Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS - Page2

May 24, 2004 5:38:53 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:

"I shall ignore the price difference. And I shall also ignore my prejudices. You see, I think a Ferrari is scaled down version of... ...God. And a Porsche 911, a jumped up Volkswagon Beetle. All I'm interested in here is which is the best piece of engineering."

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May 24, 2004 6:27:24 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

yep, that minor $50k lb diff is neglible :-) typical ferrari matching performance for a fraction of the dough from porsche.

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May 24, 2004 8:03:23 PM

Tim: Pilot; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 458, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
rossi said:
Quote:

"I shall ignore the price difference. And I shall also ignore my prejudices. You see, I think a Ferrari is scaled down version of... ...God. And a Porsche 911, a jumped up Volkswagon Beetle. All I'm interested in here is which is the best piece of engineering."

The whole camparison evidently had a numbing effect on his mind as he couldn't even remember his own criteria during the final evaluation.
If a less powerful car without any electronic gadgets can still deliver a performance on par with the 360, now what's the better piece of engineering?

But honestly I didn't expect a warm welcome for the beefed up Bettle from a "Brit".

RG TL

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May 24, 2004 11:34:16 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

If your sole criteria is track performance, then I'm affraid they're both somewhat over priced Ben. So really, much of the same rationalization you use to buy certain cars would exist if you prefered the 360CS over the RS. Translation: Nick wouldn't give a damn if the RS was 2 seconds a lap quicker.

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May 24, 2004 11:46:44 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

The most important thing of the programme are the lap times at the end of the report:

360 CS: 1.22,3
GT3RS: 1.22,3

With exactly the same time both cars are quicker than the Murcielago (1.23,7) , the Zonda (1.23,8) and the Koeniggsegg (1.23,9) and remarkably quicker than the Gallardo (1.25,8)!

Very impressive!

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May 25, 2004 5:58:55 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
ben, lj said:
yep, that minor $50k lb diff is neglible :-) typical ferrari matching performance for a fraction of the dough from porsche.

Hmnn, shall we bring in the Vette Z06, Viper and 350Z into this discussion?

The Vette will out perform the TT which costs about $70,000 more.

The 350Z will perform on par if not better than the 911 which costs $30,000 more.

The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

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May 25, 2004 6:20:47 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
nberry said:The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

Its just too comical, I'm not even going to comment on this one

EDIT: holy cow, I missed this little pearl of wisdom in the post!

Quote:
the 350Z will perform on par if not better than the 911

Now its getting worrisome, remeber that program called "the Twilight Zone"?

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May 25, 2004 6:31:28 PM

Captain Bady: Veteran; Loc: London; Posts: 888, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
yep, that minor $50k lb diff is neglible :-) typical ferrari matching performance for a fraction of the dough from porsche.

Hmnn, shall we bring in the Vette Z06, Viper and 350Z into this discussion?

The Vette will out perform the TT which costs about $70,000 more.

The 350Z will perform on par if not better than the 911 which costs $30,000 more.

The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

buahahahahahahaahahahahahaha
Sorry Nberry, but hope you are joking !

or may be you are just saying STRAIGHT LINE performance?

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May 25, 2004 7:21:50 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

A couple of US car magazine tested the 350Z, the 911 and one other car I cannot recall.. The 350Z performance was on par with the 911 and in over all competition the 350Z won the contest by a rather large margin.

Yes in straight line performance the Viper is close to the CGT. It is rumored that the Viper will be getting a more powerful engine in the near future.

The point of the discussion is if you going to only focus in on performance in selecting cars you will not like the results. Porsche is not a staight line car but even if you want to compare it to the new Lotus Elise, which is substantially cheaper but performs as good if not better on a track, Porsche loses.

There are more to cars than what they do around a silly ring or drag strip. Tell you European's drive their cars with a sticker in the window giving ring times or whatever other times matter to them?

That is why Ferrari has been so popular. It is the total driving experience.

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May 25, 2004 7:56:57 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
nberry said:
The Vette will out perform the TT which costs about $70,000 more.

The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

Very funny

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May 25, 2004 7:59:41 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Captain Bady

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
Captain Bady said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
yep, that minor $50k lb diff is neglible :-) typical ferrari matching performance for a fraction of the dough from porsche.

Hmnn, shall we bring in the Vette Z06, Viper and 350Z into this discussion?

