Crown

I was hoping T would have a lower price than Carrera (like old 964 RS America)

18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

I'm underwhelmed by the 991 T...It almost appears Porsche is stuffing the channel with multiple 911 models. I assume their marketing team has identified a segment that is willing to pay a premium for an interesting lower priced version of the 991R. One can only imagine what the special edition of the 991 will be when that is introduced next year.

2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York

RC:

Porker:

RC:

Mikla:

Who would buy the T instead the S? Cannot understand the positioning.

Not a good offer indeed.

A good offer? This car, no other options (other than color choices) and 89k. A word from Porsche.

For 107k? Why not get a 991.2 Carrera instead? There are tons of cars around, prices are good and you may even find a slightly used one with full options for good money.

The point of this car is exactly to offer the opposite, the antidote to a full option 991.2 Carrera. 

Listen, I know we have our differences here in the forum but I don't consider you to be dumb, so you can't be seriously falling for Porsche's obvious play here.  The 911 T is too expensive. Period.

This is no antidote for a full option 991.2 Carrera (hint: an antidote for a full optioned 991.2 Carrera would be a less optioned Carrera ) but a clever marketing trick, which apparently...works. 

Porsche could do much better, for this kind of money they could have offered at least 20 hp more (390 hp would have been nice and a perfect "middle",  a simple software update plus maybe an improved intake would have suffiiced), the magnesium roof from the GT3 RS and other lightweight parts from the GT models.

For 89k, this car would have been perfect. No options, only three colors (black, yellow, red), no comfort features, PCM optional for full money, rear seats optional for free. Trust me, it would have maybe cannibalized Boxster/Cayman sales but I doubt it would have hurt 911 sales.

Christian, you read my mind, as I said earlier whoever buys this car is a big mug...370hp from a turbo charged engine in this day and age and Porsche is charging that amount of money !!! There are loads of cars with 370hp at half the price 

Through the 911R, Porsche sees there is a demand for lightweight manual 911s. Sort of like a proper weekend toy for the mountains.

They made the GT3 Touring. Which is still sort of hard to get, but more possible than a 911R.

Now they made the 911T. Even easier to get. And cheaper too.

For that price point , Porsche can't quite go all out and use really lightweight stuff, but it does proper rear wheel steering to improve the response.

Added bonus? The 911T can be had with PDK, something that cannot be done with a 911R or a GT3 Touring.

The interior is also restyled to be more sporty look than a standard 911.

Yes it's a parts bin car, all 911s are parts bin car for that matters. That's the beauty of the 911 range, most of the stuff can be interchangeable across the range, it doesn't take Porsche a lot of effort to do a car for a specific niche. It's how Porsche became the most profitable car company by a wide margin, they have come a long way since the time they almost died. 

The 991 range is greater than ever, can't be bothered to count but I believe it has more offerings than 996 and 997 series added together.

Perhaps some see it as a betrayal of the Porsche purists, but I disagree, this is what happened when Porsche listens, listens to their customers' want. The profit they rake it means they have more money to spend on doing research to make better cars for us.

When is the last Porsche not the benchmark for their segment?

Cayenne? It is the SUV that everyone else trying to measure up to, and failed. Nothing else handles better. Nor faster.

Panamera? It is also the best driver's sedan, it used to be the M5 but not anymore. Panamera trumps it by a mile. The fact that I think Porsche made a mistake on sizing doesn't quite matter. IMO they chased the wrong segment, they should have entered the A6/5 series/E-class and not the A8/7 series/S class. But even then they have made a full size limo out handle a mid-size sports sedan like M5 is amazing.

Sports car as in 911? Nothing beats a 911 for daily usage, practical, not too flashy, reliable and fast. May not be the fastest but damn close. Everything else that are after have a compromise somewhere when compared to the 911 package.

Junior sports car as in Cayman/Boxster, up until the 718 it was still the benchmark, the 718 is a big let down but still, apart from the sound, it is a great handling car. 

Junior SUV as in the Macan, it may not be as good as the bigger brother Cayenne, but nothing else in that junior segment can out handle the Macan. 

RC:

Porker:

I agree it is expensive, but the same goes for the entire 991 range imo. I don't find the 911 T any more overpriced than I do the 991 Turbo S, for example. Unlike the GT-models I assume you can negotiate a decent discount on these, I can't imagine it being very popular. 

I simply like the ethos behind it.

