Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL - Page1

May 13, 2004 7:15:24 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59601, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002

Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Due to problems with the SBC brake system, Mercedes recalls worldwide 600000(!) E-class and SL-class models.
Recalled are SL-class models starting with Oct. 2001 production and E-class models starting with March 2002 and E-class T models starting with March 2003.

According to Mercedes there is no danger of a complete brake failure because there is a hydraulic back-up system.

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May 13, 2004 7:45:01 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I bet that will leave a mark on MB's score in next years JD Powers survey

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May 13, 2004 7:45:01 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I bet that will leave a mark on MB's score in next years JD Powers survey

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May 13, 2004 9:16:34 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

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May 13, 2004 9:16:34 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12682, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

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May 13, 2004 10:05:03 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59601, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
rossi said:
Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

The gimmicks are not the problem. But they should add them only if they really work flawlessly.
My COMAND APS Nav System had several software updates before it started working how it should work.
Even Porsche has 3(!) different versions of the Nav software on the Cayenne.
If the engine/suspension manufacturers would work at the same level as the programmers, the cars would have serious problems. Software is really a problem in today's world.
Best example: Linux. They talk about the benefits of open source, they condamn Windows but the reality is: you have security updates and bugfixes for Linux too almost every week.

Car companies outsource a lot of the software development because of the benefits. But in exchange, they get a lot of bugs and problems too.

I don't know how they could do better because building cars without electronics at all isn't possible anymore. And I really love gimmicks on a car but they should work.

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May 13, 2004 10:05:03 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59601, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
rossi said:
Slowly but surely I start thinking that the more electronic gimmicks they put in the cars, the less they can handle it and the more problems we all will get...

The gimmicks are not the problem. But they should add them only if they really work flawlessly.
My COMAND APS Nav System had several software updates before it started working how it should work.
Even Porsche has 3(!) different versions of the Nav software on the Cayenne.
If the engine/suspension manufacturers would work at the same level as the programmers, the cars would have serious problems. Software is really a problem in today's world.
Best example: Linux. They talk about the benefits of open source, they condamn Windows but the reality is: you have security updates and bugfixes for Linux too almost every week.

Car companies outsource a lot of the software development because of the benefits. But in exchange, they get a lot of bugs and problems too.

I don't know how they could do better because building cars without electronics at all isn't possible anymore. And I really love gimmicks on a car but they should work.

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May 14, 2004 1:19:19 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

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May 14, 2004 1:19:19 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

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May 14, 2004 7:31:31 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59601, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
brunner said:
Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

Yes and no. Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?

I think quality control doesn't work as it should work and maybe some people at some car companies don't have a clue what a certain product (COMAND APS for example) is all about. "Give the customer a nice toy with a nice screen and some nice buttons and we figure out the bugs later...".
As sad this might sound, it seems to be a fact all over the car industry.

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May 14, 2004 7:31:31 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59601, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: brunner

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
brunner said:
Software bugs are harder to find, diagnose and fix than mechanical errors, and the code (including the development tools) changes much faster than the rest of the car does.

Yes and no. Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?

I think quality control doesn't work as it should work and maybe some people at some car companies don't have a clue what a certain product (COMAND APS for example) is all about. "Give the customer a nice toy with a nice screen and some nice buttons and we figure out the bugs later...".
As sad this might sound, it seems to be a fact all over the car industry.

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May 14, 2004 10:56:22 PM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I dont think the problem (by problem I am refering to car electrial problems in general) really lies within intergrating the two technologies. Look at anti-lock-brakes (ABS). Its a technology that has been around for many many years, yet it still isn't annywhere nearly as effective as an experienced driver's foot.

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May 14, 2004 10:56:22 PM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I dont think the problem (by problem I am refering to car electrial problems in general) really lies within intergrating the two technologies. Look at anti-lock-brakes (ABS). Its a technology that has been around for many many years, yet it still isn't annywhere nearly as effective as an experienced driver's foot.

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May 15, 2004 3:52:49 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
RC said:
Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?

Maybe they modified the software just before launch, and thought 'hey, that's a minor update, no point in running tests again'. BZZZT! wrong

Hmmm... this is still a quality control issue

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May 15, 2004 3:52:49 AM

brunner: Veteran; Loc: E. Europe , Romania; Posts: 1125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 28, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
RC said:
Take the COMAND APS system: you really don't want to tell me that a Mercedes test driver drives around in a E-class mule for 6 months and the system works flawlessly and suddenly when the first E-class cars make it to customers, the trouble starts?

