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Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said:
There we are... The shorter gearing (you mention a max speed of 330kph) reduces 0-300 by about 2s, RWD vs. AWD reduces 0-300 by another 2s (both numbers based on Ruf information).
Thus, a TT with the sportauto engine but AWD and a max speed of 350kph would do 0-300 in well above 30s, maybe 33s or so.
This confirms my point: the numbers they told you must be wrong. Probably invented by RS' markeing department
Stock gearing on the RS GT2. 0.75 final ratio in 6th., Tires 295/30, max. RPM 7100, max speed 330Km/hr, it all adds up, no tricks here..
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Difficult question... Depends on the gearing. Also, this 993 has RWD, right?
Maybe 580hp (assuming a max speed of 310-320kph)
The 599 does 0-250 in about 17-18s, the tested 993 RS does it in ca. 15-16s, the Rt12 in ca. 15s. Yes, 580hp could be the figure...
MKSGR, a couple of questions if you don't mind:
- How do you estimate HP from max. speed above?
- If an RT12 @1500kgs (claimed) tested weight approximately, and 650PS, and this 993 with similar weight and much worse aerodynamics does the 100-250 Km/Hr with the a similar time (12s.), how can the 993 have 580PS? The difference in aerodynamics between the two cars must also eat up some serious HP at 250km/Hr from the 993.?
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
GT2ETR said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Difficult question... Depends on the gearing. Also, this 993 has RWD, right?
Maybe 580hp (assuming a max speed of 310-320kph)
The 599 does 0-250 in about 17-18s, the tested 993 RS does it in ca. 15-16s, the Rt12 in ca. 15s. Yes, 580hp could be the figure...
A couple of Questions:
- How do you estimate HP from max. speed above?
- If an [Email]RT12@1500kgs[/Email] (claimed) tested weight approximately, and 650PS, and this 993 with similar weight and much worse aerodynamics does the 100-250 Km/Hr with the a similar time (12s.), how can the 993 have 580PS? The difference in aerodynamics between the two cars must also eat up some serious HP at 250km/Hr from the 993.?
Actually, my statements are just based on guessing...
The link between hp and max speed is the gearing. Thus, I assumed that the tested car has a rather short gearing which would help improving acceleration figures.
I further assumed that the Rt12 is about 1s faster (0-250) than the 993 above. Also, I assumed that the 993 has RWD (rather than AWD in case of the Rt12).
In summary, and this is just gut feeling, these assumptions translate into a 580hp figure... Might be right, might be wrong
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
GT2ETR said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
There we are... The shorter gearing (you mention a max speed of 330kph) reduces 0-300 by about 2s, RWD vs. AWD reduces 0-300 by another 2s (both numbers based on Ruf information).
Thus, a TT with the sportauto engine but AWD and a max speed of 350kph would do 0-300 in well above 30s, maybe 33s or so.
This confirms my point: the numbers they told you must be wrong. Probably invented by RS' markeing department
Stock gearing on the RS GT2. 0.75 final ratio in 6th., Tires 295/30, max. RPM 7100, max speed 330Km/hr, it all adds up, no tricks here..
Thanks for posting the sportauto test
I agree, if one accepted that the sportauto test car had just 540hp (which might in fact be a rather conservative assumption
) the performance claimed by RS for the 569hp version of the TT seems a bit out of place
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
My understanding was that all 650 Ruf engines "dynoed" at around 700 (and the 590 ones at around 620/630.
However you cut it, a 993tt with cr&p aero and similar weight should not be close to a 700hp RT12 in 100-250kph (forget the 0-250 its irrelevant) unless it has similar hp ?
The 599 is another red herring since it has 0.2s gear changes.
The 996GT2 above has lower gearing (than a stock 996GT2) looking at the wheels and tyres quoted so maybe that affected things ?
Further the 569RS 996tt will have had better aero than the 996GT2 - in fact CdA 0.62 compared to CdA 0.666 (the 993GT2 has CdA of 0.694)
Lots of variables to affect the numbers
However you cut it, a 993tt with cr&p aero and similar weight should not be close to a 700hp RT12 in 100-250kph (forget the 0-250 its irrelevant) unless it has similar hp ?
The 599 is another red herring since it has 0.2s gear changes.
The 996GT2 above has lower gearing (than a stock 996GT2) looking at the wheels and tyres quoted so maybe that affected things ?
Further the 569RS 996tt will have had better aero than the 996GT2 - in fact CdA 0.62 compared to CdA 0.666 (the 993GT2 has CdA of 0.694)
Lots of variables to affect the numbers
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
If you take the time to extrapolate the curves on the Cargraphic site using the PS curve the gain is approx as follows.
I find the results quite respectable and in keeping with the desire to maintain engine lifespan acceptable.
I will be following through with the rest of the package.
RPM ps gain tq gain
2000 0 0
2500 34 71
3000 75 131
3500 88 133
4000 88 116
4500 92 108
5000 86 90
5500 71 68
6000 61 54
6500 75 60
I find the results quite respectable and in keeping with the desire to maintain engine lifespan acceptable.
