Crown

Wonderbar:

But it is fast, really fast, especially coming out of corners where even the expert in the leading 911 Turbo S cannot keep up. 

Are you aware what you claim?

That Panamera Turbo S is faster on the track then 991.2 Turbo S? 

Cornering speed of 991.2 Turbo S Coupe is way higher then Panamera Turbo S. 

Read the review before you gets so haughty with me.  The journalist says that, coming out of the corners, the Panamera gains ground on the turbo S and it's pro driver every time. If you disagree, take it up with him.

Wonderbar:

Read the review before you gets so haughty with me.  The journalist says that, coming out of the corners, the Panamera gains ground on the turbo S and it's pro driver every time. If you disagree, take it up with him.

It is totally normal for the leading car to gain ground when leaving the corner. The reason is that the leading car starts accelerating earlier. No special effect. The author just did not know this, apparently...

KresoF1:

Wonderbar:

But it is fast, really fast, especially coming out of corners where even the expert in the leading 911 Turbo S cannot keep up. 

Are you aware what you claim?

That Panamera Turbo S is faster on the track then 991.2 Turbo S? 

Cornering speed of 991.2 Turbo S Coupe is way higher then Panamera Turbo S. 

Not over the whole track. Of course a 991 Turbo S will be faster around corners. But in a lead/follow situation, the leading car will pace the chase car especially around corners, so not at close to limit. But on corner exits, the extra helper from the electric motors really do wonders on straight line accelerations, especially deadly in the hands of a good driver who knows what they are doing on the track.

MKSGR:

Wonderbar:

Read the review before you gets so haughty with me.  The journalist says that, coming out of the corners, the Panamera gains ground on the turbo S and it's pro driver every time. If you disagree, take it up with him.

It is totally normal for the leading car to gain ground when leaving the corner. The reason is that the leading car starts accelerating earlier. No special effect. The author just did not know this, apparently...

It was the Turbo S which was the lead car. Am I reading something different. Sounds like it has quite a bit of shove vs the 911. I'm with Whoopsy on this one. The next 911 Turbo is bound to get some extra volts as well. 

MKSGR, the Panamera was not the lead car, the Turbo S was. The Panamera was following.  

No need to debate this small point.  The Turbo S is certainly quicker and more nimble overall. I was just reporting what the reviewer said about the Panamera exiting the turn--not about entering, hitting the apex, or covering the whole track...

noone1:

5100 lbs. Might as well just go full EV at that point.

Why? The Panamera Turbo S eats the Tesla S P100D for breakfast, especially at speeds over 100 mph and in curves.

While the speed thing may not matter in speed limited countries, the chassis and steering feel matters. The Tesla S felt less sporty than my wife's Cayenne S Diesel, so...  

Nice car, but it's a pretty big stretch at $200K.

I fully agree with you. However, the Tesla S P100D is around 170k EUR in Germany with full options. In my opinion quite a stretch as well. For 130k EUR, I would take the new Panamera Turbo S in a heartbeat, same goes to the upcoming Cayenne Turbo S (next gen). These cars are way too expensive but I guess Porsche targets a certain customer group with them and I guess they know what they're doing. Not my cup of tea though.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

There is only one country and a few wide open stretches of autobahn left where you can go v-max.  Elon is happy to build a car for the rest of the world. I also believe it is more likely that Germany will introduce limits long before others drop theirs. Tesla's existence may actually cause Germany to keep its unlimited roads longer. 

Leawood911:

There is only one country and a few wide open stretches of autobahn left where you can go v-max.  Elon is happy to build a car for the rest of the world. I also believe it is more likely that Germany will introduce limits long before others drop theirs. Tesla's existence may actually cause Germany to keep its unlimited roads longer. 

The top speed isn't really what matters. Drive a Tesla S P100D in the sportiest setup and then switch to a Panamera Turbo S. Drive on some nice country roads with lots of curves. You'll understand the difference pretty fast.

Tesla cars have become some sort of status symbol, many seem to forget that.

In Germany, politicians are trying to pressure the car industry into building more ELVs or actually switching to ELVs completely but this would be totally idiotic and I understand why they don't do that.

