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    13-mag-2004 19.15.24

    RCA
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    Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Due to problems with the SBC brake system, Mercedes recalls worldwide 600000(!) E-class and SL-class models.
    Recalled are SL-class models starting with Oct. 2001 production and E-class models starting with March 2002 and E-class T models starting with March 2003.

    According to Mercedes there is no danger of a complete brake failure because there is a hydraulic back-up system.

    13-mag-2004 19.45.01

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I bet that will leave a mark on MB's score in next years JD Powers survey

    13-mag-2004 19.45.01

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I bet that will leave a mark on MB's score in next years JD Powers survey

    13-mag-2004 21.16.34

    Rossi
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    In risposta a: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

    13-mag-2004 21.16.34

    Rossi
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    In risposta a: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

    13-mag-2004 22.05.03

    RCA
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    In risposta a: Rossi

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    rossi said:
    Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...



    The gimmicks are not the problem. But they should add them only if they really work flawlessly.
    My COMAND APS Nav System had several software updates before it started working how it should work.
    Even Porsche has 3(!) different versions of the Nav software on the Cayenne.
    If the engine/suspension manufacturers would work at the same level as the programmers, the cars would have serious problems. Software is really a problem in today's world.
    Best example: Linux. They talk about the benefits of open source, they condamn Windows but the reality is: you have security updates and bugfixes for Linux too almost every week.

    Car companies outsource a lot of the software development because of the benefits. But in exchange, they get a lot of bugs and problems too. I don't know how they could do better because building cars without electronics at all isn't possible anymore. And I really love gimmicks on a car but they should work.

    13-mag-2004 22.05.03

    RCA
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    In risposta a: Rossi

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    rossi said:
    Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...



    The gimmicks are not the problem. But they should add them only if they really work flawlessly.
    My COMAND APS Nav System had several software updates before it started working how it should work.
    Even Porsche has 3(!) different versions of the Nav software on the Cayenne.
    If the engine/suspension manufacturers would work at the same level as the programmers, the cars would have serious problems. Software is really a problem in today's world.
    Best example: Linux. They talk about the benefits of open source, they condamn Windows but the reality is: you have security updates and bugfixes for Linux too almost every week.

    Car companies outsource a lot of the software development because of the benefits. But in exchange, they get a lot of bugs and problems too. I don't know how they could do better because building cars without electronics at all isn't possible anymore. And I really love gimmicks on a car but they should work.

    14-mag-2004 1.19.19

    brunner
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

    14-mag-2004 1.19.19

    brunner
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

    14-mag-2004 7.31.31

    RCA
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    In risposta a: brunner

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.



    Yes and no. Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?
    I think quality control doesn't work as it should work and maybe some people at some car companies don't have a clue what a certain product (COMAND APS for example) is all about. "Give the customer a nice toy with a nice screen and some nice buttons and we figure out the bugs later...".
    As sad this might sound, it seems to be a fact all over the car industry.

    14-mag-2004 7.31.31

    RCA
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    In risposta a: brunner

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.



    Yes and no. Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?
    I think quality control doesn't work as it should work and maybe some people at some car companies don't have a clue what a certain product (COMAND APS for example) is all about. "Give the customer a nice toy with a nice screen and some nice buttons and we figure out the bugs later...".
    As sad this might sound, it seems to be a fact all over the car industry.

    14-mag-2004 22.56.22

    Scuderia
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I dont think the problem (by problem I am refering to car electrial problems in general) really lies within intergrating the two technologies. Look at anti-lock-brakes (ABS). Its a technology that has been around for many many years, yet it still isn't annywhere nearly as effective as an experienced driver's foot.

    14-mag-2004 22.56.22

    Scuderia
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    In risposta a: RCA

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I dont think the problem (by problem I am refering to car electrial problems in general) really lies within intergrating the two technologies. Look at anti-lock-brakes (ABS). Its a technology that has been around for many many years, yet it still isn't annywhere nearly as effective as an experienced driver's foot.

    15-mag-2004 3.52.49

    brunner
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?


    Maybe they modified the software just before launch, and thought 'hey, that's a minor update, no point in running tests again'. BZZZT! wrong
    Hmmm... this is still a quality control issue

    15-mag-2004 3.52.49

    brunner
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?