The Vette will out perform the TT which costs about $70,000 more.

The 350Z will perform on par if not better than the 911 which costs $30,000 more.

The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

buahahahahahahaahahahahahaha
Sorry Nberry, but hope you are joking !

or may be you are just saying STRAIGHT LINE performance?

I am wrong. The Viper costing $100,000 will OUTPERFORM the CGT. Have a look

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May 25, 2004 8:00:43 PM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

I have to agree with Nick's overall point, if not his specific examples. You can buy a (Lotus) Caterham R500 for $50k that keeps up with a Carrera GT. Performance cannot be the sole criterion...the marginal benefit just isn't there.

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May 25, 2004 8:09:33 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Captain Bady

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
Captain Bady said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
yep, that minor $50k lb diff is neglible :-) typical ferrari matching performance for a fraction of the dough from porsche.

Hmnn, shall we bring in the Vette Z06, Viper and 350Z into this discussion?

The Vette will out perform the TT which costs about $70,000 more.

The 350Z will perform on par if not better than the 911 which costs $30,000 more.

The Viper is close in overall performance to the Porsche CGT which costs about $375,000 more.

buahahahahahahaahahahahahaha
Sorry Nberry, but hope you are joking !

or may be you are just saying STRAIGHT LINE performance?

I am wrong. The Viper costing $109,000 will closely perform to the the CGT. Have a look:
Viper RS 1700 road legal convertible. Price 109,000. hp 690

0-60 3.3
0-100 7.2
0-140 13.5
Standing 1/4 mile 11.4@128mph

CGT
0-60 3.5
0-100 6.8
Standing 1/4 mile 11.2@132

Still want to laugh or cry?

I submit the difference will be in the driver. So is the CGT worth 340,000 more? If your stuck on performance hell no. But factor in other considerations maybe it is.

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May 25, 2004 8:16:10 PM

Captain Bady: Veteran; Loc: London; Posts: 888, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Ok, so we are talking about straight line performance

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May 25, 2004 8:29:57 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Captain Bady

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

had a great time spanking a viper in my measely 996 cab (before supercharger even) on one of our mountain drives. not only could he not even think about keeping up while staying in his lane (was having such a difficult time he was having to swing out into the oncoming lane in the twisties to hold the road), but his brakes were near useless in no time. i'm sure he can tell you how miserably hot and uncomfortable it was in there while he was getting schooled. the viper is a hunk o schit and all you have to do is drive one of the crap buckets to see for yourself.

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May 25, 2004 8:39:52 PM

CF: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Florida , United States; Posts: 1113, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 30, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Why do we even have this conversation, it's useless because Nick doesn't value a car based on it's overall driving dynamic performance.

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May 25, 2004 8:54:51 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
nberry said:
A couple of US car magazine tested the 350Z, the 911 and one other car I cannot recall.. The 350Z performance was on par with the 911 and in over all competition the 350Z won the contest by a rather large margin.

Yes in straight line performance the Viper is close to the CGT. It is rumored that the Viper will be getting a more powerful engine in the near future.

The point of the discussion is if you going to only focus in on performance in selecting cars you will not like the results. Porsche is not a staight line car but even if you want to compare it to the new Lotus Elise, which is substantially cheaper but performs as good if not better on a track, Porsche loses.

There are more to cars than what they do around a silly ring or drag strip. Tell you European's drive their cars with a sticker in the window giving ring times or whatever other times matter to them?

That is why Ferrari has been so popular. It is the total driving experience.

Nick,
My mistake, I forgot "performance" to you means straight line acceleration, but to me it means lap times ariound a track or backroad, handling, curve speed, endourance on hard driving, braking capabilities, acceleration, etc. If you take that into account you can see my comparison list varies from yours.

Its a more comprehensive concept to me highly related to the other concept you mentioned, "driving experience", which is then the result of that handling, steering feedback, driving characteristics, braking stability, etc.

That Nick, is actually the main "driving experience" concept of why Ferrari have been so popular, though I admit also that some people who buy Ferrari the driving experience is only about the image instead (and Porsche but to a lesser degree) and waste such cars using them for weekend cruisin' only which has nothing to do with my definition of driving experience or performance

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May 25, 2004 9:31:13 PM

Captain Bady: Veteran; Loc: London; Posts: 888, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2003; Reply to: CF

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
CF said:
Why do we even have this conversation, it's useless because Nick doesn't value a car based on it's overall driving dynamic performance.