Just as a general question: Why don't GM and Ford for example jump on the ELV train? They should feel much more threatened by Tesla than any European car manufacturer, right?! 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

You forget that Tesla can make their car more sport. It's not like the EV powertrain prevents them from making a better suspension or anything. If you believe Porsche can make the Mission-E a Tesla-like EV with Porsche driving dynamics, then it's safe to say that Tesla could make an EV with Porsche driving dynamics as well.

If you're going to make a 5100 lb hybrid, you might as well just dump the ICE and go full EV. If a 5100 lb hybrid can handle like that, so can a 5300 lb EV.

noone1:

You forget that Tesla can make their car more sport. It's not like the EV powertrain prevents them from making a better suspension or anything. If you believe Porsche can make the Mission-E a Tesla-like EV with Porsche driving dynamics, then it's safe to say that Tesla could make an EV with Porsche driving dynamics as well.

If you're going to make a 5100 lb hybrid, you might as well just dump the ICE and go full EV. If a 5100 lb hybrid can handle like that, so can a 5300 lb EV.

Forget it. Drive feel and integration of components is where an OEM needs all the expertise. Tesla will need 10-20 years to get where Porsche is - if they could get there at all.

noone1:

You forget that Tesla can make their car more sport. It's not like the EV powertrain prevents them from making a better suspension or anything. If you believe Porsche can make the Mission-E a Tesla-like EV with Porsche driving dynamics, then it's safe to say that Tesla could make an EV with Porsche driving dynamics as well.

I kind of doubt that, it isn't easy and requires years of experience and specialized engineers. If everyone could do it, why is Porsche (still) king when it comes to sporty sedans and SUVs?  Tesla still hasn't managed to build decent interiors, so... 

If you're going to make a 5100 lb hybrid, you might as well just dump the ICE and go full EV. If a 5100 lb hybrid can handle like that, so can a 5300 lb EV.

I have a big house and could easily install a charging station in my garage but why should I? With the current charging infrastructure, I would prefer a hybrid over an ELV anytime. In 10 years, this may look different but now? No ELV for me, I would take a hybrid over any ELV (unless someone comes up with a charging tech "miracle"...). Also, I would still benefit from some sort of engine sound when driving a hybrid, an ELV would be only interesting as a daily driver from A to B but not as a fun car. No way. Even if it does 0-100 kph in one second. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Fun posts.  I would just add that I have spent some time in my neighbor's Tesla X, which he says costs over 150K U.S.  Cool, silent, unique car--great for getting about town, going to nice restaurants, feeling quite "modern".  But it is no Porsche.  I much prefer the overall integrated and powerful feel of my Cayenne Turbo, and would certainly prefer a Panamera Turbo at approximately the same price as the X.

Wonderbar:

Fun posts.  I would just add that I have spent some time in my neighbor's Tesla X, which he says costs over 150K U.S.  Cool, silent, unique car--great for getting about town, going to nice restaurants, feeling quite "modern".  But it is no Porsche.  I much prefer the overall integrated and powerful feel of my Cayenne Turbo, and would certainly prefer a Panamera Turbo at approximately the same price as the X.

Exactly.  I think that to some people, a Tesla definitely makes sense but these people do not love driving, they love to get from A to B in a certain way and maybe enjoy being seen in a Tesla, if you get my point.  Personally, I prefer a more engaging and exciting drive and while I understand the benefits and attraction of a Tesla, especially as a daily commuter, I got so bored with my Mini JCW (which definitely produces more emotions than a Tesla) that I can barely wait to give this car back (lease). Same goes to my wife's Cayenne S Diesel: Comfy, quiet driving from A to B is definitely not my style of driving.  BORING. Even my wife admits to that. Drove my R8 yesterday for two hours, came home grinning like a little boy who just got his first kiss.  No Tesla can give that to me...not yet.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Wonderbar:

Fun posts.  I would just add that I have spent some time in my neighbor's Tesla X, which he says costs over 150K U.S.  Cool, silent, unique car--great for getting about town, going to nice restaurants, feeling quite "modern".  But it is no Porsche.  I much prefer the overall integrated and powerful feel of my Cayenne Turbo, and would certainly prefer a Panamera Turbo at approximately the same price as the X.

