.

If I were using the car as a daily driver through busy traffic, I'd get Tip in a heart beat. It would be a no brainer.

In my case, I have a Jaguar S-Type R as my day car and it's an automatic and very comfortable. So I opted for manual for the 911 Turbo precisely because I don't plan to be driving it in heavy traffic on a day to day basis.

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SchH III said:
MMD, with all due respect, I strongly suspect you have never driven a Turbo Tip and your remarks are merely ruminations of conventional wisdoms. The Tip is an excellent transmission...for AMG Mercedes and I have owned three since 2003. The Tip used in my Cayenne Turbo S (different transmission manufacturer and a six speed) is quite well suited to the intended market application and segment for the vehicle. It is my belief (and I do own and drive a Turbo Tip) the MB transmission dulls the responsiveness of the Porsche driving experience. Morever, the actual performance of the transmission does not necessarily mirror the narrative in the owner's manual or in the dealer's promotional literature; for example, according to the owner's manual, when the 'sport' button is pressed, the car starts in first gear. Specifically, on page 185 in the manual it indicates "When the Sport mode is selected, the vehicle moves off in first gear." In fact, it may or may not depending on a constellation of preceding operational linked variables. My complaints regarding this discrepancy found in the owner's manual not only on page 185 but also on page 75 were reported to my dealer who subsequently contacted PCNA. The error was confirmed. A downshift from second to first may be forced; however, this occurs with a lag. A review of your Turbo's manual will lend credence to my point.

Moreover, for over two years, my 997s was my daily commuter and depressing the clutch in stop start traffic was never troublesome or tiring for me...and it may not be for others. In fact, I once again suggest you read what your owner's manual points out re the Tip when congested conditions are encountered.

Your choice or mine is a function of preference. To define your preference functions collect and analyze accurate and objective data. A purchasing based on heresay and misinformation will disappoint. Drive both...

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Ksurg said:

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SchH III said:
MMD, with all due respect, I strongly suspect you have never driven a Turbo Tip and your remarks are merely ruminations of conventional wisdoms. The Tip is an excellent transmission...for AMG Mercedes and I have owned three since 2003. The Tip used in my Cayenne Turbo S (different transmission manufacturer and a six speed) is quite well suited to the intended market application and segment for the vehicle. It is my belief (and I do own and drive a Turbo Tip) the MB transmission dulls the responsiveness of the Porsche driving experience. Morever, the actual performance of the transmission does not necessarily mirror the narrative in the owner's manual or in the dealer's promotional literature; for example, according to the owner's manual, when the 'sport' button is pressed, the car starts in first gear. Specifically, on page 185 in the manual it indicates "When the Sport mode is selected, the vehicle moves off in first gear." In fact, it may or may not depending on a constellation of preceding operational linked variables. My complaints regarding this discrepancy found in the owner's manual not only on page 185 but also on page 75 were reported to my dealer who subsequently contacted PCNA. The error was confirmed. A downshift from second to first may be forced; however, this occurs with a lag. A review of your Turbo's manual will lend credence to my point.

Moreover, for over two years, my 997s was my daily commuter and depressing the clutch in stop start traffic was never troublesome or tiring for me...and it may not be for others. In fact, I once again suggest you read what your owner's manual points out re the Tip when congested conditions are encountered.

Your choice or mine is a function of preference. To define your preference functions collect and analyze accurate and objective data. A purchasing based on heresay and misinformation will disappoint. Drive both...

I have driven both the tip and the manual in a C4S. I owned both. But in all fairness, hell will freeze over before most Porsche dealerships will allow you to drive two turbo's head to head...one with manual and the other with tip.

Though I agree with almost all the comments made in this forum, almost nobody has really given the tip a chance. What do I mean? I know that there is a learning curve on the tip and that when used properly it is way better then any one is willing to admit. I would go so far as to speculate that more than 50% of the purists on this board would post better track times with a tip over the manual given a few days of practice. Why? Because it takes more skill to get the performance out of a turbo with a manual than with a tip. Most of us aren't that talented, at least not when it comes to performance driving.

With that said, it is more engaging( think fun ) to drive a manual. But the idea of loss of performance or handling for all but the exceptional driven is IMO an illusion.

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MMD said:Why? Because the turbo is potentially so fast to get that speed you can no longer waste time shifting with wrist and left leg..

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MMD said:
This Tip vs. manual is starting to remind me of a photography class I took a while ago.

Firstly, if a guy is doing alot of rush hour traffic, commuting then by all means do not frown on the Tip: it's an excellent transmission.

