Crown

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Hurst said:
Ponzi scheme.

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STRADALE said:

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Hurst said:
Although for joo this is great news: he got the car he wanted and all the exhiliration is proivded!

It still does not solve the issue: Ferrari is gouging the customer base and creating this mythic sense of "brand loyalty" amongst its "existing customers."
Sounds more like a lame cult/ponzi scheme than a true business model. People buy into the mystique and pay up the ass for it.

You begin to understand it when you go to South Beach and see 20 Gallardos per F430. Still, this is a fabricated sensibility and its not good business practice...

Manufactured elitims at its best. Just like going out to any boutique club, any hyped reestaurant etc... manufactured elitism.

You've got it all backwards my friend.

"Ferrari" the company doesn't gouge customers at all, matter of fact they're the ONLY manufacturer that doesn't charge market price for their new vehicles. I'm on my second new Ferrari and after making money on my first car after 2 years of pleasured ownership I could easily sell my 430 for way above the msrp I paid. Not "gouging" customers at all in fact quite the opposite.

Ferrari dealers just like any other car dealer in the entire world are free to charge market price for used/titled/reg cars. Besides the fact this is fair it's the only way in which such low volume dealerships can survive. Although I didn't have to pay over msrp most dealerships will charge a new customer over msrp for their first car w/ them, afterwards they will continue selling cars to repeat customers at msrp, that's how my dealer works w/ the majority of their customers anyway.

For the poster who just bought that Spider he will definitely spend less in depreciation over the next few years than if he had bought a 997 turbo and more than likey if his dealer is like mine will now continue to sell new Ferrari's to him at msrp in which he could eaily make money from & drive the hell out of and trade every couple of years and it will cost him nothing.

The fact that SOME new Ferrari owners choose to pay extra for their first car hurts them way less financially than every single Lambo owner that decides to pay sticker only to be given much less $ for their trade. But the difference is w/ Lambo and every other manufacturer you pay through the nose w/ every single used car trade where the Ferrrai customer can easily get away w/ buying and trading cars paying nothing for the experience or even making money in the process. The people that end up "paying up the ass" is the Porsche owner like myself or the Lambo owner when they want to trade. I can't even describe to you how different it felt when I traded my Challenge Stradale for my 430 and I GOT BACK more money for the CS than I paid. And that was dealing straight w/ the dealer, trading in the CS without worrying about selling to a private party. PLUS I ALSO saved $18k in taxes because in NY you only pay tax on the difference in value from trade to new car. It's in big contrast to the feeling when I've trade Porsche's, trust me. Sure these cars are meant to be driven and enjoyed and 99.9% of the time re-sale isn't what I' thinking about when I'm driving them but let me tell you it's a huge difference everytime you need to get the check book out and make up for the cost of depreciation as w/ my last Porsche which cost 30% of the msrp and now I'm looking at trading my 997 S cab for a turbo cab and probably looking at another 25% depreciation. Yeah here comes the posters that say these cars are meant to depreciate blah,blah,blah but they're probably not the ones trading every year and if they're someone that honestly cares zero about $30k x 2 cars per yr depreciation every year then good for them.

But back to the Ferrrai thing - Some of you guys either just don't get it or don't understand how it works or whatever. But the last thing that happens is repeat Ferrari customers get 'gouged' it's completely the OPPOSITE.

btw: Aren't you the guy I had a bet w/, that if you found a new 430 spider for msrp anywhere in the US I'd buy it for you vs. giving me $1...Where's my buck?

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joo22us said:
As far as the low volume "scam," if they only built 300 Gremlins or Yugos, would they have sold above MSRP and would there have been a 2 year waiting list?

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joo22us said:
As far as F selling at 100K over MSRP, that's the market value, i.e. what people are willing to pay. So you can think of it this way. If Google is trading at $335 but Google comes to you and says since you've been a good, long-term customer, we will sell you 1,000 shares at $220. Google (Ferrari) is actually giving shares away where the lucky receipient can turn around and sell it for a big profit. As far as the low volume "scam," if they only built 300 Gremlins or Yugos, would they have sold above MSRP and would there have been a 2 year waiting list?

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SrfCity said:
Wow, interesting. Peter must have been sloshed as usual.

As for Way, what's a F430 coupe run in OZ? Isn't it double what we pay, making our mark up look pretty good?