Exactly.  I think that to some people, a Tesla definitely makes sense but these people do not love driving, they love to get from A to B in a certain way and maybe enjoy being seen in a Tesla, if you get my point.  Personally, I prefer a more engaging and exciting drive and while I understand the benefits and attraction of a Tesla, especially as a daily commuter, I got so bored with my Mini JCW (which definitely produces more emotions than a Tesla) that I can barely wait to give this car back (lease). Same goes to my wife's Cayenne S Diesel: Comfy, quiet driving from A to B is definitely not my style of driving.  BORING. Even my wife admits to that. Drove my R8 yesterday for two hours, came home grinning like a little boy who just got his first kiss.  No Tesla can give that to me...not yet.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

I agree completely but we are in the minority. Kids these days barely care about driving. Except our kids of course. And wives. But the future looks grim for us few remaining enthusiasts. You know I'm one die hard car freak given my defense of manual shifting. Heck I just drove a UHaul from KC to Portland last Wednesday and Thursday. Alone without cruise control.  But we are few and far between. 

I do believe that if needed Tesla could make sporty cars. How soon you forget the first lotus Tesla. Plenty of engineers willing to jump ship for money. It happens all the time. Decades can be bought in seconds. Sadly it is not even a priority as I mentioned that the type of driving we do is going out of style. 

I don't believe it would be that hard for Tesla to make a very well handling car. Would it compete with the latest and great Porsche? Maybe not. Would it compete with a 5 year old Porsche? Probably.

The most desirable and highest priced Porsches in the world have ancient technology. If you don't think Tesla could call up a major supplier and say "We want to make this handle as good as a Porsche from a few years ago", well, you're kidding yourself.

Hell, they could ring up McLaren and buy whatever technology they needed. Surely McLaren knows a thing or two about handling and dynamics, and McLaren doesn't compete with Tesla (unlike Porsche), so they'd surely have no problem with it.

It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

noone1:

I don't believe it would be that hard for Tesla to make a very well handling car. Would it compete with the latest and great Porsche? Maybe not. Would it compete with a 5 year old Porsche? Probably.

It is pretty difficult to make a 2 ton car handle like a 1.5 ton car, believe it or not. Requires quite the chassis and tires master engineers.

The most desirable and highest priced Porsches in the world have ancient technology. If you don't think Tesla could call up a major supplier and say "We want to make this handle as good as a Porsche from a few years ago", well, you're kidding yourself.

Ancient technology from what perspective? A modern hybrid engine is not ancient technology.

Hell, they could ring up McLaren and buy whatever technology they needed. Surely McLaren knows a thing or two about handling and dynamics, and McLaren doesn't compete with Tesla (unlike Porsche), so they'd surely have no problem with it.

You really think McLaren would try to make an elephant (Tesla S or X) move like a ballerina, just because they get money for that? Maybe but I guess Porsche would be the better address for that (Weissach has lots of experience with third party developments for other manufacturers, no kidding).

It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

Not that easy but possible. However, Porsche could play the same card. 

If is actually quite interesting how people compare Tesla, probably the least profitable mass production car manufacturer on this planet with Porsche, the most profitable mass production car manufacturer.  

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

noone1:

I don't believe it would be that hard for Tesla to make a very well handling car. Would it compete with the latest and great Porsche? Maybe not. Would it compete with a 5 year old Porsche? Probably.

The most desirable and highest priced Porsches in the world have ancient technology. If you don't think Tesla could call up a major supplier and say "We want to make this handle as good as a Porsche from a few years ago", well, you're kidding yourself.

Hell, they could ring up McLaren and buy whatever technology they needed. Surely McLaren knows a thing or two about handling and dynamics, and McLaren doesn't compete with Tesla (unlike Porsche), so they'd surely have no problem with it.

It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

I really enjoy (sometimes) your controversial approach to "things", however, Porsche and its employees are different...I am not saying that money cannot not buy talent, but the majority of the folks in Porsche town (Zuffenhausen etc.) LIVE the product...and I am not saying this because I live in Germany and want to defend the German car industry, but from my experiences with the company - it is obvious that they are (positively) "different", something money cannot buy...