CF, you have to try and understand Americans , they have big roads and only straight lines....so they don't need driving dynamic performance. Isn't it nberry?

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May 25, 2004 9:58:53 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Captain Bady

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
Captain Bady said:
Quote:
CF said:
Why do we even have this conversation, it's useless because Nick doesn't value a car based on it's overall driving dynamic performance.

CF, you have to try and understand Americans , they have big roads and only straight lines....so they don't need driving dynamic performance. Isn't it nberry?

To some extent you are correct. I believe people are putting their head into the sand when they talk about performance as being something other than straight line. Every car magazine use the numbers I quoted above. CF was ready to cancel his order because the 1/4 mile perf. of the CGT was not was as advertised.

Driving a car on curved roads has more to do with the driver than the car assuming they are reasonably close in performance. Ben I suspect if you were driving the Viper it would run circles around your Cab. That is why formula 1 driver are paid millions.

One of these days you gentlemen will learn there is more to a car than strict performance number. In my book it all has to do with the total driving experience which can involve a number of factors other than perf.

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May 25, 2004 10:13:10 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
nberry said:One of these days you gentlemen will learn there is more to a car than strict performance number.

Teach us Nick! we are willing to learn!

Quote:
nberry said: In my book it all has to do with the total driving experience which can involve a number of factors other than perf.

Maybe I'll be more receptive of those factors other than performance when I reach the mid-life crisis

but will I also have to give up riding openclass inline-4's and "cruise" on Harleys instead?

... but I can't do this on Harleys!

(2MB) http://members.rennlist.com/raptor/GSX-R1000%20short%20takes.wmv

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May 25, 2004 11:06:39 PM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: Captain Bady

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
Captain Bady said:
Quote:
CF said:
Why do we even have this conversation, it's useless because Nick doesn't value a car based on it's overall driving dynamic performance.

CF, you have to try and understand Americans , they have big roads and only straight lines....so they don't need driving dynamic performance. Isn't it nberry?

Hey!, thats not true of all americans!

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May 26, 2004 3:24:15 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

"Ben I suspect if you were driving the Viper it would run circles around your Cab."

not going to happen in that mountain setting. the brakes are just crud.

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May 26, 2004 4:53:11 AM

Justin: Veteran; Loc: San Diego, CA, USA; Posts: 979, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 12, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Furthermore, in a mountain setting, power contributes the least towards driving satisfaction and speed (downhill) than the three main elements of a sports car.

Those are:
- weight, or lack thereof
- good tires
- good brakes

The Viper lacks two out of three of these elements.

- J

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May 26, 2004 9:35:28 AM

Captain Bady: Veteran; Loc: London; Posts: 888, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
Scuderia said:
Hey!, thats not true of all americans!

isn't it?

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May 26, 2004 2:06:36 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
ben, lj said:
"Ben I suspect if you were driving the Viper it would run circles around your Cab."

not going to happen in that mountain setting. the brakes are just crud.

Viper competition coupe-- 70 mph -0 134 feet.
CGT 70 mph-0 145 feet

I know you all will tell me the Viper brakes do not last and are basically crap. However, the Viper and Vettes have been winning just about every race venue including endurance races. Porsche is usually relegated to a slower class because it cannot compete with the big boys.

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May 26, 2004 2:12:02 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

"However, the Viper and Vettes have been winning just about every race venue including endurance races."

oh sure, and we know those are the stock cars you see out on our mountain drives (bringing up the rear - with the ferrari poseurs).

btw, the competition coupe is not even street legal so i am not sure what the point was of bringing in the braking stats of their racing car to refute claims their street car has schitty brakes.

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May 26, 2004 2:32:49 PM

Bad TT: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Ben
I had a Comp Coupe awesome in EVERY way. The brakes on vipers after 2001 are very good. Prior to that a joke!

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May 26, 2004 3:33:10 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Bad TT

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

hey wayne.

i didn't think they even came out with ABS until the SR10 (in 2003).

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May 26, 2004 10:36:23 PM

Bad TT: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 185, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

nope 2001

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May 26, 2004 11:14:03 PM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Video: 360 CS vs GT3 RS

Quote:
ben, lj said:
i didn't think they even came out with ABS until the SR10 (in
2003).

Call me a fool, but Im one of those drivers that doesn't think ABS is that great....

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