Jun 17, 2004 1:45:25 PM
- Mellow Yellow
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Board: Porsche - Cayenne
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Jun 17, 2004 7:18:42 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jun 17, 2004 7:30:01 PM
- Jeffrey Behr
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Jun 17, 2004 7:36:08 PM
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RC
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Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Not bad. 
Make it much lighter, remove the air suspension and the sophisticated 4WD system (a simple 4WD does the job too) and with 300 kg less and the Turbo engine, it would be the hell of a truck.
I doubt we ever see a Cayenne pickup but I'm still waiting for the 7-seater.
Make it much lighter, remove the air suspension and the sophisticated 4WD system (a simple 4WD does the job too) and with 300 kg less and the Turbo engine, it would be the hell of a truck. I doubt we ever see a Cayenne pickup but I'm still waiting for the 7-seater.
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
brunner said:
Do you need full leather interior and DVD to carry some heavy cement bags in the back?
As I said, the US is not Romania. And not Germany where pickups aren't actually very common (well, the guy who delivers us soft drinks every four weeks has a VW pickup
).How about motocross motorcycles, jet skis, quad bikes or even some beautiful chicks (sorry, ladies...just wanted to give Brunner a hint...)?
There is even a pickup truck with the Viper engine available, I don't remember the name but I saw it once in a parking lot and it looked pretty cool. Not to speak about the massive performance.
I mean look at the Mercedes G-class, a truck actually ordered by the iranian Shah almost 40 years ago. And now it carries an AMG engine which would make every sports car proud.
Did I mention the 108000 Euro price tag and the high demand for G500 and G55 trucks in the US? You see them mostly at night in front of some exclusive nightclubs and restaurants.
The world changes, pickups aren't pickups anymore, trucks aren't trucks anymore and I'm afraid sports cars aren't sports cars anymore. The Smart Roadster is the best example.
Jun 19, 2004 11:03:11 AM
- Joost
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Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
Joost said:
I never understood that pick-up cult in the US... Well, I think the photoshop is well done...
But the front looks way too big for the rear... :P
-Joost-
Maybe because they have more freedom regarding doing motocross, jet skiing and other interesting sports?
And not to forget the price tag of the pickups.
I remember they were the cheapest cars in the US many years ago, I don't know how it is now.
And even if we take the SUV trend in the US: the US had SUVs when we in Europe weren't even thinking of them.
Jun 19, 2004 12:10:39 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Jun 19, 2004 6:27:20 PM
- mcdelaug
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Carlos from Spain
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
at the risk of being flamed for going off topic, I'll take a stab at the "pickup thing" in the US.
Please understand that my comments below are not intended to apply to everyone that owns or uses a truck, but merely is an attmept to explain why some people seem to drive trucks when a more mundane commuter vehicle would do. At least I think this is what Carlos is referring to. No?
In my opinion there is a truck "subculture" in the US. I think it's primarily driven by demographics. Although most of the US residents on this board seem to live in urban areas, much of the US population actually lives in rural areas. Trucks are most common in these rural locations, like the midwest, southwest and southeast. If you think about states like Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Mississippi, etc you can imagine trucks being very common there. For many people that grew up in these areas, the primary family vehicle was a pickup truck. Maybe their family was in the agricultural business, or the father held a blue collar job (welding, pipefitting, oilfield work, or something similar) that required a lot of tools and a vehicle that could transport them around. It seems that for some people the truck becomes a symbol of this particular lifestyle or social stratum. For whatever reason this same subculture is often associated with cowboy hats, "country" music, denim jeans and a more conservative political outlook. Even though the children from such a background often end up working in an office and commuting to work from the suburbs, they still have these preferences ingrained.
Perhaps the most extreme example of this are some of the first generation Mexican immigrants that live in the southern portion of Texas. Sometimes while driving on the freeway I will see a dual axle turbo diesel pickup with at least a 7 litre engine with velour interior, lots of accessory lights, large chrome wheels, and occassionally, the family name emblazoned across the back glass of the vehicle (GONZALES was the last one I saw). I think these vehicles are an attempt to make the statement of "I have arrived" in the truck subculture. Hey, to each his own I say. If I get a chance maybe I'll take a photo of one of these things the next time I am at the auto parts store, they seem to be there a lot. I suspect that some of the other posters from Texas can confirm seeing such vehicles while driving around.