Leawood911:

. Plenty of engineers willing to jump ship for money. It happens all the time. Decades can be bought in seconds.. 

Don't think so. People with know-how are inflexible + the best engineers often do not care much for money. Also the history proves the opposite - otherwise we would have more producers of cars that handle like a Porsche or Mercedes or BMW.

noone1:

 

The most desirable and highest priced Porsches in the world have ancient technology. If you don't think Tesla could call up a major supplier and say "We want to make this handle as good as a Porsche from a few years ago", well, you're kidding yourself.
 

It is impossible. The car industry just does not work like this as the key qualities (feeling, handling etc.) are not developed by suppliers. The OEMs protect their core know-how in these areas. Nothing to copy by a Chinese company or Tesla. Otherwise some Chines car would already be as good as a Porsche 

noone1:

 

It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

Even in Silicon Valley this is not correct... Just look at the Uber disaster after they "bought" the engineer from Google. There are big differences between theory and reality... And it gets much, much more difficult if you are trying to poach people from German car companies and try to move their expertise and know-how to the US. Forget it. Otherwise it would have done many, many times already - but to China. They have much more money than Tesla (even with the Ponzi scheme at work)...

MKSGR:

Leawood911:

. Plenty of engineers willing to jump ship for money. It happens all the time. Decades can be bought in seconds.. 

Don't think so. People with know-how are inflexible + the best engineers often do not care much for money. Also the history proves the opposite - otherwise we would have more producers of cars that handle like a Porsche or Mercedes or BMW.

I agree, most Porsche employees are very loyal to Porsche for various reasons. Also because the working atmosphere in Weissach is just fantastic (I was there a couple of times, once not only like the typical visitor, had access to offices and saw how they work, amazing and friendly teamwork). Same goes to Werk 1 (have been there a dozen of times over the past 20 years or so) and other Zuffenhausen facilities. Porsche is certainly a very desirable working place for many.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

One last point: most top engineers would probably consider a job at Tesla very, very risky. It is well possible that the company will be closed down not so far in the future... Same is true for Chinese companies. Who wants to move to China as an established engineer/manager? Moving there (or to Tesla), braking ties with the network of established OEMs?  All these points show the difficulties to get know-how.

A friend of mine works as an engineer for Space X. Admitted, as a contractor, so these guys think different about career paths/risks than other people, but he was very happy to get hired, of only for his resumé.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Joost:

A friend of mine works as an engineer for Space X. Admitted, as a contractor, so these guys think different about career paths/risks than other people, but he was very happy to get hired, of only for his resumé.

In this industry, you should be happy if you get hired. 

NASA fired so many good engineers a couple of years ago...good for Space X and other new companies who are working in the same direction.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Joost:

A friend of mine works as an engineer for Space X. Admitted, as a contractor, so these guys think different about career paths/risks than other people, but he was very happy to get hired, of only for his resumé.

In this industry, you should be happy if you get hired. 

NASA fired so many good engineers a couple of years ago...good for Space X and other new companies who are working in the same direction.

Sadly, at the moment this is true. We're all anxiously looking to the big boys announcing new aircraft tbh.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

noone1:

Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

Engineers are not soccer players.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

MKSGR:

noone1:

 

It's pretty easy to buy talent and technology. Money talks. If Tesla really, really wants top Porsche engineers, they could write a few multi-million dollars in check and they'll have them.

Even in Silicon Valley this is not correct... Just look at the Uber disaster after they "bought" the engineer from Google. There are big differences between theory and reality... And it gets much, much more difficult if you are trying to poach people from German car companies and try to move their expertise and know-how to the US. Forget it. Otherwise it would have done many, many times already - but to China. They have much more money than Tesla (even with the Ponzi scheme at work)...

China didn't buy high end car talent because they don't make high-end cars and they already force joint ventures on everyone anyway.

noone1:

Give me $50M and I'll hire you just about anyone from Porsche.

Engineering does not work like this. You need whole teams. And if you poach teams you will be sued. Even if the people wanted to join to Tesla as a team they could not do it for legal reasons.