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joo22us said:
elysium, I will have to sneak out with my wife's Canon to take pics at dawn before she wakes up. She thinks I'm a car ho and has barely started talking to me again after I bought the F430. I'm sure after she takes a ride in it, which she still refuses to do, that she will change her mind. Hopefully I can figure out this dang camera and how to post the pics...P.S. if I had bought a red/tan F, she would have sent me to divorce court for sure

Quote:
Hurst said:

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STRADALE said:

Quote:
Hurst said:
Although for joo this is great news: he got the car he wanted and all the exhiliration is proivded!

It still does not solve the issue: Ferrari is gouging the customer base and creating this mythic sense of "brand loyalty" amongst its "existing customers."
Sounds more like a lame cult/ponzi scheme than a true business model. People buy into the mystique and pay up the ass for it.

You begin to understand it when you go to South Beach and see 20 Gallardos per F430. Still, this is a fabricated sensibility and its not good business practice...

Manufactured elitims at its best. Just like going out to any boutique club, any hyped reestaurant etc... manufactured elitism.

You've got it all backwards my friend.

"Ferrari" the company doesn't gouge customers at all, matter of fact they're the ONLY manufacturer that doesn't charge market price for their new vehicles. I'm on my second new Ferrari and after making money on my first car after 2 years of pleasured ownership I could easily sell my 430 for way above the msrp I paid. Not "gouging" customers at all in fact quite the opposite.

Ferrari dealers just like any other car dealer in the entire world are free to charge market price for used/titled/reg cars. Besides the fact this is fair it's the only way in which such low volume dealerships can survive. Although I didn't have to pay over msrp most dealerships will charge a new customer over msrp for their first car w/ them, afterwards they will continue selling cars to repeat customers at msrp, that's how my dealer works w/ the majority of their customers anyway.

For the poster who just bought that Spider he will definitely spend less in depreciation over the next few years than if he had bought a 997 turbo and more than likey if his dealer is like mine will now continue to sell new Ferrari's to him at msrp in which he could eaily make money from & drive the hell out of and trade every couple of years and it will cost him nothing.

The fact that SOME new Ferrari owners choose to pay extra for their first car hurts them way less financially than every single Lambo owner that decides to pay sticker only to be given much less $ for their trade. But the difference is w/ Lambo and every other manufacturer you pay through the nose w/ every single used car trade where the Ferrrai customer can easily get away w/ buying and trading cars paying nothing for the experience or even making money in the process. The people that end up "paying up the ass" is the Porsche owner like myself or the Lambo owner when they want to trade. I can't even describe to you how different it felt when I traded my Challenge Stradale for my 430 and I GOT BACK more money for the CS than I paid. And that was dealing straight w/ the dealer, trading in the CS without worrying about selling to a private party. PLUS I ALSO saved $18k in taxes because in NY you only pay tax on the difference in value from trade to new car. It's in big contrast to the feeling when I've trade Porsche's, trust me. Sure these cars are meant to be driven and enjoyed and 99.9% of the time re-sale isn't what I' thinking about when I'm driving them but let me tell you it's a huge difference everytime you need to get the check book out and make up for the cost of depreciation as w/ my last Porsche which cost 30% of the msrp and now I'm looking at trading my 997 S cab for a turbo cab and probably looking at another 25% depreciation. Yeah here comes the posters that say these cars are meant to depreciate blah,blah,blah but they're probably not the ones trading every year and if they're someone that honestly cares zero about $30k x 2 cars per yr depreciation every year then good for them.

But back to the Ferrrai thing - Some of you guys either just don't get it or don't understand how it works or whatever. But the last thing that happens is repeat Ferrari customers get 'gouged' it's completely the OPPOSITE.

btw: Aren't you the guy I had a bet w/, that if you found a new 430 spider for msrp anywhere in the US I'd buy it for you vs. giving me $1...Where's my buck?

Couple of things:

1.) Although you make the valid statement that this is a system of Ferrari dealerships in N. America (perhaps just US?) but not Ferrari the manufacturer, Ferrari the manufacturer is the one that only 60% of the demand of their product to the States for whatever inexplicable reason (global strategy, whatever...). As a result, I think they are somewhat accountable for the economic status.