Maybe they modified the software just before launch, and thought 'hey, that's a minor update, no point in running tests again'. BZZZT! wrong

Hmmm... this is still a quality control issue

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May 15, 2004 12:50:15 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I'm sorry but ABS can out do even the most experienced driver. Can a driver control 4 wheels indepedently and pump each one at up to 30 times a second?

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May 15, 2004 12:50:15 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

I'm sorry but ABS can out do even the most experienced driver. Can a driver control 4 wheels indepedently and pump each one at up to 30 times a second?

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May 16, 2004 4:48:53 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

An experienced driver cannot press the pedal 30 times a second, but he also doesnt over correct during turns, and knows exactly when the traction is about to break, wheras most abs systems (and every one i have ever experienced) has been far too "safe", keeping the driver from extracting the maximum performance from the vehicle.

Don't get me wrong, for perhaps 98% of all drivers, abs is superior to non-computer assisted breaking, but for that 2%, it ruins the driving experience.

About the independant wheel breaking, for straight numbers (70-0 breaking for instance) then yes, Im sure that the abs system will out perform the non-abs system, but when going around turns, or trying to controll a drift, I personally find the anti-lock system distracting.

Abs by definition is not a performance enhancing measure, it is a corrective measure, preventing a poor driver, or a driver in difficult circumstances (rain, sleet, ice, animals crossing the road, etc.) from locking the wheels. (again dont get me wrong, I, and im sure everyone else here has locked the wheels at least once)

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May 16, 2004 4:48:53 AM

Scuderia: Co-Pilot; Loc: CA, United States; Posts: 159, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 22, 2003; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

An experienced driver cannot press the pedal 30 times a second, but he also doesnt over correct during turns, and knows exactly when the traction is about to break, wheras most abs systems (and every one i have ever experienced) has been far too "safe", keeping the driver from extracting the maximum performance from the vehicle.

Don't get me wrong, for perhaps 98% of all drivers, abs is superior to non-computer assisted breaking, but for that 2%, it ruins the driving experience.

About the independant wheel breaking, for straight numbers (70-0 breaking for instance) then yes, Im sure that the abs system will out perform the non-abs system, but when going around turns, or trying to controll a drift, I personally find the anti-lock system distracting.

Abs by definition is not a performance enhancing measure, it is a corrective measure, preventing a poor driver, or a driver in difficult circumstances (rain, sleet, ice, animals crossing the road, etc.) from locking the wheels. (again dont get me wrong, I, and im sure everyone else here has locked the wheels at least once)

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May 16, 2004 11:59:40 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Among those top 2% who better than the F1 drivers drivers, and if they are banned as well from using ABS its for a reason IMO.

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May 16, 2004 11:59:40 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Scuderia

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Among those top 2% who better than the F1 drivers drivers, and if they are banned as well from using ABS its for a reason IMO.

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May 16, 2004 3:50:48 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

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May 16, 2004 3:50:48 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

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May 16, 2004 4:49:43 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
Texas911 said:
They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

Thats what I actually meant, I was agreeing with you, they are banned because they pose a significant aid to the driver, if ABS wasn't superior than non-ABS even for the best drivers in the world (i.e. F1), it wouldn't be banned, ABS technology would just be dropped by the teams, but its banned because it does work, to prevent the teams from using its advantage.

Just like the automated clutch control for the launch at the start was banned, its was superior to what a driver can do manually and bypased the driver factor so it had to be banned to prevent teams from using it, now drivers have to manually control the clutch at the launch. Well, the ABS was the same thing but with braking.

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May 16, 2004 4:49:43 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21155, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Mercedes E-class and SL-class RECALL

Quote:
Texas911 said:
They are not banned because they don't work, they are banned because its a driver's aid, like active suspension.

Thats what I actually meant, I was agreeing with you, they are banned because they pose a significant aid to the driver, if ABS wasn't superior than non-ABS even for the best drivers in the world (i.e. F1), it wouldn't be banned, ABS technology would just be dropped by the teams, but its banned because it does work, to prevent the teams from using its advantage.

Just like the automated clutch control for the launch at the start was banned, its was superior to what a driver can do manually and bypased the driver factor so it had to be banned to prevent teams from using it, now drivers have to manually control the clutch at the launch. Well, the ABS was the same thing but with braking.

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