Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test - Page1

May 26, 2004 3:48:06 PM

sunny: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 53, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 25, 2003

Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Vmax; 0-100 km/h; 0-200 km/h; 0-300 km/h

Ferrari Enzo Ferrari: 355 km/h; 3,6 s; 10,3 s; 26,1 s

Porsche Carrera GT: 334 km/h; 3,8 s; 10,7 s; 34,2 s

Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren: 334 km/h; 3,8 s; 10,7 s; 30,6 s

Lamborghini Murciélago: 330 km/h; 3,7 s; 12,5 s; 37,6 s

Bentley Continental GT: 319 km/h; 5,2 s; 17,2 s; 67,2 s

Aston Martin DB9: 309 km/h; 5,0 s; 16,7 s; 74,6 s

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May 26, 2004 4:26:30 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: sunny

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

The acceleration of the Carrera GT above 200 is a disaster

The Enzo figures confirm this car's ambitions. It is the master of all current super cars.

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May 26, 2004 4:27:46 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

I have to correct myself. The Enzo is THE master, as the McLaren F1 used to do 0-300 in around 28 secs.

So the Enzo is faster than this one as well

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May 26, 2004 4:43:31 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
MKSGR said:
The Enzo figures confirm this car's ambitions. It is the master of all current super cars.

I'll make that conclusion when we get them in a track together, straight-line acceleration is nice but hardly conclusive of a supercar's real ability. Unfortunately we are still waiting for the Enzo since its the only one that doesn't wanna show up at the track...hockenheim, the ring, even Top Gear's little tight track would be nice. I would especially love to see my two favorites together with same driver, the Enzo and CGT

... like the CGT has done against the SLR or against the Zonda, but what we need is the Enzo to show up!... I'll keep on dreamin' right?

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May 26, 2004 4:52:15 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
The Enzo figures confirm this car's ambitions. It is the master of all current super cars.

I make that conclusion when we get them in a track together, staright-line acceleration is nice but hardly conclusive of a supercar's real ability. Unfortunately we are still waiting for the Enzo since its the only one that doesn't wanna show up at the track...hockenheim, the ring, even top gears little track would be nice.

Even if the Enzo was indeed slower on the Nürburgring by 5-10 secs or so. Would you think that this would adjust for the huge gap in acceleration times as stated in this AMS article?

For my taste, the performance gap between Carrera GT and Enzo above 200km/h is far too big to be acceptable. I think the (old!) GT2 did about 42secs for 0-300 in last years test.

Also, from all we know about Enzo test results, I doubt that the Carrera GT is indeed faster on the track.

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May 26, 2004 5:01:18 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

34.2 sec!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to Porsche. 27.0 sec........

I wonder what the explanation will be for that failure!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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May 26, 2004 5:04:19 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
MKSGR said:Even if the Enzo was indeed slower on the Nürburgring by 5-10 secs or so. Would you think that this would adjust for the huge gap in acceleration times as stated in this AMS article?

In my opinion. and this is just my personal preference or view, I look at it the other way around: if with that acceleration difference, the Enzo is still slower than the CGT in a such high-speed track as the ring, it would mean that the CGT's handling is out of this world and unmatched by any supercar to be able to make upo that acceleration handica in the curves. So it would make the CGT even more appealing than it is.

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Also, from all we know about Enzo test results, I doubt that the Carrera GT is indeed faster on the track.

It may very well be, but I can't make that conclusion with so little comparative track perfromance data available, especially on the Enzo's side, thats why want them together in a track to find out!

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May 26, 2004 5:06:43 PM

sunny: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 53, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 25, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I'll make that conclusion when we get them in a track together, straight-line acceleration is nice but hardly conclusive of a supercar's real ability.

Don't know the track, but here are the results:

Carrera GT 53,86 sek
Enzo Ferrari 54,98 sek (+1,12)
Murciélago 55,82 sek (+1,96)
SLR 57,45 sek (+3,59)
Aston Martin 58,82 sek (+4,96)
Bentley 61,66 sek (+7,80)

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May 26, 2004 5:13:02 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

I know its not all about straight line performance but I should at least get what I paid for.

Official stats are as follows:

3.9 - (3.8 sec best tested)
9.9 - (10.2 sec best tested)
27.0 - (34.2 sec )

I am willing to accept a tenth of a second here or there but 7.2 sec!

Absolutely unacceptable.

It could be a deal breaker.

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May 26, 2004 5:25:25 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: sunny

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
sunny said:
Quote:
carlos fromspain said:
I'll make that conclusion when we get them in a track together, straight-line acceleration is nice but hardly conclusive of a supercar's real ability.

Don't know the track, but here are the results:

Carrera GT 53,86 sek
Enzo Ferrari 54,98 sek (+1,12)
Murciélago 55,82 sek (+1,96)
SLR 57,45 sek (+3,59)
Aston Martin 58,82 sek (+4,96)
Bentley 61,66 sek (+7,80)

wow, thanks sunny!

thats one short track though, but hey, thats CGT = 1, Enzo = 0

You think you could scan the article sunny?