On the other hand, trucks are practical as a second or third vehicle. As you say, there are a LOT of places to go swimming, freshwater or saltwater fishing, etc in the more rural parts of the US. And many people have private boats, jet skis or both. It is simply much easier to put the extra gas cans, fishing gear, life jackets, dogs, or whatever in the back of a truck than packing all that stuff in a car or SUV.
Last of all, trucks are given certain advantages under US law that results in their being less expensive than a comparable sedan of similar size. Trucks (including SUVs) are not required to meet the same gasoline efficiency or crashworthiness standards as "cars" here. Hence they require less engineering and have a lower up front vehicle cost. In addition, some of you probably are aware of the tax law advantages regarding depreciation of vehciles weighing greater than 6,000 lbs in the US. Presumably this is so that businesses that use medium and large sized trucks can have a greater chance to succeed in the earliest (and most risky) phase of their development. In practical terms it means that some professionals are advised by their tax preparers to purchase a >6,000 lbs vehicle so that the entire vehicle cost may be depreciated against their business income in a single year.
Anyway, sorry to drone on so long, I hope this comes across as intended and makes some sense of your question Carlos.
mcdelaug
Please understand that my comments below are not intended to apply to everyone that owns or uses a truck, but merely is an attmept to explain why some people seem to drive trucks when a more mundane commuter vehicle would do. At least I think this is what Carlos is referring to. No?
In my opinion there is a truck "subculture" in the US. I think it's primarily driven by demographics. Although most of the US residents on this board seem to live in urban areas, much of the US population actually lives in rural areas. Trucks are most common in these rural locations, like the midwest, southwest and southeast. If you think about states like Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Mississippi, etc you can imagine trucks being very common there. For many people that grew up in these areas, the primary family vehicle was a pickup truck. Maybe their family was in the agricultural business, or the father held a blue collar job (welding, pipefitting, oilfield work, or something similar) that required a lot of tools and a vehicle that could transport them around. It seems that for some people the truck becomes a symbol of this particular lifestyle or social stratum. For whatever reason this same subculture is often associated with cowboy hats, "country" music, denim jeans and a more conservative political outlook. Even though the children from such a background often end up working in an office and commuting to work from the suburbs, they still have these preferences ingrained.
Perhaps the most extreme example of this are some of the first generation Mexican immigrants that live in the southern portion of Texas. Sometimes while driving on the freeway I will see a dual axle turbo diesel pickup with at least a 7 litre engine with velour interior, lots of accessory lights, large chrome wheels, and occassionally, the family name emblazoned across the back glass of the vehicle (GONZALES was the last one I saw). I think these vehicles are an attempt to make the statement of "I have arrived" in the truck subculture. Hey, to each his own I say. If I get a chance maybe I'll take a photo of one of these things the next time I am at the auto parts store, they seem to be there a lot. I suspect that some of the other posters from Texas can confirm seeing such vehicles while driving around.
On the other hand, trucks are practical as a second or third vehicle. As you say, there are a LOT of places to go swimming, freshwater or saltwater fishing, etc in the more rural parts of the US. And many people have private boats, jet skis or both. It is simply much easier to put the extra gas cans, fishing gear, life jackets, dogs, or whatever in the back of a truck than packing all that stuff in a car or SUV.
Last of all, trucks are given certain advantages under US law that results in their being less expensive than a comparable sedan of similar size. Trucks (including SUVs) are not required to meet the same gasoline efficiency or crashworthiness standards as "cars" here. Hence they require less engineering and have a lower up front vehicle cost. In addition, some of you probably are aware of the tax law advantages regarding depreciation of vehciles weighing greater than 6,000 lbs in the US. Presumably this is so that businesses that use medium and large sized trucks can have a greater chance to succeed in the earliest (and most risky) phase of their development. In practical terms it means that some professionals are advised by their tax preparers to purchase a >6,000 lbs vehicle so that the entire vehicle cost may be depreciated against their business income in a single year.