I understand what you mean and yes, you would be right if Porsche would have done this the "proper" way. 

Nobody expects a 1200 kg street legal 991.2 Carrera T but at least they could have tried harder in various ways.

Or...make it cheaper. 

I like the ethos as well but... it still only appears half-cooked for what it is supposed to stand for. I agree with RC on that one, make the concept more radical or cheaper. Apart from the rear wheel-steering, a weird name and silly graphics, what else is there that differentiates it from the regular Carrera? Unless the car drives significantly different to the regular C2, I don‘t really see the advantage.

Marketing crap. It's not a purist's car, it's a parts bin car designed to move equipment at higher prices before the parts are no longer needed.

sfo:

they should have put in the 6 speed manual from the R/GT3 and left the wheels at 19" .. that would have saved more weight.

 

+1  , then it would of achieved my expectations !

The idea is great , but t is a half done job.   

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

I think the T is a pointless exercise.

However, at 10.000 EUR over the normal Carrera it is not a robbery. You get some extra equipment (I added up at least 7.500 EUR)  and unique features and a "notion of exclusivity", for those who care. The thinking goes that Instead of getting one a many Carrera S for similar money and even less you get a "special" model.

The omitted rear seats and PCM are available at no additional cost which is very decent of Porsche.

Besides you can still order PDK unlike the case of other recent specials.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Whoopsy:

Through the 911R, Porsche sees there is a demand for lightweight manual 911s. Sort of like a proper weekend toy for the mountains.

They made the GT3 Touring. Which is still sort of hard to get, but more possible than a 911R.

Now they made the 911T. Even easier to get. And cheaper too.

For that price point , Porsche can't quite go all out and use really lightweight stuff, but it does proper rear wheel steering to improve the response.

Added bonus? The 911T can be had with PDK, something that cannot be done with a 911R or a GT3 Touring.

The interior is also restyled to be more sporty look than a standard 911.

Yes it's a parts bin car, all 911s are parts bin car for that matters. That's the beauty of the 911 range, most of the stuff can be interchangeable across the range, it doesn't take Porsche a lot of effort to do a car for a specific niche. It's how Porsche became the most profitable car company by a wide margin, they have come a long way since the time they almost died. 

The 991 range is greater than ever, can't be bothered to count but I believe it has more offerings than 996 and 997 series added together.

Perhaps some see it as a betrayal of the Porsche purists, but I disagree, this is what happened when Porsche listens, listens to their customers' want. The profit they rake it means they have more money to spend on doing research to make better cars for us.

When is the last Porsche not the benchmark for their segment?

Cayenne? It is the SUV that everyone else trying to measure up to, and failed. Nothing else handles better. Nor faster.

Panamera? It is also the best driver's sedan, it used to be the M5 but not anymore. Panamera trumps it by a mile. The fact that I think Porsche made a mistake on sizing doesn't quite matter. IMO they chased the wrong segment, they should have entered the A6/5 series/E-class and not the A8/7 series/S class. But even then they have made a full size limo out handle a mid-size sports sedan like M5 is amazing.

Sports car as in 911? Nothing beats a 911 for daily usage, practical, not too flashy, reliable and fast. May not be the fastest but damn close. Everything else that are after have a compromise somewhere when compared to the 911 package.

Junior sports car as in Cayman/Boxster, up until the 718 it was still the benchmark, the 718 is a big let down but still, apart from the sound, it is a great handling car. 

Junior SUV as in the Macan, it may not be as good as the bigger brother Cayenne, but nothing else in that junior segment can out handle the Macan. 

 

Hey Nick,

Since when have you became a Porsche spoke person??

But I have to said, I agreed with most that you said.  If willing to pay a bit more over some of its competitors, then Porsche can almost take care of ones' complete garage.

However, I also agreed with most here that the 911T is too expensive for the minimal weight loss, by a easy cheating way of deleting PCM and rear seats.

Why not just strip the interior insulation like the RS?  very easy to do.

Can't help by not comparing this 911T with my old 2006 997 club coupe.  It got 381hp (X51), 6 speed manual, probably similar if not lighter weight, smaller nimble size, old PCM but if 911T is PCM delete then it doesn't matter.  Main advantage is NA engine.  Guess this 911T is not for any pre-existing old 911 owners looking for upgrade.