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May 26, 2004 5:32:01 PM

sunny: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 53, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 25, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Sorry Carlos. Figures were taken by a internet forum. I don't have the article. Otherwise gladly

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May 26, 2004 5:46:32 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: sunny

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

We will have to wait then, thanks for the times though, very interesting

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May 26, 2004 5:53:28 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

hmmm... maybe I should read the title of the threads more carefully... Highspeed-Nardo-Test

the track is Nardo! too bad because its just a high speed circular track, kind of like a GIANT skipad in Italy, the times are not really meaningful handling wise

But if the Enzo has so much top speed and high speed acceration than the CGT how come the CGT pulls over one second over the Enzo? The CGT has so much more high speed stability?

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May 26, 2004 6:43:59 PM

Bilal: Expert; Loc: Manchester, UK; Posts: 1533, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

This is very interesting...AMS state they get 11.1 out of the SLR for 0-200, and now in the 10's. The 0-300 time is disappointing by 2 seconds, but the CGT even more so. The Bentley and Aston are real slow! The Enzo was as expected, fast as f*** in any category. The Murcie was also slow against AMS's earlier test of 0-300 in 34.2 seconds.

Just for reference, an MKB SL55 with 617bhp, same gearing will do 0-300 as quick as the SLR, perhaps quicker.

<sticks arms out and pulls "what are you gonna do face">

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May 26, 2004 7:21:06 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: sunny

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Really impressive from Lambo I must say.
Was overtaken by a black one last WE in London, what a noise.
Christian, I understand you more and more now!!!

According to AMS, better acceleration than a CGT or SLR for almost a third of the price!

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May 26, 2004 8:03:13 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
Fanch said:
Really impressive from Lambo I must say.
Was overtaken by a black one last WE in London, what a noise.
Christian, I understand you more and more now!!!
According to AMS, better acceleration than a CGT or SLR for almost a third of the price!

I don't see the better acceleration than a CGT or SLR from the Murcielago but maybe I overlooked something?

I always loved the Murci because it looks aggressive and it costs "only" slightly more than a Porsche GT2. But of course the Murcielago isn't "just a third of the CGT's or SLR's price tag". C'mon Francois, set your numbers straight.

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May 26, 2004 8:03:22 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Just read the test. The lap times relate to a 1.6km handling course.

Interesting additional info relates to the breaks (distance in m for 250-0):

Enzo 215
Murcielago 212
SLR 221
GT 191(!)

High-speed handling is described as excellent for both, Enzo and GT

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May 26, 2004 8:09:54 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: CF

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
CF said:
Absolutely unacceptable.

It could be a deal breaker.

Christian, you're way too much into numbers my friend.
I don't trust AMS and AMG since the last Nardo test with that SL55 prototype. Still waiting for an apology from the AMG Owner's Club for the "kickout" and an apology from an AMS editor for taking me as a fool by telling me that that prototype had 500 HP instead of 476 (by that time, the SL55 had a different official power figure which has been corrected afterwards).

Here is my question to AMS: WHO did drive the cars during the acceleration test? Same driver? Back to back or every car seperate? Were engineers of the car companies present during the test to check if everything is alright with the cars? Did AMS do a dyno testing afterwards to look at the wheel power, just out of curiousity?
The Nardo test is pretty brief, pretty unspectacular, pretty vague and actually not every interesting since it fails to tell the reader some important details about the test circumstances.

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May 26, 2004 8:13:24 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Just read the test. The lap times relate to a 1.6km handling course.

So the CGT outhandled the Enzo in the handling course? Any more info about that particular test?

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May 26, 2004 8:20:15 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
carlos fromspain said:

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Just read the test. The lap times relate to a 1.6km handling course.

The AMS test lacks details. I don'get it: they get the most powerful super sports cars available for testing in Nardo and they write up a few pages with even less pictures and this is it? This test should have taken at least 20 pages including at least 20-30 pictures. Or even better, AMS: make a 60 minute video out of it and it will sell great.

So the CGT outhandled the Enzo in the handling course? Any more info about that particular test?

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May 26, 2004 8:26:12 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
RC said:
The AMS test lacks details. I don'get it: they get the most powerful super sports cars available for testing in Nardo and they write up a few pages with even less pictures and this is it? This test should have taken at least 20 pages including at least 20-30 pictures. Or even better, AMS: make a 60 minute video out of it and it will sell great.

Well if the handling test lacks details then you can't make any type conclusion from the test of CGT vs Enzo. I suspecting the "test" was not done by AMS and they just bought it off another magazine, otherwise it would have been much longer and detailed as you say, which is AMS's style anyway, and probably done at Hockenheim and the ring, and by Von Saurma. And I wouldn't trust those irregular acceleration figures either, who knows who launched the CGT, ALL the other car happened to be simple to launch auto's (if the Lambo had e-gear of course).

