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Re: Dual clutch transmission?
the dual clutch is (unfortunately) likely to be 'delayed' ie. held back until 'facelift', however, it may be here as soon as MY2006-7.
it will work like any sequential manual ala Ferrari F1A/BMW SMGII, however, it upshifts much faster, the onboard computer calculates many factors and helps smooth things along,
and say, when stopping , it will automatically downshift to a lower gear when revs fall too low.
there is not really much difference in terms of operation between it and the Ferrari/BMW systems, except that when upshifting, it is seemless due to the next gear being preselected.
i've driven both the audi TT 3.2 DSG as well as a Ferrari F1 paddleshift, and if it is anything like the audi on upshift and the ferrari on downshift, we may well be seeing the end of automatic torque converter slushboxes.
it will work like any sequential manual ala Ferrari F1A/BMW SMGII, however, it upshifts much faster, the onboard computer calculates many factors and helps smooth things along,
and say, when stopping , it will automatically downshift to a lower gear when revs fall too low.
there is not really much difference in terms of operation between it and the Ferrari/BMW systems, except that when upshifting, it is seemless due to the next gear being preselected.
i've driven both the audi TT 3.2 DSG as well as a Ferrari F1 paddleshift, and if it is anything like the audi on upshift and the ferrari on downshift, we may well be seeing the end of automatic torque converter slushboxes.
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
RC,
What's the specific timefram you heard?
One year? Two? Facelift? 06, 07?
I know it's too soon to tell, but do you think the paddles will be static like the Ferraris, Aston and other italians or will they be fixed to the steering wheel like Audi and BMW? I prefer the first option.
Thanks.
What's the specific timefram you heard?
One year? Two? Facelift? 06, 07?
I know it's too soon to tell, but do you think the paddles will be static like the Ferraris, Aston and other italians or will they be fixed to the steering wheel like Audi and BMW? I prefer the first option.
Thanks.
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Francois, as far as I heard, Porsche uses a heavily modified version of the well known DSG.
Some variations were tested, including shifting paddles, buttons front and rear, etc..
The time frame is too specific to be unveilled here but I try to give a little hint: a sporty 911 variant might be the first car to get it.
Some variations were tested, including shifting paddles, buttons front and rear, etc..
The time frame is too specific to be unveilled here but I try to give a little hint: a sporty 911 variant might be the first car to get it.
Jun 15, 2004 8:59:07 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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RC
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
Francois, as far as I heard, Porsche uses a heavily modified version of the well known DSG.
RC, I know that Porsche came up with the first Dual Clutch (while ago) but is this by Porsche or AUDI?
Quote:
The time frame is too specific to be unveilled here but I try to give a little hint: a sporty 911 variant might be the first car to get it.
Can't imagine the GT3 would be the one, perhaps the C4 S
?
Jun 15, 2004 2:21:04 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Futch
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
Fanch said:
Nope, I think RC means the GT3 here.
We'll see. Exciting times ahead!
I think it may be the GT3 too, the dual-clutch actually "enhances" performance over the manual so what best media hit than to introduce as an option it in combination with the new 997GT3? but who knows... (well RC probably knows
)
Jun 15, 2004 2:55:21 PM
- Grant
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Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:Quote:
Fanch said:
Nope, I think RC means the GT3 here.
We'll see. Exciting times ahead!
I think it may be the GT3 too, the dual-clutch actually "enhances" performance over the manual so what best media hit than to introduce as an option it in combination with the new 997GT3? but who knows... (well RC probably knows
I assumed RC meant the GT3 also - I just hope that the manual tranny is still available also!
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
but the GT3 is all about raw driving experience. tiptronic/DSG's etc ultimately detract from the traditional view of the driving experience. the GT3 can only be a manual.
i reckon the turbo will be the first to get it. with 'facelift' carrera's being released shortly after with PDK replacing tip.
i reckon the turbo will be the first to get it. with 'facelift' carrera's being released shortly after with PDK replacing tip.
Jun 15, 2004 3:21:00 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
teflon said:Quote:
Moogle said:
...it will work like any sequential manual ala Ferrari F1A/BMW SMGII, however, it upshifts much faster...
Do you have actual performance numbers for the upshift speed, or is that just your opinion?
Greg A
ive seen figures that show the audi DSG box shaves a tenth or two off the 0-60 time. it is lightning quick.
Jun 15, 2004 3:39:03 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
teflon said:Quote:
Moogle said:
...it will work like any sequential manual ala Ferrari F1A/BMW SMGII, however, it upshifts much faster...
Do you have actual performance numbers for the upshift speed, or is that just your opinion?
Greg A
Hi Greg,
The fastest sequential out there was the SMG-II which was faster than any of the magneti-Marelli based sequential like the Ferrari, Maserati, Aston, Alfa, etc. Now the DSG is able to shift 10 times faster than the SMG-II. In terms of shifting speed, its in a different league than the single-cluth sequentials.
But its not only that it shifts so quick, its that power deliverery is virtually un-interruped during the shift since at the same time as the out going gear is being clutched, the new gear is being de-clutched, not after, but at the same time since there are two clutches. Hence it can even accelerate faster than a manual.