If you want to use the car for more open-road and non-routine driving get the manual if so inclined.

The photo class: we were all amateurs. All we needed was a decent adjustable camera. There was a guy in the class who went nuts claiming expensive, complex, and many pieces of wide ranging equipment were needed. All we wanted was to learn about photography as creative personal expression.

Obviously the parallel is the more particular you are, the more track-conscious you are, the more you can feel the "innopportune" shift points in the Tip when lifting off the gas while making an aggressive turn, then the more you should test drive a Tip to decide if you can live with it.

What was that again..., Live with what? here's a quote:

"This smart automatic still causes weight transfer problems in some cornering situations, however particularly if your driving becomes less aggressive- even for a moment. The auto modes intelligent mapping defaults to a lazier schedule too quickly one that make wake up and downshift on the way through a turn. "

Just imagine sitting in traffic when your clutch leg has had enough and driving has long ceased to be fun. Will you be glad you didn't get the Tip with the "Smart automatic" shift points causing problems with "weight transfer" during aggressive driving around turns?

Oh..., very important point: what about putting the Tip in __manual__ mode around those turns? I betcha there will be less to not like about it.

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SchH III said:
MMD, with all due respect, I strongly suspect you have never driven a Turbo Tip and your remarks are merely ruminations of conventional wisdoms. The Tip is an excellent transmission...for AMG Mercedes and I have owned three since 2003. The Tip used in my Cayenne Turbo S (different transmission manufacturer and a six speed) is quite well suited to the intended market application and segment for the vehicle. It is my belief (and I do own and drive a Turbo Tip) the MB transmission dulls the responsiveness of the Porsche driving experience. Morever, the actual performance of the transmission does not necessarily mirror the narrative in the owner's manual or in the dealer's promotional literature; for example, according to the owner's manual, when the 'sport' button is pressed, the car starts in first gear. Specifically, on page 185 in the manual it indicates "When the Sport mode is selected, the vehicle moves off in first gear." In fact, it may or may not depending on a constellation of preceding operational linked variables. My complaints regarding this discrepancy found in the owner's manual not only on page 185 but also on page 75 were reported to my dealer who subsequently contacted PCNA. The error was confirmed. A downshift from second to first may be forced; however, this occurs with a lag. A review of your Turbo's manual will lend credence to my point.

Moreover, for over two years, my 997s was my daily commuter and depressing the clutch in stop start traffic was never troublesome or tiring for me...and it may not be for others. In fact, I once again suggest you read what your owner's manual points out re the Tip when congested conditions are encountered.

Your choice or mine is a function of preference. To define your preference functions collect and analyze accurate and objective data. A purchasing based on heresay and misinformation will disappoint. Drive both...

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STRADALE said:... Above aside have you ever tried shifting the tip in manual around a turn when the steering wheel is spinning?

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STRADALE said:... Above aside have you ever tried shifting the tip in manual around a turn when the steering wheel is spinning?

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ADias said:

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STRADALE said:... Above aside have you ever tried shifting the tip in manual around a turn when the steering wheel is spinning?

That depends on how one drives. If one drives with hands at 9-and-3 the tip buttons are perfectly located, and fixed paddles would not be. With the new non-linear steering rack seldom will be needed to slide one's hands out of that ideal spot even on tight hairpins.

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ADias said:

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STRADALE said:... Above aside have you ever tried shifting the tip in manual around a turn when the steering wheel is spinning?

That depends on how one drives. If one drives with hands at 9-and-3 the tip buttons are perfectly located, and fixed paddles would not be. With the new non-linear steering rack seldom will be needed to slide one's hands out of that ideal spot even on tight hairpins. Besides, doesn't (performance) driving school teach you to shift before the apex and keep the gear during the turn?

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ADias said:
Stradale: How do you know that a future PDK will have fixed paddles? I doubt it. PAG designed the wheel thumbs, called it tiptronic and I would be surprised if they move away from that.

Seriously... shifting in a turn?

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STRADALE said:In beginners school yes but dont tell that to this guy:
(turn up your volume) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HjXXUyQhPE&mode=related&search=

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SchH III said:
The ongoing discourse centers on preferences; in all candor, if my Turbo Tip accelerates 0.3 second more quickly to 60 mph than the six speed I could not physically define the difference. Moreover, to ensure it does, will necessitate torque braking, waiting for overboost, etc. This will require some preparation time on my part or I shall be looking at the tailights on a modified Honda Civic...but I NEVER engage in street racing or visit a dragstrip so it really does not matter. Nor do I question or cast aspersion the Tip's performance capabilities; perhaps for most drivers it would best their track performance compared to a six speed. Frankly, I do not care.