I will be following through with the rest of the package.
RPM ps gain tq gain
2000 0 0
2500 34 71
3000 75 131
3500 88 133
4000 88 116
4500 92 108
5000 86 90
5500 71 68
6000 61 54
6500 75 60
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said: The shorter gearing (you mention a max speed of 330kph) reduces 0-300 by about 2s, RWD vs. AWD reduces 0-300 by another 2s (both numbers based on Ruf information).
Not sure how RUF calculated the 2s....but for gearing (6th gear only) to impact a 0-300kph by 2 seconds faster, the final ratio would need to be so short that max speed would not reach anywhere close to 300kph.
RWD vs AWD 2 sec. gains estimated by RUF is very optimistic and must include 100 lbs weight savings by going 2WD, but in this case both cars (993 and RT12) have the same weight with 2WD on the 993 and 4WD on the RT12, otherwise the 993 would be heavier than the RT12.
Quote:
MKSGR said: I further assumed that the Rt12 is about 1s faster (0-250) than the 993 above. Also, I assumed that the 993 has RWD (rather than AWD in case of the Rt12).
In summary, and this is just gut feeling, these assumptions translate into a 580hp figure... Might be right, might be wrong
If the logger graph that was posted above is accurate, both cars (RT12 and 993) do the same 100-300 kph. Worse aerodynamics on the 993, favour the RT12, so at a minimum this 993 posted here has the same horsepower than the RT12. I can only see one of three options:
- The 580 BHP estimate for the 993 seems very low
or
- The 650 BHP RT12 is too optimitiscally rated.
or
- The RT12 is heat soaking under 6th. gear load
Quote:
TB993tt said:The 996GT2 above has lower gearing (than a stock 996GT2) looking at the wheels and tyres quoted so maybe that affected things ?
The difference in overall ratio 315s vs. 295s is 1.9% with the smaller circumference tires, only about 2/10th difference over a 200-300kph run.
Sorry but going for a Valium now
Those Cargraphic numbers look very solid, I wonder if they hold true on the road?
Cheers
?
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
mp said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
The Rt12 figure has been verified by a car magazine (Autobild Sportscars)
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
mp said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
The Rt12 figure has been verified by a car magazine (Autobild Sportscars)
Indeed. One also has to look at the area under the curve. The Turbos have a fat torque curve which no NA engine can match.
Markus, if the numbers prove accurate, will you ve getting a GT2?
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
mp said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
The Rt12 figure has been verified by a car magazine (Autobild Sportscars)
Indeed. One also has to look at the area under the curve. The Turbos have a fat torque curve which no NA engine can match.
Markus, if the numbers prove accurate, will you ve getting a GT2?
1. IMO, one magazine's results aren't enough.
2. Once you're in the meat of the power curve, additional torque won't affect acceleration - see M5/M6 results.
3. IMO, GT2 is the way to go - built by Porsche! Less performance but bullitproof. Service support will be broader. Resale value should also be better. Most used car buyers will prefer a stock Porsche rather than a "tuned" one.
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
mp said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
The Rt12 figure has been verified by a car magazine (Autobild Sportscars)
Indeed. One also has to look at the area under the curve. The Turbos have a fat torque curve which no NA engine can match.
Markus, if the numbers prove accurate, will you ve getting a GT2?
The GT2 has a biiiiiig problem... It is soooo much slower than the Rt12.
I guess, Porsche has waited too long in disclosing the specs of the GT2. Some customers (including myself) are fed up now by Porsche's marketing approach
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Markus,
First, I am pleased with 997 GT2 specs. Second, fully loaded 997GT2 will cost around Euro 200000(with Mwst) and Rt12 is much, much more expensive then 997 GT2 with the same specs. Or for the difference in price you can buy your wife nice new cabrio like Boxster S, 335i or even entery level Jag XK3.5 cabrio...
Rt12-very, very fast but, IMHO too expensive...
First, I am pleased with 997 GT2 specs. Second, fully loaded 997GT2 will cost around Euro 200000(with Mwst) and Rt12 is much, much more expensive then 997 GT2 with the same specs. Or for the difference in price you can buy your wife nice new cabrio like Boxster S, 335i or even entery level Jag XK3.5 cabrio...
Rt12-very, very fast but, IMHO too expensive...
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
mp said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
mp said:Quote:
TB993tt said:
MKSGR
I just checked the numbers:
569 RS 200-300kph 12.8s
RT12 200-300kph 15s
This is where things are getting hot.....
IMO both of the above figures are questionable, at best. The 599 does 200-300 in about 20s, rather impressive given its proximity to the Enzo's (much lighter car) times. Shaving an additional 2-5s is no small task!!
Either these tuners are sandbagging their HP figures or something just doesn't add-up?
The Rt12 figure has been verified by a car magazine (Autobild Sportscars)
Indeed. One also has to look at the area under the curve. The Turbos have a fat torque curve which no NA engine can match.
Markus, if the numbers prove accurate, will you ve getting a GT2?