Re: Dual clutch transmission?
Quote:
Luke R said:
but the GT3 is all about raw driving experience. tiptronic/DSG's etc ultimately detract from the traditional view of the driving experience. the GT3 can only be a manual.
i reckon the turbo will be the first to get it. with 'facelift' carrera's being released shortly after with PDK replacing tip.
Well, the GT3 is all about performance and the DSG would actually be slightly faster on a race track than a manual (but not nearly as fun for me). This is why I could see it on the GT3 first, but as I said, I hope the manual is still available...
Boxster
Quote:
Fanch said:
Nope, I think RC means the GT3 here.
We'll see. Exciting times ahead!
Don't be silly. "[S]porty 911 variant" obviously means the Boxster. This is the car that is more likely to sell such a transmission. Also, it has less power and power could be an issue. Plus, many more GT3's will be abused by the likes of us than will Boxsters. The Boxster just makes sense.
Stephen
Re: Boxster
i agree, it will be with the tubro, goes with the 06/07 date.
as for the quesiton about how fast the DSG shifts...
it is basically uninteruppted, since the next gear is preselected on a separate driveshaft with a separate clutch.
on downshift however, it will have similar speeds as the SMG-II system from BMW , as there is no preselection for downshifting. thats not to go against it however, that is still very quick.
this is the fastest upshifting transmission in the world because it doesnt move up to the next gear, it is already there.
hope that explains things
as for the quesiton about how fast the DSG shifts...
it is basically uninteruppted, since the next gear is preselected on a separate driveshaft with a separate clutch.
on downshift however, it will have similar speeds as the SMG-II system from BMW , as there is no preselection for downshifting. thats not to go against it however, that is still very quick.
this is the fastest upshifting transmission in the world because it doesnt move up to the next gear, it is already there.
hope that explains things
Re: Boxster
Not quite.
I understand how the DSG works, but I wanted to know the actual speed you referenced to make your comments.
Audi claim an upshift speed of .2 seconds which is 200ms(this is taken from May 2003 article in R&T). I didn't feel like searching for the number, which is why I asked you first.
If the Porsche system will also shift at that or similar speed, it would be slower than BMW's claim of 80ms for the fastest program in SMG II.
Greg A
I understand how the DSG works, but I wanted to know the actual speed you referenced to make your comments.
Audi claim an upshift speed of .2 seconds which is 200ms(this is taken from May 2003 article in R&T). I didn't feel like searching for the number, which is why I asked you first.
If the Porsche system will also shift at that or similar speed, it would be slower than BMW's claim of 80ms for the fastest program in SMG II.
Greg A
Jun 16, 2004 4:25:35 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
teflon said:
Not quite.
I understand how the DSG works, but I wanted to know the actual speed you referenced to make your comments.
Audi claim an upshift speed of .2 seconds which is 200ms(this is taken from May 2003 article in R&T). I didn't feel like searching for the number, which is why I asked you first.
If the Porsche system will also shift at that or similar speed, it would be slower than BMW's claim of 80ms for the fastest program in SMG II.
Greg A
Upshift time for the DSG to the next pre-selected gear is 8ms, not 200ms, so thats were your confusion comes from. SMG-II is 80ms, so DSG is 10x faster in upshift, thats the point of having two clutches. The DSG is the only sequential that is faster than a manual, the Golf R32 for example with DSG does 0-60 0.2sec faster than the manual (6.6sec vs 6.4sec).
Downshift is another matter, but shift speed is not as important anyway since you have to wait for the throttle blip anyway to match the revs when downshifting, so its ussually not mentioned when comparing shift speeds. However downshift with the DGS is usually 600ms, but it may be up to 900ms if you are downshifting several gears at the same time AND to a final gear located in the same bank (1-3-5 or 2-4-6) like from 6th to 2nd, the gearbox has to select a gear from the other bank first (5th gear) before engaging the 2nd gear, so it wil take 900ms. But like I said, the rev matching will take more than the 600ms so not a factor.
Jun 16, 2004 4:33:20 PM
- Moogle
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Jun 16, 2004 4:55:27 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
I agree with you, it will definately be the end for torque converters in real sportcars 
Torque converters are really heavy, they are slower, they increase fuel consumption, the rob torque during the shifts, etc.
But if we move out of the sportcar realm, torque converter still has a big advantage over sequentials and thats its much smoother during shifting, so it will still be the best choice for sedans, SUVs, sportcars wannabe's, etc were performance is not so important and quality of ride and smoothness really. And its probably cheaper to make and maintain, at least now, so it will be more popular on lower end cars or models were money is a big factor.
Torque converters are really heavy, they are slower, they increase fuel consumption, the rob torque during the shifts, etc.
But if we move out of the sportcar realm, torque converter still has a big advantage over sequentials and thats its much smoother during shifting, so it will still be the best choice for sedans, SUVs, sportcars wannabe's, etc were performance is not so important and quality of ride and smoothness really. And its probably cheaper to make and maintain, at least now, so it will be more popular on lower end cars or models were money is a big factor.
