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Apr 17, 2007 4:54:30 PM
- Grant
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- Loc: Denver, CO , United States
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
95jersey said:
This is the BEST site I have come accross
http://www.race-cars.com/
WHOA! WHOA! WOW!!
Totally cool. I wont be talking to GF tonight!....Me got cars to browse! 
Thanks.
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
95jersey said:
Also, a couple quick points from someone with about 100 track days under his belt in a variety of cars over several years.
In the end, whether you decide to pick a street car or a true race car, are you willing to lose all your money in case you crash it? Put maintenance and running costs aside for a moment...
With a race car, insurance is expensive and hard to find, especially on something historic. And insurance will not cover you in wheel to wheel racing...you are on your own. If you plan to do only track days, then you can get track day insurance, but it is still expensive and the deductibles are VERY high (like $5000-$10,000k).
The advantage for using a street car for track days are two:
1) Insurance - You can get normal, relatively cheap street insurance that will cover high speed driving schools as long as they are not timed or there are no winners/losers. Most insurance companies will cover you (make sure) and your premiums are no more than simple street insurance with normal deductables.
2) Warranty...this is PRICELESS for track days. What happens if you blow the motor, rear, trans...have leaks, electronic problems. Most track day cars (radical, Atom) don't come with warranties. The question is not if you will break something, it is WHEN. So as long as you don't heavily modify the car, your warranty should cover the problems. Just take out your harness before you go in for warranty work.
If you can afford to lose $25k and are not worried about maintenance cost, you still need to choose a car that compliments your technical ability. You don't want to buy some very complicated sports racer with pushrod suspension, a complex sequential transmission, and quad carburated Hayabusa motor that need maintenance/adjustments every step of the way. You will be wrenching more than driving.
So, in my advice your choice should be based on your technical ability to maintain/prepare the car, your threshold to walk away after a crash and lose all your money, and MOST importantly SAFETY. Most track cars never had to pass ANY safety test or crash tests. Keep this in mind!
So, for me personally, after 100 track days and driving many types of cars, with a decent purse, after going back and forth several times, I have decided that a fast street car under warranty, with no mods (except safety), is the best way to go. I get a well engineered vehicle with crash/crumple zones, airbags, a warranty, cheap street insurance, and I can drive the car to and from the track all day long. I don't need to worry about maintaining complex suspension or sequential transmissions.
For this I have choosen and always did a Corvette, simply becuase it is so fast for the price, but is a factory warrantied car that any Chevy dealer in 1000 towns can work on.
So, when looking at buying a track car, don't just use your heart, use your brain and buy something you can REALLY live with.
Thanks buddy. That makes a whole lotta sense.
My heart says purebread trackcar, but my brain says stick with an Elise/Speedster. And ure right aboutt insurance etc.
Im not really in a financial position where dumping 25K by overshooting a corner is a viable option for me. So thanks for the input!
Apr 17, 2007 7:44:35 PM
- pierre
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- Loc: there , Switzerland
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- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
The Cup Clios are really fast (and I'm sure they are fun to drive also), though you might ask some owners about reliability/maintenance costs etc.
Got a brand new Clio Cup III 2 months ago!
So far, I've only driven it a little bit on open roads (first drive, couldn't wait, almost legally...) and a few laps on the track in Bresse/F. The car is now at the N'ring, getting prepared and fine-tuned for the next VLN race in 10 days.
So not much first hand experience yet, but I know 2 other similar cars that have been doing last year's VLN season with absolutely no reliability issues. Besides, spare parts are said to be quite cheap and maintenance easy.
But of course, this is a track-only toy. Not really what Dr Phil is looking for...
Apr 17, 2007 8:05:36 PM
- function_analysi
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- Loc: Jeddah, Athens , Greece
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
95jersey said:
2) Warranty...this is PRICELESS for track days. What happens if you blow the motor, rear, trans...have leaks, electronic problems. Most track day cars (radical, Atom) don't come with warranties. The question is not if you will break something, it is WHEN. So as long as you don't heavily modify the car, your warranty should cover the problems. Just take out your harness before you go in for warranty work.
btw: You do get a 30h warranty for the engine/tranny on a radical. If you buy a Porsche 997 GT3 Cup you won't get any warranty. One should also take into account that warranty in Europe is somewhat different to the US.