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

The problem with Nick’s view of the Panamera and Cayenne is that he only looks at the top most expensive models. Yes they are faster and handle better, but they are also way more money than the rest.

At the margin and at the level of performance Nick is implying, arguing how a people mover handles is irrelevant, how fast are you going to drive with the family in the car? Fun, confort, utility, beauty and quality are also important factors and if you throw in the price in the mix, the Cayenne will always loose, at any model level.

The Panamera issue is slightly different, it only has 4 seats and no luggage space to speak off and is even more money than a Cayenne. For the money of a high end Panamera, you can buy a RRS AND a 911 for fun.

370 hp turbocharged 6 cylinder is a engineering disappointment from such a reputable company in this day and age. Ten years ago maybe, but not now. The 911 has morphed into a sacred cash cow.

I don't think it would have taken much to make this car a significantly better value for the money without stepping on another 911's toes, so to speak.  At 400HP the car would slot between the base and S while potentially providing a better driving experience than either with the proper specifications, i.e. LWB, RWS, MT.  I would add the PCCBs and delete the side decals and the model designation, but that's just my taste. No sunroof, but I'd keep the PCM and AC. It seems that in the US if you get the LWB the rear seats delete so that's another plus for the LWBs.

"Don't worry about avoiding temptation, as you grow older it will avoid you"  Churchill

I like it. I'm with Whoopsy on this one. It might even be collectible. Strange enough I would want the PDK and pccb with no pcm and no back seat. In black. The lightweight glass and rear steering are nice to get!  19" wheels may be a better choice to keep it nimble. I can see them even discounting this car.  US prices are not that bad to start with. 

At least it's better than the "black edition"

And that's pretty much all i have to say about this car

I think the "T" is a clever move by Porsche to somehow make the base carrera more appealing, not more not less. I like that.

I am with RC on that one. The car itself is totally fine, the problem is just the price. Cut it by 10 or 15% and it makes sense. Right now it is ridiculous.

SciFrog:

I am with RC on that one. The car itself is totally fine, the problem is just the price. Cut it by 10 or 15% and it makes sense. Right now it is ridiculous.

And hat was my point. No waiting list and end of model cycle equals big discount in the US. It certainly would hold its value better than a base model or a plain S. ( not worth more but hold value percentage wise)

if you were thinking about a daily driver this may be a way to suffer less depreciation 

That's a good point, the residual may be better than a normal Carrera S and that needs to be taken into account in the price of ownership. Also it's not a base Carrera with everything removed, it's got PASM as standard equipment, rear wheel drive, PSE, shorter gear ratios, and titanium colored 20" wheels that I can remember.

The main drawback for me is that the weight is not really reduced and it didn't get an atmospheric engine, which in turn could of shaved quite a big chunk of the weight right there at the same time if the weight difference of the 991.1 vs 991.2 is any indication (100kg), and wouldn't of killed then to thrown in some bucket seats too in line with the ethos of this car 

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

As a Turbo owner I must admit that I prefer the shove of torque over the  instant response of non Turbo. To me it's the overall feeling of urgent shove. I can wait a second or two. Not racing anyone. . ( pretty certain that is the attraction to electric torque as well as Whoopsy enjoys in the pana Turbo s ).  I can also imagine a tune of this car could make a world of difference and with a couple Turbos that might be some pretty cheap big power!  The chassis, brakes and PDK can handle it. Keep in mind that this future power is why I want the pccb.

Just got back from Austin. My favorite application of power is to run along at 80mph in sixth in sport mode and just hammering the gas for a few seconds. The old Turbo hit 18+ pounds of boost and just starts to pull.  Everyone around me disappears and the V1 becomes my ticket saver.  Managed to not get arrested but I saw dozens not so lucky. F1 weekends in Austin draw more fuzz than my dryers lint trap. 

If you absolutely have to buy new, I guess there is some very fringe case where this car makes sense. If you don't mind buying even slightly used though, you can do waaaaaaay better.

I really don't see this having a good residual unless it ends up like a manual 599 -- something whose value somehow reacted positive to the fact that no one wanted them.

Maybe the T has some special voodoo that becomes apparent when driven hard, so until someone reputable thrashes one we just aren't going to know it's soul. It might be better than the sum of its parts. 

Targa Tim:

Hey Nick,

Since when have you became a Porsche spoke person??

But I have to said, I agreed with most that you said.  If willing to pay a bit more over some of its competitors, then Porsche can almost take care of ones' complete garage.