Anyway, sorry to drone on so long, I hope this comes across as intended and makes some sense of your question Carlos.
mcdelaug
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
our only non p-car is a pick up. granted we are building a house, but there still exists many many uses for the cargo (and towing) capacity. the truck has 4 doors and rear leather seats with as much room as most luxury sedans. the front is similarly plush. however, it drives like crud even though it is the best driving truck currently on the market. i'd love to switch for a 4 door TT pickup
Jun 19, 2004 11:45:55 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
I suspect that some of the other posters from Texas can confirm seeing such vehicles while driving around.
Yes, I will confirm the GONZALES trucks, and the BUBBA trucks and the many other variants. In South Austin there is an annual Ugly Truck contest which always produces some startling finalists. We love trucks in Texas. The Ford F-150 pickup is the largest selling vehicle in the United States and I believe I read that 25% of those sales are in Texas.
BTW, a very good analysis mcdelaug.
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
If you think about it, this preference for trucks that some people have isn't too different than the "import tuner" craze that started on the west coast and has now gone nationwide. I can't say I understand why someone would spend $20K putting a turbo or nitrous and a bunch of stereo equipment in a Honda Civic, but that trend is now popular enough to support an array of magazines, two mediocre movies (remember the Fast and the Furious and its sequel?) and some weekly TV shows. This truck thing is similar. In fact, there is at least one TV show dedicated to installing superchargers, lift kits and other aftermarket items into trucks; oddly enough the show is named "Trucks!" Shockingly original, huh? Anyway, I don't know why some poeple prefer them as their primary vehicle, they just do.
I must say that Porsche really should let the sports car advocates become more accepting of the idea of the Cayenne before they introduce a product that appears to move further away from the company's sports car roots. This isn't to say that the Cayenne is not a very capable vehicle - from RC's posts alone it most clearly is. But the Cayenne was an intentional step towards a more diverse product line for Porsche as a company, and every additional such step creates some anxiety for Porsche's core sports car clientele. Whether such anxiety is truly justified is debatable in my opinion. Opinions anyone?
mcdelaug
I must say that Porsche really should let the sports car advocates become more accepting of the idea of the Cayenne before they introduce a product that appears to move further away from the company's sports car roots. This isn't to say that the Cayenne is not a very capable vehicle - from RC's posts alone it most clearly is. But the Cayenne was an intentional step towards a more diverse product line for Porsche as a company, and every additional such step creates some anxiety for Porsche's core sports car clientele. Whether such anxiety is truly justified is debatable in my opinion. Opinions anyone?
mcdelaug
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
I must say that Porsche really should let the sports car advocates become more accepting of the idea of the Cayenne before they introduce a product that appears to move further away from the company's sports car roots. This isn't to say that the Cayenne is not a very capable vehicle - from RC's posts alone it most clearly is. But the Cayenne was an intentional step towards a more diverse product line for Porsche as a company, and every additional such step creates some anxiety for Porsche's core sports car clientele. Whether such anxiety is truly justified is debatable in my opinion. Opinions anyone?
I agree, the Cayenne has been introduced too fast and Porsche also made a first marketing mistake by making people believe the Cayenne is a SUV sportscar and not a sporty SUV.
They changed their strategy later on but I still can't hide the feeling that nobody really likes the Cayenne as a product but more of a cash source to earn money.
I know that Porsche is proud of the Cayenne and they should be because it is a fine SUV with true Porsche roots, especially regarding driving dynamics. But maybe Porsche tried too hard to establish the Cayenne as a "true" Porsche and not just another product in the Porsche model line, besides the sports cars.
And the fact that VW is involved in Cayenne development and production doesn't help either. True Porsche hardliners, although they know the traditional connection between VW and Porsche, seem to feel very annoyed about this collaboration. And if I see that the new 997 gets a japanese Aisin gearbox, I start to wonder myself: is Porsche really trying to improve products and increase quality or is it only about cost, customer market acceptance (at least on a short run to sell as many units as possible) and of course share holder value.
I know that the Cayenne seems to sell well and it sold well but personally, I can't predict the future of the Cayenne.
Do Porsche customers accept the Cayenne as the 3rd TRUE Porsche model or is the Cayenne just an intermezzo until the 4-door sport limousine shows up?