My concerns are twofold: first, a plethora of misinformation re the Turbo Tip has been disseminated and secondly a driving experience which for me (preference once again) which is considerably less involving and engaging relative to a six speed. For others, the appropriate outcome may be antithetical. This, however, does not fall in a rubric of 'right' or 'wrong.' Buy what you prefer...all is copasetic.

Without going into the specifics, if one plans to modify their Turbo (I have done the exhaust system on mine), ECU mods presently are a condundrum with the Turbo Tip and one may find time allocated to researching this topic well spent.

If a dealer will not permit a comparative test drive of both cars, members of your regional Porsche Club may be willing to assist. I would recommend caution with the C4S metaphor as the Turbos are very, very different in my opinion.

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SchH III said:
The ongoing discourse centers on preferences; in all candor, if my Turbo Tip accelerates 0.3 second more quickly to 60 mph than the six speed I could not physically define the difference. Moreover, to ensure it does, will necessitate torque braking, waiting for overboost, etc. This will require some preparation time on my part or I shall be looking at the tailights on a modified Honda Civic...but I NEVER engage in street racing or visit a dragstrip so it really does not matter. Nor do I question or cast aspersion the Tip's performance capabilities; perhaps for most drivers it would best their track performance compared to a six speed. Frankly, I do not care.

My concerns are twofold: first, a plethora of misinformation re the Turbo Tip has been disseminated and secondly a driving experience which for me (preference once again) which is considerably less involving and engaging relative to a six speed. For others, the appropriate outcome may be antithetical. This, however, does not fall in a rubric of 'right' or 'wrong.' Buy what you prefer...all is copasetic.

Without going into the specifics, if one plans to modify their Turbo (I have done the exhaust system on mine), ECU mods presently are a condundrum with the Turbo Tip and one may find time allocated to researching this topic well spent.

If a dealer will not permit a comparative test drive of both cars, members of your regional Porsche Club may be willing to assist. I would recommend caution with the C4S metaphor as the Turbos are very, very different in my opinion.

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Ksurg said:

Quote:
SchH III said:
The ongoing discourse centers on preferences; in all candor, if my Turbo Tip accelerates 0.3 second more quickly to 60 mph than the six speed I could not physically define the difference. Moreover, to ensure it does, will necessitate torque braking, waiting for overboost, etc. This will require some preparation time on my part or I shall be looking at the tailights on a modified Honda Civic...but I NEVER engage in street racing or visit a dragstrip so it really does not matter. Nor do I question or cast aspersion the Tip's performance capabilities; perhaps for most drivers it would best their track performance compared to a six speed. Frankly, I do not care.

My concerns are twofold: first, a plethora of misinformation re the Turbo Tip has been disseminated and secondly a driving experience which for me (preference once again) which is considerably less involving and engaging relative to a six speed. For others, the appropriate outcome may be antithetical. This, however, does not fall in a rubric of 'right' or 'wrong.' Buy what you prefer...all is copasetic.

Without going into the specifics, if one plans to modify their Turbo (I have done the exhaust system on mine), ECU mods presently are a condundrum with the Turbo Tip and one may find time allocated to researching this topic well spent.

If a dealer will not permit a comparative test drive of both cars, members of your regional Porsche Club may be willing to assist. I would recommend caution with the C4S metaphor as the Turbos are very, very different in my opinion.

Fair enough!

For those who have followed my posts over the last few weeks I brought home a 2007 MY cobalt blue 997 turbo tonight...finally! Here are some relative points:
1) I got a great deal going with a leftover 2007. Out of respect for the dealer please don't ask me specifics but way more than I would have guessed based on info on this board.
2) The car is pretty basic...options include SC, adaptive seats, thicker steering wheel, crests in seats.
3) I went with the tip. Honestly, if I wasn't planning to use this car as my daily driver and my wife could drive a manual I would have went with the manual. In the end it wasn't an option and I had to compromise. With that said, I stand by comments regarding performance and handling.
4) Stradale...time will tell but I don't think the tip buttons will be that big an issue and I tend to agree with ADias on placement. However, be wary of getting a multifunction steering wheel with a tip. That is a problem because the tip buttons are small and easily confused with the other buttons.

I can already tell in the short time I've driven the turbo how different a beast it is than the C4S. I need some time to sort it out. My suspicion is that not all the differences will necessarily be good. However, I am totally convinced, cost aside, that it is the car I want to drive all day every day given the choice.