    Maybe they modified the software just before launch, and thought 'hey, that's a minor update, no point in running tests again'. BZZZT! wrong
    Hmmm... this is still a quality control issue

    15-mag-2004 12.50.15

    Texas911
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I'm sorry but ABS can out do even the most experienced driver. Can a driver control 4 wheels indepedently and pump each one at up to 30 times a second?

    15-mag-2004 12.50.15

    Texas911
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    I'm sorry but ABS can out do even the most experienced driver. Can a driver control 4 wheels indepedently and pump each one at up to 30 times a second?

    16-mag-2004 4.48.53

    Scuderia
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    In risposta a: Texas911

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    An experienced driver cannot press the pedal 30 times a second, but he also doesnt over correct during turns, and knows exactly when the traction is about to break, wheras most abs systems (and every one i have ever experienced) has been far too "safe", keeping the driver from extracting the maximum performance from the vehicle.

    Don't get me wrong, for perhaps 98% of all drivers, abs is superior to non-computer assisted breaking, but for that 2%, it ruins the driving experience.

    About the independant wheel breaking, for straight numbers (70-0 breaking for instance) then yes, Im sure that the abs system will out perform the non-abs system, but when going around turns, or trying to controll a drift, I personally find the anti-lock system distracting.

    Abs by definition is not a performance enhancing measure, it is a corrective measure, preventing a poor driver, or a driver in difficult circumstances (rain, sleet, ice, animals crossing the road, etc.) from locking the wheels. (again dont get me wrong, I, and im sure everyone else here has locked the wheels at least once)

    16-mag-2004 4.48.53

    Scuderia
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    In risposta a: Texas911

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    An experienced driver cannot press the pedal 30 times a second, but he also doesnt over correct during turns, and knows exactly when the traction is about to break, wheras most abs systems (and every one i have ever experienced) has been far too "safe", keeping the driver from extracting the maximum performance from the vehicle.

    Don't get me wrong, for perhaps 98% of all drivers, abs is superior to non-computer assisted breaking, but for that 2%, it ruins the driving experience.

    About the independant wheel breaking, for straight numbers (70-0 breaking for instance) then yes, Im sure that the abs system will out perform the non-abs system, but when going around turns, or trying to controll a drift, I personally find the anti-lock system distracting.

    Abs by definition is not a performance enhancing measure, it is a corrective measure, preventing a poor driver, or a driver in difficult circumstances (rain, sleet, ice, animals crossing the road, etc.) from locking the wheels. (again dont get me wrong, I, and im sure everyone else here has locked the wheels at least once)

    16-mag-2004 11.59.40

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Among those top 2% who better than the F1 drivers drivers, and if they are banned as well from using ABS its for a reason IMO.

    16-mag-2004 11.59.40

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Among those top 2% who better than the F1 drivers drivers, and if they are banned as well from using ABS its for a reason IMO.

    16-mag-2004 15.50.48

    Texas911
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    In risposta a: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

    16-mag-2004 15.50.48

    Texas911
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    In risposta a: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

    16-mag-2004 16.49.43

    Carlos from SpainM
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    In risposta a: Texas911

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.



    Thats what I actually meant, I was agreeing with you, they are banned because they pose a significant aid to the driver, if ABS wasn't superior than non-ABS even for the best drivers in the world (i.e. F1), it wouldn't be banned, ABS technology would just be dropped by the teams, but its banned because it does work, to prevent the teams from using its advantage.

    Just like the automated clutch control for the launch at the start was banned, its was superior to what a driver can do manually and bypased the driver factor so it had to be banned to prevent teams from using it, now drivers have to manually control the clutch at the launch. Well, the ABS was the same thing but with braking.

    16-mag-2004 16.49.43

    Carlos from SpainM
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    In risposta a: Texas911

    Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.



    Thats what I actually meant, I was agreeing with you, they are banned because they pose a significant aid to the driver, if ABS wasn't superior than non-ABS even for the best drivers in the world (i.e. F1), it wouldn't be banned, ABS technology would just be dropped by the teams, but its banned because it does work, to prevent the teams from using its advantage.

    Just like the automated clutch control for the launch at the start was banned, its was superior to what a driver can do manually and bypased the driver factor so it had to be banned to prevent teams from using it, now drivers have to manually control the clutch at the launch. Well, the ABS was the same thing but with braking.
     
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