Honestly, I don't know. I bought the Cayenne because of performance and the good quality impression but not necessarily because of good looks, even if I have to admit that it is growing on me. And what is also sad: when people on the street/fuel station/parking lot see a 911, they start saying how beautiful or how fast it is. When they see my Cayenne Turbo, they are impressed that this truck costs more than 100000 Euro. Period.
I think Porsche has to do something about the Cayenne's reputation and they have to do it fast. It deserves a chance because of it's qualities but I'm afraid that as soon as the new ML shows up, people who bought the Cayenne because of the sporty setup and the strong engines might reconsider their decision. Of course the Cayenne is a Porsche and some people bought it because of the brand name only. But traditional Porsche buyers always bought a Porsche sports car and a Mercedes/BMW/Audi limousine or SUV. I don't think this will change if Porsche doesn't start to REALLY "explain" the Cayenne and it's existance to the public and especially to customers.I have a friend in my town who owns a GT3 MK2 and a 964 RS for racing. We didn't see each other for a very long time and we recently met at my Porsche dealer where he picked up something for his 964 RS. When he saw me in the Cayenne Turbo, he started to make fun of me. He has two kids too and I told him that this is the perfect family car for a Porsche addict like me. He told me that he would never buy a Cayenne, god beware and nobody would even EVER make him drive one. He was so convinced of what he said, I was pretty disappointed because I expected something else.
So it seems that a lot of Porsche sports car owners don't really want or like the Cayenne, some might even see a "threat" in it that Porsche might switch from sports cars to SUVs and limousines if they become more profitable.
I don't know, Porsche surely has to do something about the Cayenne's reputation, maybe offering all Porsche sports car owners a testdrive and more information what the Cayenne is supposed to be and that the Cayenne is no "threat" whatsover to the true Porsche sports cars, on the contrary.
A Cayenne pickup surely would stirr up emotions even more among Porsche hardliners, so I'm not sure it would be a good idea. I fancy the idea of a 7-seater with more luggage room but I don't start to see the market for a lightweight, 2-door, "simplistic" AWD, Cayenne anymore. The Cayenne has to be taken as the product as it is: a modern, very sporty SUV with some Porsche genes and a pretty impressive technology. A true Porsche but not a true Porsche sportscar.
If people start to accept that, including Cayenne owners and Porsche hardliners, the Cayenne might be a huge success and even survive the 1st generation.
Jun 20, 2004 12:45:35 PM
- mcdelaug
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Carlos from Spain
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
I have an idea about how to correct the Cayenne image problem:
Paris-Dakar
Even the most hardline enthusiasts would have to respect a strong (not simply a good) performance in this rally. After all Porsche has a tradition of competing in it (even the 959!).
Would the 911 side be disappointed if Porsche invested any racing budget in the Cayenne isntead of the 911? Probably, but if the results were strong (again, merely good would not do) I think most of them would be secretly pleased and perhaps begin to view the Cayenne more as a "true" Porsche.
mcdelaug
Paris-Dakar
Even the most hardline enthusiasts would have to respect a strong (not simply a good) performance in this rally. After all Porsche has a tradition of competing in it (even the 959!).
Would the 911 side be disappointed if Porsche invested any racing budget in the Cayenne isntead of the 911? Probably, but if the results were strong (again, merely good would not do) I think most of them would be secretly pleased and perhaps begin to view the Cayenne more as a "true" Porsche.
mcdelaug
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
I have an idea about how to correct the Cayenne image problem:
Paris-Dakar
Even the most hardline enthusiasts would have to respect a strong (not simply a good) performance in this rally. After all Porsche has a tradition of competing in it (even the 959!).
mcdelaug
Considering that the cars being run in the Rallye Paris-Dakar these days are only "silouettes" and have virtually nothing in common with the series-production models they purport to be, any well-informed car enthusiasts should not be too inclined to base their buying-decisions on a good result in that event.
But a) enthusiasts turn a blind eye to what they know to be the real truth when they are trying to rationalise the decision to buy a particular car, and b) good racing results still seem to count towards the "bragging rights" which seem to be so important to so many people.
The "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday" effect has probably gone further than improvements in quality and reliability towards boosting Ferrari's sales in the last 6 to 7 years.
