May 2, 2007 10:50:27 AM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: pride355
May 2, 2007 10:50:27 AM
May 2, 2007 11:01:03 AM
May 2, 2007 11:30:46 AM
May 2, 2007 11:37:51 AM
May 2, 2007 2:51:50 PM
May 2, 2007 3:55:14 PM
Quote:
frayed said:
For those of you who are completely disenchanted "Shocking lack of steering feel" "Numb" "Lifeless" "Imprecise" the best suspensions on the market are not terribly expensive (measured against the cost of the car), are accessible and will cure what ails you.
May 2, 2007 11:27:40 PM
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I respect you and your point of view very much frayed but I must disagree.
In my first post on this thread, I described the absence of steering 'feel' in a PASM 997S. I never said that the PASM car didn't perform the job of steering well but rather that the steering 'feel' was lacking.
I'm not technically expert in the PASM mechanism. I've read what the 997 Product Information Guide explains which is quite a detailed guide for salespeople but, nonetheless, it's not a technical manual.
All I can say is that the PASM mechanism (no matter how much it may share with a conventionally sprung suspension, as you described) somehow affects the steering feel on a 997 Carrera to a great extent IMO, so much so, in fact that I was really surprised by it and disappointed.
My view is that the first stab at PASM by Porsche, whilst good, nonetheless has some inadequacies. I haven't tried the 997 GT3 but I understand it represents a noticeable improvement. I am sure you will be able to describe the difference between your GT3 and your old C2S.
Let's hope that PASM gets better and better with each iteration since this seems to be the direction PAG is heading in.
BTW, regarding this:Quote:
frayed said:
For those of you who are completely disenchanted "Shocking lack of steering feel" "Numb" "Lifeless" "Imprecise" the best suspensions on the market are not terribly expensive (measured against the cost of the car), are accessible and will cure what ails you.
I would say that, regrettably, in the UK, most of us are so hesitant when it comes to fitting aftermarket items to our cars. Generally, the market here sticks with the OEM spec to maintain resale values.
May 3, 2007 9:17:14 AM
May 3, 2007 11:43:37 AM
Quote:
SonOfStig said:
Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.
Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.
Thanks in advance,
SoS.
Quote:
SonOfStig said:
Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.
Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.
Thanks in advance,
SoS.
Quote:
stiles_s said:Quote:
SonOfStig said:
Easy, this is somewhat galling as I considered going -20MM at the last minute and was persuaded out of my decision by my salesman. I agree with your observations on lack of feel - the handling is OK but I just know with a car like this that it can be a *lot* better.
Frayed, what suspension suppliers do you recommend (preferably European)? I will be mostly doing road driving (twisties / back roads are where I enjoy the car most) and also bit of track driving, so don't want a really hard setup - more like the feel that -20mm provides as described by Easy.
Thanks in advance,
SoS.
Feels like you're making this too complicated, unless I'm missing something. Why not retrofit the factory -20mm springs and shocks? Way less trouble than a custom Moton/etc setup, and I'm a huge believer in factory tuning if you can do it.
Quote:
loe said:
frayed, not to nag, but imho moton's or reigers are for street use actually overkill...
to be used in club-racing they are perfect though!
sos, maybe look for a local KW var3 dealer?
Quote:
loe said:
fwiw... I just want share my thoughts about the -20mm vs. PASM...
to start off, I haven't received my 997 (indeed with -20mm )...
I haven't even driven the -20mm yet, only drove the PASM car.
So basically my rambling is purely theoretical
Indeed as frayed stated, some of the best aftermarket suspensions come frome europe (intrax in holland, moton etc etc)
but there is a BIG but...
all the variable dampers are really nice but they operate always outside the range of the springs.
let me explain,
let's say one develops a damper + spring combo for the softest PASM (or any other other variable damper system for that matter), the selection of the match between damper and spring is a thoughfull process... taking into account all variables.
There exists so to speak only one ideal combination for a given purpose.
Now the same goes for the hardest setting... (a spring has a predefined load, so cannot be altered on the fly)
What does this mean? that the manufacturer in the end will have to choose for a compromise spring setting, one that's workable with the two extreme damper settings...
And for all compromises goes that this is not the ideal solution.
Meaning that imho the damper do NOT work optimal with the springs in case of variable dampers. (good to note that a racing team, when changing a damper always changes the springs (if needed, meaning if the range of damping is changed substantially)
this was one of my main reasons for choosing the -20mm combo, since this combo is specifically designed to operate together.
th variable PASM setup will be in any case (hard or soft) a compromise in regards to matching spring settings...
and I do not want (to a certain extent that is any compromises on my fun car.
I hope this is somewhat understandable, but English in not my mothertongue
May 3, 2007 9:51:54 PM
Quote:
Porker said:Quote:
loe said:
fwiw... I just want share my thoughts about the -20mm vs. PASM...
to start off, I haven't received my 997 (indeed with -20mm )...
I haven't even driven the -20mm yet, only drove the PASM car.
So basically my rambling is purely theoretical
Indeed as frayed stated, some of the best aftermarket suspensions come frome europe (intrax in holland, moton etc etc)
but there is a BIG but...
all the variable dampers are really nice but they operate always outside the range of the springs.
let me explain,
let's say one develops a damper + spring combo for the softest PASM (or any other other variable damper system for that matter), the selection of the match between damper and spring is a thoughfull process... taking into account all variables.
There exists so to speak only one ideal combination for a given purpose.
Now the same goes for the hardest setting... (a spring has a predefined load, so cannot be altered on the fly)
What does this mean? that the manufacturer in the end will have to choose for a compromise spring setting, one that's workable with the two extreme damper settings...
And for all compromises goes that this is not the ideal solution.
Meaning that imho the damper do NOT work optimal with the springs in case of variable dampers. (good to note that a racing team, when changing a damper always changes the springs (if needed, meaning if the range of damping is changed substantially)
this was one of my main reasons for choosing the -20mm combo, since this combo is specifically designed to operate together.
th variable PASM setup will be in any case (hard or soft) a compromise in regards to matching spring settings...
and I do not want (to a certain extent that is any compromises on my fun car.
I hope this is somewhat understandable, but English in not my mothertongue
Good to hear you've made the right choice!!!
Enjoy her when she arrives!
May 5, 2007 1:58:37 PM
May 5, 2007 3:45:23 PM
Quote:
loe said:PASM is perfect for people who want a plesant smooth ride combined with an occasional feeling of sportiness. And it's really great a that.
May 6, 2007 11:57:08 AM
May 6, 2007 1:40:59 PM
Quote:
fritz said:
As someone else mentioned, 997 GT3s also have PASM, but are not known to lack feedback. But then, they also have different suspension systems and different suspension geometry settings.
I mention that because I believe I am correct in thinking that the range of front suspension toe-in has been reduced on the 997 C2 and C2S compared to the 996 C2, so that at one end of the tolerance band a car can have 0* toe-in.
Just speculating here, but I could imagine a car with 0* front toe-in having unsatisfactory feed-back and a car with -5' toe-in (or whatever the other end of the tolerance range is) being just fine in this respect.