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Board: Porsche - Cayenne Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

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    Jun 14, 2004 8:51:39 PM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    BTW, the Touareg V10 Diesel is a joke

    I met one on the A9 close to Munich several weeks ago. Acceleration above 200km/h up to 235-240km/h was very close to the acceleration of my car, with my car being slightly quicker.

    Problem (for the Toareg V10) is: I was driving a BMW 530d only...

    I really expected more from the Touareg V10. I mean, it has 315hp or so and in excess of 750NM

    Jun 14, 2004 9:04:36 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    BTW, the Touareg V10 Diesel is a joke

    I met one on the A9 close to Munich several weeks ago. Acceleration above 200km/h up to 235-240km/h was very close to the acceleration of my car, with my car being slightly quicker.

    Problem (for the Toareg V10) is: I was driving a BMW 530d only...

    I really expected more from the Touareg V10. I mean, it has 315hp or so and in excess of 750NM



    The Touareg V10 Diesel runs great up to around 180 kph and starts to loose power/speed above 200 kph. I don't know if it has to do with aerodynamics or gearbox setup but above 200 kph, the Touareg sucks. I followed one in my ML55 AMG and I couldn't pass him up to around 180 but after that, no problem.
    Same happened to me in the Cayenne Turbo, pretty difficult to follow up to around 180 kph but above it...gone.

    I testdrove the Touareg V10 and it develops impressive power in the lower/mid speed range between 30 and 180 kph.
    My Cayenne Turbo is up to 260 kph very very fast, only above 260 kph it goes very slowly, from 270 to 280 extremely slowly. Top speed so far was 280 kph on the speedo (6600 rpm, water temperature at 100*C, fuel consumption 37.3 litres/100 km).

    Jun 15, 2004 7:51:57 AM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    For the same power and price on sports cars, I would go for a NA W12 rather than a V8 Turbo, simply because NA engines are "purer", more "noble", more responsive, rev higher and mostly sound better.
    But we're talking SUV and 4x4 here, very different story.
    The main characteristic is torque, so from a performance point of view, I think Porsche has it right.
    But to be honest, I think it'll all come down to the same problem, for the same power and price, buyers (in general) will go for the Porsche, it's a badge thing

    Jun 15, 2004 1:56:01 PM

    EricAlain
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    EricAlain
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    Let's summarize what is going on:

    Europe, VW has a decent brand image and can hope to sell cars close to Euro 100,000. Problem, people want diesel engines NOT gasoline (over 85% are diesel)

    North America, at best average brand image, and according to VW's management they CANNOT sell VW badged cars north of $ 40,000..... so there is very little opprtunity for them to sell the 450 hp W12 in the US.

    Rest of the World, very small volumes except in China and Brazil BUT no Touareg there.

    Anyway, the Bratislava plant where Touareg and Cayenne bodies are made is running at full capacity (i.e. 100,000 units (60,000 Touareg and 40,000 Cayenne). VW is extremely reluctant to increase the output because they don't want to spend too much money and they want to save some room for the coming Audi SUV.....

    I believe, the 450 hp W12 Touareg is just a marketing gimmick ....

    All in all, may be the W12 is offering the best value for money, it's may be a "better" bargain than the Cayenne TT BUT it won't hurt TT sales.

    It reminds me, when Honda introduced the NSX, the car was suppose to "kill" the 911 forever ..... much cheaper, more powerful, brand new technology, better performances ...... Bottom line it has been a disaster and last year Honda made less than 100 NSX while the 40 years old lady is selling at its best. Not bad for an "outdated" car.