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
I don't know why Americans would need a Cayenne Turbo Pickup, this little baby already exists and with 506 HP, a top speed of almost 250 kph and 0-100 kph in slightly over 5 seconds, I think there is no need for another beast like that. Does anybody of our US friends own one or did somebody ever drive one? I'm curious to hear about the handling performance.
Does anybody of our US friends own one or did somebody ever drive one? I'm curious to hear about the handling performance.
Jun 20, 2004 10:08:42 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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RC
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
RC, that "thing" gives new meaning to the concepts of foward weight bias and high polar moment of inertia if it weren't for the sure help of that rear wing, I'd complain about the aerodinamics too
Are you sure you reeeeally wanna know? question is... do its buyers really care about that?
if it weren't for the sure help of that rear wing, I'd complain about the aerodinamics too
Quote:
RC said:I'm curious to hear about the handling performance.
Are you sure you reeeeally wanna know?
question is... do its buyers really care about that?
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
RC said:
Does anybody of our US friends own one or did somebody ever drive one? I'm curious to hear about the handling performance.
An automotive writer with whom I am acquainted told me, "Of course, it's completely ridiculous. But it is somewhat amusing in the right circumstances".
Jun 21, 2004 4:56:19 PM
- Michael (ex. partyboy)
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Reply to:
RC
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
I drove one 2 months ago...
In Switzerland, I know someone who imports the V10's...
Compared with the cayenne, the car is something antiquated.
Very bad steering and Indirect, but the power and the torque of the engine ist amazing, also the sound, with modified mufflers.
But the interior is crap, known from all the rest of the american cars...
In Switzerland, I know someone who imports the V10's...
Compared with the cayenne, the car is something antiquated.
Very bad steering and Indirect, but the power and the torque of the engine ist amazing, also the sound, with modified mufflers.
But the interior is crap, known from all the rest of the american cars...
Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
WOW... I guess I just don't get this thing about Porsche not building ANYTHING but sports cars. 
I have been pleased with being able to have a vehicle that has some utility for people & "things" and still fun to drive. I think it shows some great engineering to be able to produce such great sports cars and ALSO such a great SUV (truck). Thank you Porsche. I could not afford 2 vehicles w/one being a Porsche, now all I have to afford is ONE Porsche. If I want faster and more cornering, I hop on my motorcycle.
I have been pleased with being able to have a vehicle that has some utility for people & "things" and still fun to drive. I think it shows some great engineering to be able to produce such great sports cars and ALSO such a great SUV (truck). Thank you Porsche. I could not afford 2 vehicles w/one being a Porsche, now all I have to afford is ONE Porsche. If I want faster and more cornering, I hop on my motorcycle.
Jun 22, 2004 8:22:10 PM
- Mellow Yellow
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Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
mcdelaug said:
at the risk of being flamed for going off topic, I'll take a stab at the "pickup thing" in the US.
...
mcdelaug
Great summary mcdelaug. Pickup trucks certainly carry a certain demographic stereotype. Unfortunately, I fit none of the stereotypes.
I live the South now, and pickup trucks are EVERYWHERE. The utility of the truck cannot be beat, even by the biggest SUVs. I can haul so much stuff, and not worry about the trip to the local home improvement store to pick up some mulch, trees, lumber, fertilizer, you name it. My wife complains when we do the same our ML320 because it might get the cargo area dirty. The truck also helps for towing a boat, jet ski, or throwing my mountain bike in the truck bed. It also helps a lot for her business (which is one of the main reasons I got the truck).
On the topic of the Dodge RAM with the V10 Viper engine, I would love one. I've been hoping to wait and get a used one in a few years when they depreciate quite a bit.
Here's mine in the background... There's nothing like the rumble of a nice big fat American V8 (aside from a big fat American V10
)
Jun 22, 2004 9:10:04 PM
- fritz
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Re: The "prettier" Cayenne...
Quote:
Mellow Yellow said:
There's nothing like the rumble of a nice big fat American V8 (aside from a big fat American V10
Here's one European who can empathise with that!
Have now also understood where your Username comes from.
I've often thought that Mellow Yellow would be an even better name for that color than Speed Yellow.
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