Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Traction control for the 360 F1 - Page1

Jun 13, 2004 12:53:57 AM

mnm: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004

Traction control for the 360 F1

Yet another thread and another post

I always read about traction control, and how we should turn it off on the track, etc, but amatuers should not turn it off on the track etc etc.

Embarrasingly enough, I am not sure what traction control actually is

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

What happens if i leave traction control ON, and what happens when I turn it OFF?

This forum is great - you guys have been helpful on the last thread and I hope you will continue to indulge my ignorance!

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Jun 13, 2004 3:28:09 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: mnm

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Traction Controll usually refers to a system where they are sensors at all four wheels, sensing when the tires are about to lose controll, and then applying breaking pressure when nessceary. Somewhat like ABS but independant of all four wheels.

Many people do not like traction controll because it doesn't allow the car to lose grip on the rear wheels letting the back end come around.

Also, Traction controll often results in a marked amount of understeer.

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Jun 13, 2004 1:51:19 PM

mnm: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 17, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
Scuderia said:
Traction Controll usually refers to a system where they are sensors at all four wheels, sensing when the tires are about to lose controll, and then applying breaking pressure when nessceary. Somewhat like ABS but independant of all four wheels.

Many people do not like traction controll because it doesn't allow the car to lose grip on the rear wheels letting the back end come around.

Also, Traction controll often results in a marked amount of understeer.

Thanks for the informative reply.
I also often see the terms understeer and oversteer - what exactly does this mean?

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Jun 13, 2004 3:05:23 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: mnm

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
mnm said:
Yet another thread and another post

I always read about traction control, and how we should turn it off on the track, etc, but amatuers should not turn it off on the track etc etc.

Embarrasingly enough, I am not sure what traction control actually is

Can anybody help shed some light on this?

What happens if i leave traction control ON, and what happens when I turn it OFF?

This forum is great - you guys have been helpful on the last thread and I hope you will continue to indulge my ignorance!

If you have a 360 you do NOT have traction control. What you have is ASR which essentially cuts power if the sensors feel the car is losing its stability. It is a totally different concept (albeit an old one) from the PSM and some other traction and stability management systems.

However it is less intrusive and does allow for spirited driving.

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Jun 13, 2004 4:00:30 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
nberry said:
If you have a 360 you do NOT have traction control. What you have is ASR which essentially cuts power if the sensors feel the car is losing its stability. It is a totally different concept (albeit an old one) from the PSM and some other traction and stability management systems.

However it is less intrusive and does allow for spirited driving.

You know I hate to have to disagree with you, Nick

, but ASR and traction control actually are the same thing.

The abbreviation "ASR" started life as the German expression "AntriebsSchlupfRegelung", because the concept was pioneered by Bosch. You'll be pleased to know that an English interpretation was then invented to make life easier for non-German speakers, this being "Acceleration Slip Regulation" = traction control. The system relies on using the ABS sensors on the driving wheels to measure if a wheel is spinning during acceleration, and then individually braking that wheel.
Kind of like ABS in reverse.

(Incidentally, ABS started life as the German "AntiBlockierSystem", again thanks to Bob Bosch, and then muted to the English "Antilock Braking System").

What I think you probably had in mind is the fact that there are now ASR or traction control systems on the market which use additional sensors (acceleration sensors) to detect additional modes of instability, and also have additional functions, like cutting engine power to protect the driver from his own over-exuberance. Like Porsche's PSM, for instance.

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Jun 13, 2004 6:07:08 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: fritz

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
nberry said:
If you have a 360 you do NOT have traction control. What you have is ASR which essentially cuts power if the sensors feel the car is losing its stability. It is a totally different concept (albeit an old one) from the PSM and some other traction and stability management systems.

However it is less intrusive and does allow for spirited driving.

You know I hate to have to disagree with you, Nick ,

What I think you probably had in mind is the fact that there are now ASR or traction control systems on the market which use additional sensors (acceleration sensors) to detect additional modes of instability, and also have additional functions, like cutting engine power to protect the driver from his own over-exuberance. Like Porsche's PSM, for instance.

For once we agree. I guess if you speak to Porsche or other manufacturers of stability management systems they would characterize the Ferrari system primative. It is all perception.

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Jun 13, 2004 6:24:55 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21156, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

As Fritz explained,

ASR or TCS is what is reffered to as a "traction control" system (only controls excessive wheel spin of driven wheels under acceleration)

PSM, ESP, DSC, VSA etc. are "electronic stability" systems (controls all four wheels independantly via the ABS, ASR and the drive using multiple sensors (yaw, steering angle, throttle input, ABS sensors, etc) to control excessive over/under-steer)

For example '99 996 models could come with traction control system and rear limited slip differential, or electronic stability system (PSM) instead. The traction control allows for sportier driving since the elctronic stab is more intrusive but the payback is that its safer for street driving.