Furthermore, you assert that it is okay for Dealerships to profer markups on used vehicles. What about new vehicles that are driven minimal miles and offered as "used"? Is that ethical?
Of course it's "ethical". Not ethical is what you see sometimes from other dealers selling demo's or other "minimal miles" cars as new, that doesn't happen at Ferrari dealerships.

2.) I understand the economics of the Ferrari. Based upon the setup given (1. buy MSRP+100k Fxxx, sell 2 years later at MSRP+20k--->80k loss investment ~ same as G/P/MB deprec. + added bonus of "dealer family system"), there is financial incentive for the Ferrari customer if they get into the family. But what of the people that are not extensively involved?
It's like anything else in the world when it comes to finances. Ever been offered the hottest ipo stock? The better the chances of a slam dunk investment wise the harder it is to come by and less people will get a shot. Part of the whole thing is dependant on limited #'s. Like anyting else & everything else that works on supply vs demand. Just capitalism man.

I have a friend who resides in South Beach who had been a longtime exotic purchaser, including various F cars (308, 355, 575, 360 Spider). Not being the type who cares about the smaller things in life (the Fs are part of his enormous stable), he went into a dealership in South Florida (he bought the afformentioned Fs in Washington DC) to look at an F430 and was given rather rude treatment, told not to touch any of the cars. He drove off in his Corniche, not wanting to deal with the situation ever again. What of people in his situation? Does everyone in the "ferrari family" get the same benefits? What happens when there are more "family members" than available allocations? Who gets screwed? The last person to pony up 100k+ MSRP?
Honestly, his loss not their's. You're forever hearing the nose in the air treatment from Ferrrai dealers but truth is you can get that anywhere, it happened to me once at a Porsche dealer but I kept in mind that the salesperson is human & they probably get so damn much tourists that I could see how some sales guys maybe busy or whatever could be cold. Imagine 19.5 out of every 20 people walking into a F-car dealer aren't really potential customers and how it could get tiresome or annoying for some sales folks some of the time especially considering the 430 is sold-out and they really don't have cars to sell. Maybe they figure if some guy walks into a dealer on South Beach and is asking about buying a new 430 he probably should have known about the lack of availability before walking the door? dun no.... Compare that to a Chevy or Ford dealer where the majority of customers walking in the door are probably potential customers and you still can get treated poorly.. But that kinda thing could happen anywhere, at a country club or restaurant etc.etc. For the most part F-car salesman should be held to a higher standard and it would be nice if they treated everyone like their very first customer. Would be nice if everywhere you went everyone was super nice just never going to happen. In addition it wouldn't surprise me if your Corniche driving/Ferrari owner friend doesn't expect a certain amount of extra niceness from people and maybe was somewhat sensative?...............Don't know I haven't had to pay above msrp for my new Ferrari's and never will.

3.) Our bet a few months ago was that if there was a viable listing of an F430 @ MSRP in the US, you would buy it for me. Someone found one on a site that did not specify origin (it was found later to be in Europe) and I could imagine you were sweating bullets
Nope
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I don't mean this as an attack on you Stradale. I love your poingant insight in various threads. I'm just citing my opinion on the system based upon circumstantial evidence of some people I know as well as a general understanding of the economic principles behind it.
I didn't get a bad vibe from your opinion at all, didn't sense it was an "attack" whatsoever & thanks same here.

Enjoy your cars in great health

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joo22us said:
Thanks Crash, SrfCity, JimFlat6, bondmid003, Rossi, Stradale. I am thoroughly enjoying my F430. I can't wait to wake up and can't wait to leave my office so I can relish the 2 miles from my office to home. I can't wait for this weekend. It's "on" baby!

Yes bondmid003, I live and work in BH. So if someone lives near me, let me apologize to you in advance for waking you up with the sweet sound of fury at 5:30AM.

I guess it boils down to this. When I drove my 996 Turbo I lusted after a Ferrari. When I drove the Gallardo, I still lusted after the F430. Even when I got the Phantom (even though it's a completely different car), I still longed for the F430. In fact it became a Sunday ritual for my son and me to stare into the Ferrari dealer window like 2 homeless people looking into a gourmet restaurant. I think I am speaking for most F owners when I say that they don't lust after Gallardos or Turbos when they are driving a F430.

