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    question about brakes

    I posted that issue before, but I still have no answer:

    DC presents a new DTM-CLK, with nearly 600 hp and for more than 200.000.-- Euro. But there are no carbo-ceramic-brakes, although the price would justify them and DC has them in stock. Instead it shows up with masssive steel discs. Also the DTM cars don't have them.

    Ferrari brings out a Challenge Stradale with CCR-brakes, but none of the Challenge cars has them. Instead they also have huge steel discs (not even drilled because of brake pad durability).

    Only cars with CCR seem to be top end products like Enzo, CGT, SLR, CS, GT2 and GT3RS, which play the role of an image carrier in their class.

    So my question (again): are CCR brakes really that much better than their steel companions? Or do huge steel discs do the same job only for less money?

    Re: question about brakes

    My humble opinion is that ceramic/carbon brakes have not yet improved upon the traditional iron brakes in street use, which is very different than 100% track-racing use.

    Carrera GT ?

    I suspect that the Carrera GT might prove us wrong on that. Supposedly it is the first car to have race volumes of cooling air to the brakes. If you can keep them cool then ceramics are superior to cast iron.

    But after my experience with these things, I'm going to want someone else to prove me right.

    What's more, they might be an improvement but how much of one? They aren't cheap to buy or replace. Is it enough of an improvement to justify the price? Maybe on a car like the CGT but on more ordinary stuff?

    Stephen

    Re: Carrera GT ?

    I have PCCB on my '04 996 TT X50 cabriolet. I think they work just fine on the street. I have only 1100 miles so far, though.

    There are two main things I like about them vs. ferrous rotors:

    1) There is NO discernable brake dust collected on the wheels. On my red-caliper 996 TT coupe, I can't drive in a occasionally sporting manner over 100 miles without collecting lots of black gunk on the wheels.

    2) The rotors don't get rusty after a car wash.

    Cheers,

    Re: Carrera GT ?

    In Antwort auf:
    W8MM said:
    There are two main things I like about them vs. ferrous rotors:
    1) There is NO discernable brake dust collected on the wheels. On my red-caliper 996 TT coupe, I can't drive in a occasionally sporting manner over 100 miles without collecting lots of black gunk on the wheels.
    2) The rotors don't get rusty after a car wash.




    Hmm, if that's all they're not worth the money (as I thought).

    Re: Carrera GT ?

    Quote:
    rossi said:
    Hmm, if that's all they're not worth the money (as I thought).



    To each his own

    I'll get them again for sure when I upgrade to a 997 or 998.

    Re: question about brakes

    Here is a very recent article on the issue.

    http://www.evo.co.uk/news/evo_news_story.php?id=46530

    Re: question about brakes

    Here is the text


    Thursday 6th May 2004



    Porsche Brake Problems


    orsche enthusiasts are embroiled in a building row over the longevity of the company's hi-tech and extremely costly Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) technology. The ceramic discs were claimed in Porsche's original literature to be 'the most effective braking system ever featured on a production Porsche'.

    Launched on the 911 GT2, the company said the cross-drilled and ventilated discs were '50 per cent lighter than conventional alternatives' and combined with 'an innovative new composite brake pad... temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance'. Most amazingly, Porsche's own literature claimed that each disc would offer 'a service life of approximately 300,000km (186,000 miles)'.

    However, many Porsche owners - who either bought GT2s or paid the Pounds6000 option price to have the PCCB system fitted to a GT3 - are finding that the discs and pads don't last anything like as long. Trackday drivers are finding that hard use can lead to extensive cracking of the discs and the need for replacement. Replacing four PCCB discs and pads costs over Pounds27,000. A figure that has shocked owners who have been affected. GT3 owners at least have the option of swapping back to conventional steel discs.

    Owners and Porsche specialists are trying to pin down the reason for the problem, and most agree that excessive heat is the main cause, although some are also blaming gravel damage from trackside excursions.

    The general consensus of opinion is that the nose design of the 996-series 911 does not draw enough cooling air onto the front brake discs. Porsche specialists are devising fixes for the problem, including altering the angle of the nose-mounted radiators to allow more air into the wheel wells. Special ducting is also being designed by specialists to channel more air to the discs.

    For its part, Porsche has now changed the wording of its literature, warning brake components must be checked and, if necessary, replaced after track driving. Some dealers have replaced discs under warranty, but others are now not changing cracked discs until the fissures are relatively extensive.

    The same problems have already been encountered in the US, according to Steve Wiener, of Porsche specialist Rennsport Systems, with some PCCB discs cracking badly enough to physically fall apart. However, he told evo that failures are not consistent and much depends on the individual driver.

    'The problems are caused by heat, but each driver is different and some are harder on the brakes than others. Professional drivers are unlikely to cause a temperature 'spike' when driving hard.' Wiener ruled out gravel-trap damage as US circuits generally don't use it. 'We are switching back to iron Brembo or Alcon discs and advising owners of PCCB-equipped cars to take the discs off and store them for when the car is eventually sold.'

    A Porsche UK spokesman said that while there had been PCCB failures, these were all attributable to 'significant overheating' of the brakes. 'While the ceramic discs can take much higher temperatures than steel, they are not indestructible. We are also quite happy with the amount of brake cooling that the 996 provides for its front brakes.'

    A number of 911 drivers have also told evo that they no longer place high value on the braking abilities of PCCB. The hot word is that PCCB are not felt to brake better than steel discs using Pagid yellow sport pads, which are Porsche's factory standard. Other owners are now saying that PCCB are actually less effective on the track than steel discs with Pagid orange pads (designed for 24-hour endurance racing).

    The truth is, with the composite discs so phenomenally expensive, few enthusiast drivers can currently risk this hi-tech option.

    Comments: 0 Article from: evo

    Re: question about brakes

    Thanks Nick! Very interesting article. So I guess if you get the new Modena Spider and if there will be an option "CCB-brakes" like those of the Challenge Stradale you won't get them, right?

     
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