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May 26, 2004 8:28:51 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Nope, Horst von Saurma is working for Sport Auto, not AMS.
Sport Auto is part of the AMS "magazine" family but this doesn't mean they're married.

AMS doesn't buy tests from other car magazines, unless the mention it. This test has been done by them and this is why I' so surprised not to get more out of it.

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May 26, 2004 8:30:41 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

I see, thanks for the clarification, my mistake

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May 26, 2004 8:33:55 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Man, I thought that the Murci was 200,000 Euros no?
Maybe more than a third then you're right.
I meant acceleration to 100 kmh, but obviously, the others are quicker then.
But still, pretty good value for money

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May 26, 2004 8:39:19 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
Fanch said:
Man, I thought that the Murci was 200,000 Euros no?
Maybe more than a third then you're right.
I meant acceleration to 100 kmh, but obviously, the others are quicker then.
But still, pretty good value for money

The last one I saw at a dealer went to a customer for 220000 Euro but I don't know what the base price is, I have to look it up. Of course the Murcielago is a good deal and I really don't understand why people especially in Europe don't seem to like it. I recently saw a black one...WOOOWWWW.
But if I had the money to be able to afford a CGT...the CGT it would be. No Enzo, no SLR and no Murci.

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May 26, 2004 9:51:13 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

It doesn't matter who drove the cars, the CGT got a good launch and unless the driver had a cup of coffee between the gearchanges or was pulling a trailer there is something seriously wrong with the official data from Porsche..

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May 26, 2004 10:16:34 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59598, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: CF

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Quote:
CF said:
It doesn't matter who drove the cars, the CGT got a good launch and unless the driver had a cup of coffee between the gearchanges or was pulling a trailer there is something seriously wrong with the official data from Porsche..

A driver just has to shift a little bit slowlier than another one and voila, you get a completely different acceleration time.
The shifting points also count very much.
I don't say there wasn't anything wrong about that CGT but drivers can really chance results a lot.

And a last word regarding numbers: the CGT is a super sports car and I'm much more impressed with the track figures than straight line acceleration figures.
If I wanted the TOTAL Autobahn performer, I'd buy myself a Murcielago, push it up to 680 or over 700 HP and even the Enzo would have trouble following you.

It is the whole package which counts but I understand your concerns very well. When a VW Golf outran me with my Cayenne Turbo on the Autobahn up to a speed of over 260 kph, I was pretty frustrated too. But what the hell...I wouldn't drive a 500 HP VW Golf even if I get it as a gift.

I'm not sure you get my point but you shouldn't look too much at the numbers. And if this comforts you: from my personal experience of two consecutive years in South France I can assure you: you can outrun 90% of the super sports cars owners at the Cote d'Azur in your Cayenne Turbo.

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May 26, 2004 10:36:56 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

What if conclusive tests showed that the 997S only had 300 HP and not the claimed 355 HP BUT it was still able to lap the Ring in 7.59.
Would it matter?

Not even once has a magazine been able to do 9.9 sec for the sprint 0-200.

And 27.0 sec from 0-300 is an accomplishment worlds ahead of 34.2 sec!

I can accept a tenth of a second here or there but roughly 7 sec is simply not acceptable whatever the laptime.

It is the total driving experience that counts, which for me includes acceleration numbers that match or is close to what promised.

If I wanted a track car I would have bought something else.

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May 26, 2004 10:54:40 PM

Bilal: Expert; Loc: Manchester, UK; Posts: 1533, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 20, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

What does it matter? You are still going to buy the CGT anyways. Apparently judging by lap times and skipad numbers, the CGT trounces everything else on the road, Porsche fans swear by it so whats all this negativity? So what if it doesn't out accelerate others to 300km/hr, have you seen the acceleration numbers of a Lingenfelter Corvette? So what if it doesn't get faster than 7.37 on the Nring, when a Radical will do it in 7.19?
I really don't get you guys, firstly the CGT rules all, and now cos it lost one of the most "pointless" aspects of a performance car, straight line acceleration, its suddenly I don't want to buy it?

You have driven it, been round a track in it, read magazines and articles about it, tell me is there even ONE negative comment said about this car? You said yourself how words cannot describe it. So whats this change of heart when it cant out accelerate the heavier SLR to 300k's, surely thats not important?

(sarcasm)

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May 26, 2004 11:07:16 PM

arakis: Pilot; Loc: Belgrade,Serbia , Serbia and Montenegro; Posts: 302, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2004; Reply to: Bilal

Re: Highspeed-Nardo-Test

Yeah the enzo was bulit only for streight line hahahahahahaha, Thats whay they have 775 kg of downforce, carbon fiber chasiss, and carbon-composite brackes. Cgt has all that but lacks strait line perf. Enzo is a track car first and formost and this is actualy the first back to back test between them, unless sombody clarifies the test track it is actualy only the acel and bracking figurest that can be tacken in acount, since this is the first test of them bouth

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