As far as F selling at 100K over MSRP, that's the market value, i.e. what people are willing to pay. So you can think of it this way. If Google is trading at $335 but Google comes to you and says since you've been a good, long-term customer, we will sell you 1,000 shares at $220. Google (Ferrari) is actually giving shares away where the lucky receipient can turn around and sell it for a big profit. As far as the low volume "scam," if they only built 300 Gremlins or Yugos, would they have sold above MSRP and would there have been a 2 year waiting list?

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joo22us said:
I've had 996 Turbo and 05 Gallardo. Those cars are awesome. But I honestly never had the chest expanding, hair growing, waist shrinking, genital enlarging, height increasing feeling I get with the F430.

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joo22us said:
elysium, I will have to sneak out with my wife's Canon to take pics at dawn before she wakes up. She thinks I'm a car ho and has barely started talking to me again after I bought the F430. I'm sure after she takes a ride in it, which she still refuses to do, that she will change her mind. Hopefully I can figure out this dang camera and how to post the pics...P.S. if I had bought a red/tan F, she would have sent me to divorce court for sure

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joo22us said:
Tony2006, Gallardo's a very fun car but it only seems to really come alive at 5000-6000rpm and at high speeds. The handling is great but the F430 for some reason just instills in me more confidence and feedback esp. when I really push the car. Gallardo just doesn't seem to send the same senses to my fingertips. Also Gallardo's E-diff is much rougher than the 430's F1. Some people prefer Gallardo's appearance but personally except for the Enzo I can't think of another car I'd rather have than F430 Spider. Even my car grinch wife is finally admitting that with the top down she hasn't seen a more pleasing, sexier car out there. The final deal sealer is that sweet exhaust note. It is priceless and pure joy.

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Crash said:

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traxx said:

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Crash said:
Luckily enough, there are no such problems in Western Europe.

Really???
Cetainly here in the UK you arn't going to be able to walk into a dealer and get a new car to your spec without having a good relationship with them.
Having said that the premium you will pay here for a new 599 is only ~ $60,000 so nothing like the US market

I said Europe, not an island off Europe .
Right now, I can walk into the dealer showroom, order a Ferrari and it will be here in 5-6 months, with no markup. There seems to be the same or a similar situation in most other european countries.

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Ziggy said:

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Crash said:

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traxx said:

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Crash said:
Luckily enough, there are no such problems in Western Europe.

Really???
Cetainly here in the UK you arn't going to be able to walk into a dealer and get a new car to your spec without having a good relationship with them.
Having said that the premium you will pay here for a new 599 is only ~ $60,000 so nothing like the US market

I said Europe, not an island off Europe .
Right now, I can walk into the dealer showroom, order a Ferrari and it will be here in 5-6 months, with no markup. There seems to be the same or a similar situation in most other european countries.

Crash,

Rennteam-moderator Fanch has ordered a 599 in France and he has to wait for more or less 18 months if I am not mistaken.

About the same story with MKSGR in Germany.

France, UK and Germany are 3 major European countries as far as I know.

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Moogle said:
If a driving minded individual who wants a car for him/herself as a car and not an investment, without having to develop a relationship with a dealer/buy used, they can probably circumvent the 'system' by buying overseas and either converting to US spec or using the (temporary) tourist pass which allows up to one year of driving without conversion.

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Moogle said:
It's really terrible that the US market is such hostile territory, but unfortunately, thats how it works.

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RC said:

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Moogle said:
It's really terrible that the US market is such hostile territory, but unfortunately, thats how it works.

In Germany, if you order a new Ferrari F430 or F599 and you want to sell it for a profit when the car arrives, you can get in big trouble with Ferrari, they seem to have some sort of a "blacklist". Once your name is on that list, you never get a new car again from them. Not sure if true but it seems to be consistent with the stories I heard.

A new 599 goes for at least 50000 Euro over list right now but if you ever want to buy a Ferrari again, you need to be careful if you want to sell it for profit.

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Moogle said:
It's really terrible that the US market is such hostile territory, but unfortunately, thats how it works.

Without the exclusivity provided by the limited production/price and furthermore amplified by the speculatory prices, Ferrari would simply not be as desirable as it is now, and the 'mystique' would be shattered.

If a driving minded individual who wants a car for him/herself as a car and not an investment, without having to develop a relationship with a dealer/buy used, they can probably circumvent the 'system' by buying overseas and either converting to US spec or using the (temporary) tourist pass which allows up to one year of driving without conversion.