1. IMO, one magazine's results aren't enough.
2. Once you're in the meat of the power curve, additional torque won't affect acceleration - see M5/M6 results.
3. IMO, GT2 is the way to go - built by Porsche! Less performance but bullitproof. Service support will be broader. Resale value should also be better. Most used car buyers will prefer a stock Porsche rather than a "tuned" one.
ad 1.: Don't worry. The Rt12 is indeed that quick. RC and myself have done a real life test. The way this car accelerates at ultra-high speeds is really unbelievable...
ad 2.: Crash is right, the torque and hp curve do make a huge difference. Just look at the hp curve of a Rt12. The hp curve is basically flat between 6000 und 7000/min. Thus, shifting from 5th to 6th does *not* reduce the power available. In essence, you are always accelerating with more than 650hp. The result is unbelievable.
ad 3.: The GT2 is a different car. Much cheaper but also much slower.
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Markus,
First, I am pleased with 997 GT2 specs. Second, fully loaded 997GT2 will cost around Euro 200000(with Mwst) and Rt12 is much, much more expensive then 997 GT2 with the same specs. Or for the difference in price you can buy your wife nice new cabrio like Boxster S, 335i or even entery level Jag XK3.5 cabrio...
Rt12-very, very fast but, IMHO too expensive...
Kreso, my friend, you are 100% right.
The thing is: my wife is very happy with her Cooper S
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
LAT said:
Can someone post the numeric results from Autobild on the RT12 0-60 0-200 etc.
Here you go:
0-50kph: 1.5s
0-100: 3.4s
0-160: 6.7s
0-200: 9.8s
0-250: 15.4s
0-300: 24.8s
Please note that these numbers relate to the AWD version with a max-speed of >350kph.
You can order a shorter gearing (reducing max-speed to ca. 330kph) which improves 0-300 by about 2s.
You can also order RWD which also reduces 0-300 by about 2s.
Thus, the Rt12 does 0-300 in 21s to 25s, depending on the above mentioned specs.
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
LAT said:
Can someone post the numeric results from Autobild on the RT12 0-60 0-200 etc.
Here you go:
0-50kph: 1.5s
0-100: 3.4s
0-160: 6.7s
0-200: 9.8s
0-250: 15.4s
0-300: 24.8s
Please note that these numbers relate to the AWD version with a max-speed of >350kph.
You can order a shorter gearing (reducing max-speed to ca. 330kph) which improves 0-300 by about 2s.
You can also order RWD which also reduces 0-300 by about 2s.
Thus, the Rt12 does 0-300 in 21s to 25s, depending on the above mentioned specs.
So how much does the Rt12 in 330 km/h AWD trim cost? *prepares for severe heart attack*
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
LAT said:
Can someone post the numeric results from Autobild on the RT12 0-60 0-200 etc.
Here you go:
0-50kph: 1.5s
0-100: 3.4s
0-160: 6.7s
0-200: 9.8s
0-250: 15.4s
0-300: 24.8s
Please note that these numbers relate to the AWD version with a max-speed of >350kph.
You can order a shorter gearing (reducing max-speed to ca. 330kph) which improves 0-300 by about 2s.
You can also order RWD which also reduces 0-300 by about 2s.
Thus, the Rt12 does 0-300 in 21s to 25s, depending on the above mentioned specs.
Not with "only" 650hp! The Veyron does it in 18.2s but with 1001hp and the aerodynamics to match. Only 3s faster?? Just can't believe this nonsense. Be careful with Tuners. Unless the tested vehicle belongs to a customer and has been dyno'd, be careful with their claims. They can easily boost the power for Magazine tests, especially with turbos.
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
Quote:
mp said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
LAT said:
Can someone post the numeric results from Autobild on the RT12 0-60 0-200 etc.
Here you go:
0-50kph: 1.5s
0-100: 3.4s
0-160: 6.7s
0-200: 9.8s
0-250: 15.4s
0-300: 24.8s
Please note that these numbers relate to the AWD version with a max-speed of >350kph.
You can order a shorter gearing (reducing max-speed to ca. 330kph) which improves 0-300 by about 2s.
You can also order RWD which also reduces 0-300 by about 2s.
Thus, the Rt12 does 0-300 in 21s to 25s, depending on the above mentioned specs.
Not with "only" 650hp! The Veyron does it in 18.2s but with 1001hp and the aerodynamics to match. Only 3s faster?? Just can't believe this nonsense. Be careful with Tuners. Unless the tested vehicle belongs to a customer and has been dyno'd, be careful with their claims. They can easily boost the power for Magazine tests, especially with turbos.
The Veyron also weighs half a ton more than the Rt12 and its aerodynamics are nothing spectacular (it is a big car after all). The Rt12 is probably making close to 700 bhp, but not more.
Re: Cargraphic powerkit
FWIW; The engine builder at RUF whom I know personally told me that they routinely build the RT12 engines to 718-720 PS. If they tune them down when they put them in the car I can't say but as each engine is built and run on an engine dyno those are the numbers they produce.
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