Cheers
Thomas
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Before buying any street type race car,at least get a demo drive or take a drivers clinic in a open wheeler. They are frknnn awesome to drive. You won't regret it.
Hehehe...so I just need to pick a really spectacular way of totalling the Elise - if I only have ONE shot at it?
What about the Opel Speedster? Same story? It's only 50 kg heavier, but perhaps reinforced somehow?
An old 911...sure - but wont that cost me $$$ to get a light and fast version?
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
pierre said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
The Cup Clios are really fast (and I'm sure they are fun to drive also), though you might ask some owners about reliability/maintenance costs etc.
Got a brand new Clio Cup III 2 months ago!
So far, I've only driven it a little bit on open roads (first drive, couldn't wait, almost legally...) and a few laps on the track in Bresse/F. The car is now at the N'ring, getting prepared and fine-tuned for the next VLN race in 10 days.
So not much first hand experience yet, but I know 2 other similar cars that have been doing last year's VLN season with absolutely no reliability issues. Besides, spare parts are said to be quite cheap and maintenance easy.
But of course, this is a track-only toy. Not really what Dr Phil is looking for...
Pierre: How much will a Renault like yours cost?
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Lasse, you dont even need a spectacular accident in a Elise
to get a $$$$ bill. Just run one wheel hard into a concrete curb to discover that the suspension and the chassis are designed to deform and self destruct. Nice but one smack and your checkbook takes a huge dent also. Opel would be the same thing.
Older 911 wise I dont know EU race car prices. But in the US, you can find a decent 911 2.7 race car for around 25K. Im not talking a original '73 RS, but a track only clone built from a 75-76-77-78 etc.. They are safe as houses and simple to fix.
to get a $$$$ bill. Just run one wheel hard into a concrete curb to discover that the suspension and the chassis are designed to deform and self destruct. Nice but one smack and your checkbook takes a huge dent also. Opel would be the same thing.
Older 911 wise I dont know EU race car prices. But in the US, you can find a decent 911 2.7 race car for around 25K. Im not talking a original '73 RS, but a track only clone built from a 75-76-77-78 etc.. They are safe as houses and simple to fix.
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
Pierre: How much will a Renault like yours cost?
A new one is about EUR 29-33k plus taxes. Details here: http://www.renault-sport.fr/en/circuit/new_clio_cup/fichetechnique.php
If that stretches your budget too much, I'm sure you can get the previous model for much cheaper. And if buying in Germany is an option, you can contact Uwe from Ring-Racing (www.ring-racing.de). He could most probably find you either a pure track-car or something sharp enough for the track but still road-legal.
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
Looking for something to use exclusively on the track - primarily trackday use.
Therefore it has to be sharp, direct, responsive, light, fast, easy and affordable to maintain, low consumption of tires/fuel.
Budget around 25.000 Euro .
I am looking at
* Lotus Elise (preferably new model)
* Lotus 7
* Caterham
* Donkervoort (probably way too expensive)
* Renault spider
* Opel Speedster
Right now I am leaning towards an Elise or Opel Speedster.
Any input or other suggestions would be appreciated
Has to be left-hand drive, so I wont buy a British car
Ultima???
For a engine, get the new L92 engine from GM and have it built to rev. There are tons of Tuner Shops that specilize in Chevy and they can get you a reliable 550 to 600 RWHP for a track only toy, and that is a 10k engine that will last you years of track abuse with no problems. (probably a lot less actually)
That should give a good chassis to build on for any future hp upgrades.
For engine options checkout LS1Tech.com .
Apr 18, 2007 11:38:19 AM
- easy_rider911
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- Reply to: Grant
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Ariel Atom?
Radical?
Those are way more than his budget of 25k Euros, no?
I would go with a used Caterham or a used 911 track car with all the mods already done.