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Jun 13, 2004 6:24:56 PM

Jean: Veteran; Loc: Seoul , South Korea; Posts: 1033, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

My experience with Ferrari 360's ASR does not allow sprited driving at all. You cannot slide the car as the power is dramatically cut and it takes away everying fun about Ferrari handling.

<-turn this upsidedown please

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Jun 13, 2004 6:57:25 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
nberry said:
For once we agree. I guess if you speak to Porsche or other manufacturers of stability management systems they would characterize the Ferrari system primative. It is all perception.

Hey Nick,

I didn't use the word primitive.

My perception is that stability management systems are a great aid in cars intended purely as a means of transport.

A real sportscar is not just a basic means of transport. It is also partly an item of sporting equipment which can be used to develop and hone the driver's skills .... and his self-control.

If he has to rely totally on electronic aids to stay out of trouble, then it does not say much for his skills.

One danger of comprehensive electronic aids is that they numb the senses of drivers. When they then drive a different car without aids, they may never have learnt - or forgotten - the self-restraint needed to safely drive such a car.

Sometimes, less is more.

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Jun 13, 2004 7:02:38 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: Jean

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
Jean said:
<-turn this upsidedown please

Hey RC, are you out there?

I'm with Jean on this one. We need a new emoticon!

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Jun 13, 2004 8:02:00 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Jean

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
Jean said:
My experience with Ferrari 360's ASR does not allow sprited driving at all. You cannot slide the car as the power is dramatically cut and it takes away everying fun about Ferrari handling. <-turn this upsidedown please

(Sigh) Spirited driving to most of us means having fun knowing that there are some aids which will help should we exceed our limits. If sliding a car is your idea of spirited driving, then your right, ASR is not for you. In Japan and in the US, they have schools just for learning how to slide a car.

Fritz, I use the term primitive because that is, in my opinion, what ASR is. I prefer the PSM.

Now I am off to see a CGT which was rear ended after the owner had for 10 minutes. I understand the damage is around $200,000 and no idea how long it will take to fix.

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Jun 13, 2004 8:30:05 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
nberry said:
Now I am off to see a CGT which was rear ended after the owner had for 10 minutes. I understand the damage is around $200,000 and no idea how long it will take to fix.

Hmm, 20,000 bucks a minute.

I bet the owner feels sick. I wouldn't recommend that you try to comfort him by telling him that he should have bought an Enzo.

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Jun 13, 2004 8:51:20 PM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: mnm

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
mnm said:
Thanks for the informative reply.
I also often see the terms understeer and oversteer - what exactly does this mean?

Oversteer is when the car turns so much the rear wheels come out from under the car and lose traction. In my opinion, the ideal car has just a little bit of this dialed in, but not too much.

Understeer is when the car can't turn tight enough to induce such a breaking of traction at the rear wheels. This results in a wider turning circle (the car turning less tightly).

Understeer/Oversteer can be set up with various suspension and tire changes made to the vehicle, and should be done professionally or by someone who really knows what they're doing.

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Jun 13, 2004 9:39:45 PM

Jean: Veteran; Loc: Seoul , South Korea; Posts: 1033, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

(Sigh) By "sliding," I did not mean drifting, of which the schools in US and Japan that I believe you've assumed. I'm not into drifting, nor do these so-called drifting schools interest me one tiny bit. However, I AM into throwing the entire weight of a dynamic car into a corner at race tracks or 'over crests' in canyons for the interest of 'accelerating through and out of the apex'(sounds familiar anyone?

) just for the fun of driving such a balanced performance car with induced oversteer for the pure interest of going around a corner tiny bit faster. Isn't that a spritied driving or what?

360's ASR when 'on,' inhibits this fun greatly.

(upsidedown here again)

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Jun 13, 2004 10:05:56 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Jean

Re: Traction control for the 360 F1

Quote:
Jean said:
(Sigh) By "sliding," I did not mean drifting, of which the schools in US and Japan that I believe you've assumed. I'm not into drifting, nor do these so-called drifting schools interest me one tiny bit. However, I AM into throwing the entire weight of a dynamic car into a corner at race tracks or 'over crests' in canyons for the interest of 'accelerating through and out of the apex'(sounds familiar anyone? ) just for the fun of driving such a balanced performance car with induced oversteer for the pure interest of going around a corner tiny bit faster. Isn't that a spritied driving or what?

360's ASR when 'on,' inhibits this fun greatly. (upsidedown here again)

If that is what you mean, then I disagree. ASR is not that invasive unless your a madman at the wheel.

Otherwise what is the point of having it in a high performance sport car like a Ferrari? BTW, if your intent on killing yourself, Ferrari does allow you to turn off the ASR.

Fritz, the car was rear ended when the owner driver stalled it at a light. The owner was with a techician learning to drive it. The clutch bit him in the rear (pun intended).

Fortunately the damage appears relatively minor ( it was a very low impact collision) but the last estimate on the repair was $90,000 and rising.

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