However, I also agreed with most here that the 911T is too expensive for the minimal weight loss, by a easy cheating way of deleting PCM and rear seats.

Why not just strip the interior insulation like the RS?  very easy to do.

Can't help by not comparing this 911T with my old 2006 997 club coupe.  It got 381hp (X51), 6 speed manual, probably similar if not lighter weight, smaller nimble size, old PCM but if 911T is PCM delete then it doesn't matter.  Main advantage is NA engine.  Guess this 911T is not for any pre-existing old 911 owners looking for upgrade.

I am not. Just stating the obvious. 

For some, the 911T doesn't offer enough content for the asking price.

But for others, it does offer something unique. It's a sportier version of the base Carrera, and it still have some creature comfort items without being a stripper model. 

And nobody cross shop a brand new 911T with a 997 club coupe 

Is there something on the market that competes with a 911T? I really can't think of any. Nothing from Mercedes BMW or Audi. It pretty much stands unique in the market place. Closest competitor would be a GT3 Touring, but that one cost a lot more. Compared with the base Carrera, it comes standard with the sports exhaust system and the sports suspension, plus the rear wheel steering, something one cannot get in the base car. Nor the interior trims.

Not having a super obvious direct competitor doesn't mean it makes sense or isn't just a parts bin, marketing job. I won't bother to list them because I'm pretty sure you'll just say one of the following:

It's not a manual
It's not low-key enough
It doesn't have RWS
It's used, not new

Hell, I'll just go ahead and name one: Gen 1 manual V10 R8.

Interestingly over here the T is $3k less than Carrera. Given the extra stuff on the T (RWS, bigger wheels, PASM, diff) it’s good value here. I guess they know Australians won’t fall for this marketing BS. 😂

Whoopsy:

Is there something on the market that competes with a 911T? I really can't think of any. Nothing from Mercedes BMW or Audi. It pretty much stands unique in the market place. Closest competitor would be a GT3 Touring, but that one cost a lot more.

Now you are exaggerating. It's closest competitor is a base Carrera, if it had rear wheel steering. As for the rest, what is so unique about it?

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

Whoopsy:

And nobody cross shop a brand new 911T with a 997 club coupe 

Of course not, it will be way easier to buy a 911T or any new 911 variants than finding a 997 club coupe

Tim

2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
 

Shorter ratios are actually very interesting as one of my irritations with most recent standard 911s is that the gear ratios are far too wide in one to four.

What is this I hear about Chris Harris confirming that rear seat can be added as a NCO?????? This may make it interesting for me. 

Rear seats are a no cost option and are on the UK and German configurators.

From what I was told yesterday production of this car will be limited, at least in certain markets. The UK is likely to receive under 200 cars for example but final allocation has yet to be agreed with the factory.

Anyone at Porsche who reads this forum must be bemused as over the years we have asked for a more basic 911 that provides more enjoyment on our increasingly congested and speed controlled roads and doesn't cost the earth to buy. They then come up with a car based upon the base Carrera and shorten the gear ratios to make things potentially more involving for the driver at lower speeds on minor roads. We were split on the whole manual versus PDK debate so they are offering both choices. We asked for the best chassis tech to be made available in this more basic car so they have given us SPASM as standard and the option of RWS to make the car more agile. They gave it PSE as standard after the criticism of the sound of the new turbo engines. We asked for a more bespoke interior with a nod towards their heritage with possibly a cloth option. They have offered us the T interior package with seats featuring cloth inserts that tie back to the pinstripe velours of the 80's and also to other special edition models like the 924 Le Mans edition. We also wanted the option of both of the bucket seat options and the possibility to delete the rear seats.

Having ticked off those boxes it seems they have still missed the mark by a mile for many on here which just goes to prove the old adage that you can't please all of the people all of the time. Some love the idea of reducing weight and want everything superfluous to performance left on the options racks whilst others want all the toys left in. The weight obsessed will never be happy unless the car has shed a couple of hundred kilos minimum or the power has been boosted by at least 30 - 50 BHP to compensate for not enough weight being taken out

It might have been a nice gesture by Porsche to have made one unique colour available on this model only (just like they did with Peridot on the 987 Cayman R) but we'd all have argued that they'd offered the wrong one hence why they probably didn't bother with that

Time to face facts gentlemen............   the likes of Rennteam are an impossible crowd to please 100%