Jun 16, 2004 4:59:41 PM
- Moogle
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Re: Boxster
for the sake of friendly argument calos-
agree with the lower end cars bit,
but i think even in higher end saloons, like Merc S class, Porsche's upcoming 998 4-door (or whatever they decide to call it)
the DSG is a perfect tradeoff between sportiness and comfort.
however, i don't understand the bit about comfort on a DSG vs Auto tranny.
mabye in downshifting the auto will be better, but i doubt by much since this is a perfectly matched computer downshift.
in upshifting, the DSG should be comparable to the best slushbox in the world in terms of comfort / lack of jerkiness.
go ahead and drive a audi 3.2TT DSG.
i couldnt even tell it shifted except from the engine note.
agree with the lower end cars bit,
but i think even in higher end saloons, like Merc S class, Porsche's upcoming 998 4-door (or whatever they decide to call it)
the DSG is a perfect tradeoff between sportiness and comfort.
however, i don't understand the bit about comfort on a DSG vs Auto tranny.
mabye in downshifting the auto will be better, but i doubt by much since this is a perfectly matched computer downshift.
in upshifting, the DSG should be comparable to the best slushbox in the world in terms of comfort / lack of jerkiness.
go ahead and drive a audi 3.2TT DSG.
i couldnt even tell it shifted except from the engine note.
Re: Boxster
Carlos,
Thank you for providing the number I wanted. Yes, that is considerably faster than the SMG. 8ms would make it more than 2x faster than an Formula 1 car's trans.
Moogle,
I think it shows definite promise, but I'm not yet willing to agree that this is the future of manual transmissions.
The DSG is far more complicated than a single clutch trans, and as I understand it there is still some complication to the action if you try to engage a gear up/down that isn't already pre-selected.
Also, it appears that in its current state, it cannot handle very much power. Why did Porsche ditch the PDK over twenty years ago?
Greg A
Thank you for providing the number I wanted. Yes, that is considerably faster than the SMG. 8ms would make it more than 2x faster than an Formula 1 car's trans.
Moogle,
I think it shows definite promise, but I'm not yet willing to agree that this is the future of manual transmissions.
The DSG is far more complicated than a single clutch trans, and as I understand it there is still some complication to the action if you try to engage a gear up/down that isn't already pre-selected.
Also, it appears that in its current state, it cannot handle very much power. Why did Porsche ditch the PDK over twenty years ago?
Greg A
Jun 16, 2004 5:22:34 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
Moogle said:
for the sake of friendly argument calos-
agree with the lower end cars bit,
but i think even in higher end saloons, like Merc S class, Porsche's upcoming 998 4-door (or whatever they decide to call it)
the DSG is a perfect tradeoff between sportiness and comfort.
I agree as well, the Quatroporte, Vanquish, F612, new M5, etc have sequentials
(but I doubt MB will go sequential in any of their sedans, they are the king of the torque converters, they don't even give you the option of a manual even in their sportiest models)
Quote:
Moogle said:however, i don't understand the bit about comfort on a DSG vs Auto tranny.
mabye in downshifting the auto will be better, but i doubt by much since this is a perfectly matched computer downshift.
in upshifting, the DSG should be comparable to the best slushbox in the world in terms of comfort / lack of jerkiness.
go ahead and drive a audi 3.2TT DSG.
i couldnt even tell it shifted except from the engine note.
The torque converter is smoother even in upshifting because the mechanism of transfer of torque is totally different. In the sequential you will allways have the on/off/on power delivery no matter how fast it is, so the "jerk" is always felt, especially upshifting. With the hydrolic torque converter, the torque is gradually transfered by transforming the mechanical energy to hydrolic engery and back through the hydrolic clutches, so the shift is not an on/off/on but a rather "fluid-like" ease from one to the other. If doen really fast like a Tip or a MB speedshift, a jerk can be felt because the "ease" is very sudden for speed purposes, but at the expense of shift time, the torque converter can be made almost un-noticeable, like in a Roll Royce for example.
The sequential (single or double) is essentially a mechanically operated manual gearbox so, however minimal, there is allways a WOT-to-zero-to-WOT that gives you that jerk, maybe almost not noticeable in one particular situation and shift but noticeable in city driving for example, and can never achieve the same effect. They can get close, especially the double clutch, but not equal.
Thats the main complaint of the sequentials when used in auto mode, they are too jerky for a auto box compared to a traditional torque converter when used as an auto (vs manual select in sport mode). You hear it in the tests of the SMG for example, or the last time I heard it was the Fifth Gear test of the Quattroporte.
But then there is Audi's Multitronic transmission that they offer on their A4 and A6 as an option
its a continuously variable transmission (CVT) and its as smooth as you can get!... its has NO GEARS
Jun 16, 2004 5:29:00 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Boxster
Quote:
teflon said:I think it shows definite promise, but I'm not yet willing to agree that this is the future of manual transmissions.
Heaven forbid!! no matter how good it is performance wise, it will never compensate for the involvement and pleasure of a manual in a sportcar for some people, myself included. The future of sequentials, yes. The future of manuals? never
So the best thing is to offer both and each one take their pick
Jun 16, 2004 7:08:03 PM
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MKSGR
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