You can buy them in 'kit' form, build them yourself and they cost a fair bit less! I don't know the exact details though...
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
95jersey said:
This is the BEST site I have come accross
http://www.race-cars.com/
WHOA! WHOA! WOW!!
You might find some cars here too.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/index.php
Cheers
Thomas
Apr 18, 2007 4:48:31 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
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- Reply to: Dr. Phil
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Dr. Phil said:Quote:
95jersey said:
This is the BEST site I have come accross
http://www.race-cars.com/
WHOA! WHOA! WOW!!
LoL
Did you spot Schumi's 1994 Benneton for a mere 850k USD Hope they repaired it after the crash in the Adelaide final 
Apr 18, 2007 10:28:45 PM
- Byron
- Senior
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- Loc: Costa Brava, Spain
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Ariel Atom?
Radical?
Those are way more than his budget of 25k Euros, no?
I would go with a used Caterham or a used 911 track car with all the mods already done.
You can buy them in 'kit' form, build them yourself and they cost a fair bit less! I don't know the exact details though...
For details about the Ultima, please check
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/
Or the Forum of owners (the majority built their cars, and the forum is specialy technical oriented):
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?f=20&h=0
With the Ultima, many pockets can fit a project. Even the "cheapest" gives as a result an extremely fast car. You can go from 300 HP (with a very reasonable budget) to 720 HP (If you build it yourself -average time: 12 months, but this can be largely shotened-, madly inexpensive. If it's factory built, arround 100K euro, (as far as I remember), with the "big" engine -Chevy V8 - not expensive and easy to mantain...And with an impressive performance (if talking about the top configuration, faster than a Veyron....but considering the "lowest", faster than a GT3.....And road legal!!)
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
Byron said:
For details about the Ultima, please check
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/
Or the Forum of owners (the majority built their cars, and the forum is specialy technical oriented):
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?f=20&h=0
With the Ultima, many pockets can fit a project. Even the "cheapest" gives as a result an extremely fast car. You can go from 300 HP (with a very reasonable budget) to 720 HP (If you build it yourself -average time: 12 months, but this can be largely shotened-, madly inexpensive. If it's factory built, arround 100K euro, (as far as I remember), with the "big" engine -Chevy V8 - not expensive and easy to mantain...And with an impressive performance (if talking about the top configuration, faster than a Veyron....but considering the "lowest", faster than a GT3.....And road legal!!)
Holy crap! I am sold!
What an incredible car, an absolute monster! - and the price is also human!
Me wants! ME WANTS! NOW!
Seriously, this is something I really wanna get more info on as it pretty much answers most of my prayers. Problem may be gettingt it roadlegal in Denmark and Germany..?
Apr 19, 2007 11:08:33 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
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- Reply to: Dr. Phil
Apr 20, 2007 12:21:26 PM
- BC
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- Loc: Cape Town , South Africa
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- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
Quote:
BC911 said:
Yeah, I dont think it will be a problem to get to drive it on the street... Performance is amazing! Heres a guy who races one over here and is beating cars like a 996 GT2RSR (i think thats the one). Faster than a Veyron!? WOW
Not in top speed (231 mph), but yes in the 0-60, 0-60-0, 0-100 mph figures, and 100-0 braking.
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/records/part6.html
Re: Need a track tool - but which one?
I have been in one at Watkins Glen and it was VERY fast, but VERY edgy. It had a 400hp LS1 motor, so it wasn't even their LS6 or big block version. Truly not a car for the meak. If you aren't 110% in this car, you will get seriously hurt. There was no traction control and no ABS on the car I was in, and it was pretty scary. I am not being negative, but this car is for highly skilled drivers only. That same day I went for a ride, the guy crashed it into a barrier and mashed the left front end. I am glad I wasn't in there.
For anyone but a very experienced driver, I recommend the Lotus, it is just so easy to drive fast and your not doing 170mph in 3rd gear.
For anyone but a very experienced driver, I recommend the Lotus, it is just so easy to drive fast and your not doing 170mph in 3rd gear.
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