    Jun 15, 2004 3:36:49 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    I talked to my Audi dealer lately and asked about the upcoming SUV, the production model of the Pine Peaks (I think this was the name of the prototype show car).
    He looked at me with a pretty serious face and told me that Audi gets a downgraded SUV only with inferior 4WD system and maximum 6-cyl. engines. Why I asked him and he said that VW decided that a more luxurious/powerful Audi SUV than the Touareg could seriously affect Touareg sales, especially since the price tags would have been in a similar range.
    I'm not sure my dealer knows what he's talking about but if true, I think VW is pretty serious about establishing the Touareg as a highly effective BMW X5, Mercedes ML and even Cayenne competitor.
    The Touareg is already on the second place regarding SUV sales in Germany, after the Toyota RAV. The Cayenne is still behind X5 and ML sales, I'm not sure people really are ready to pay premium for almost the same product. It is no secret that the Touareg and Cayenne share a lot of parts.
    Economics in Europe aren't going to well right now, so I think that even wealthy people are thinking twice before spending money on a SUV. Sports cars are a different story, they're about emotions and people are more likely to spend more money for things they really love and want to have.

    Jun 15, 2004 4:16:16 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    Quote:
    RC said:
    the production model of the Pine Peaks (I think this was the name of the prototype show car)



    Pine Peaks, Twin Peaks... almost its the "Pikes Peak Quattro", I remember because it was named after the uphill offroad race going up the Pikes Peak mountain.

    Interesting about the Audi vs VW SUV. Does VW gobern so much Audi!s models as to limit their potential sometimes so as not to compete? wow.

    Jun 15, 2004 5:38:15 PM

    Tim
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    RC it doesn't really come as a surprise that the Porsche Cayenne is behind Mercedes and X5s sales.
    Most people buying SUVs go for the ML270CI or the 3.0D and since Porsche doesn't offer a small diesel engine for the Cayenne they won't be able to get a share of the cake.

    Would be interesting to see the statistics between, Cayenne S, Ml500, X5 4,4 and Touareg v8 though, which are probably the direct competitors of the Cayenne.

    RG TL

    Jun 16, 2004 11:32:28 AM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: Tim

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine


    According to Porsche's management, the Cayenne is number 1 by a long shot when it comes to V8 sales globally ....

    It's 100% sure, the Touareg, the X5 and the ML will ALWAYS outsell the Cayenne. Cayenne's maximum output is around 40,000 units, while VW is producing around 60,000 Touareg, BMW is making 100,000 X5 and MB around 80,000 ML.

    They also told me, the only country where Cayenne sales are disappointing is ........ Germany !!!! May be there they can feel the heat from the Touareg and from the lack of diesel engines.

    Jun 16, 2004 1:40:19 PM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    Quote:
    According to Porsche's management, the Cayenne is number 1 by a long shot when it comes to V8 sales globally ....





    Really! That is very interesting. I had not really looked at that sales comparison. That could be changing in the future as the Cayenne goes forward. The latest US sales figures show a mix that includes more base models and fewer S models. The S sales are half what they were a year ago.

    Jun 16, 2004 3:46:23 PM

    EricAlain
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine


    You're 100% right GM, V6 sales are cannibalizing some S sales. Prior to the introduction of the V6, Cayenne S sales were roughly around 1,000 units per month in North America (US+Canada). Since January when the V6 was introduced, the rate is close to 700-750 units per month while the V6 is now close to 600 per month.

    Unfortunately I don't have the same data for Europe but I suspect it's about the same. In France, I read in a specialized magazine that was interviewing a dealer, the V6 now account for over 40% of orders....

    Jun 16, 2004 10:44:12 PM

    knockoff
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    Reply to: EricAlain

    Re: VW Touareg - Special Edition with 450 HP and W12 engine

    Just to add my 2 cents... I test drove the Touareg & Cayenne several times. One test I drove them back to back. Mind you, this was the Cayenne (V6) and the Touareg V8. I bought the Cayenne S. Handling was drastically different.
    I understood the suspensions were developed separately. At least driving the 2 indicated that to me.
    I like the Touareg a lot but after driving the Pepper I wanted it more.
    I don't think the increase in power of the VW can change the big differences in the feel of driving the 2. Not all Americans want just the fastest off the line.

    Maybe VW is putting the W12 in the Touareg because they have many that are not being used in the Phaeton and Passat.
     
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