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dhayek said:
great test.. and the french comments were very good.
dr.phil, i dont agree for the "just" an audi thing. porsche also isnt what it used to be in this matter ,now that tey produce over 110000 car a year.
one thing is for sure , the r8 will be much more exclusive than the 911, since it will be produced to only 5000 cars a year, and it doesnt look close to any other car in the audi range
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Dr. Phil said:Quote:
dhayek said:
great test.. and the french comments were very good.
dr.phil, i dont agree for the "just" an audi thing. porsche also isnt what it used to be in this matter ,now that tey produce over 110000 car a year.
one thing is for sure , the r8 will be much more exclusive than the 911, since it will be produced to only 5000 cars a year, and it doesnt look close to any other car in the audi range
Dimitri, I wasnt talking about exclusivity in terms of numbers.
I was referring to handling - particularly steering.
And speaking of exclusivity thru numbers, Audi produces a lot more than 5000 cars a year just as Porsche produces a lot less than 110000 997s a year.
So a fair comparison would be between the no of 911 turbos and no of R8s, since the R8 supposedly covers the 997TTs clientel.
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Dr. Phil said:Quote:
dhayek said:
great test.. and the french comments were very good.
dr.phil, i dont agree for the "just" an audi thing. porsche also isnt what it used to be in this matter ,now that tey produce over 110000 car a year.
one thing is for sure , the r8 will be much more exclusive than the 911, since it will be produced to only 5000 cars a year, and it doesnt look close to any other car in the audi range
Dimitri, I wasnt talking about exclusivity in terms of numbers.
I was referring to handling - particularly steering.
And speaking of exclusivity thru numbers, Audi produces a lot more than 5000 cars a year just as Porsche produces a lot less than 110000 997s a year.
So a fair comparison would be between the no of 911 turbos and no of R8s, since the R8 supposedly covers the 997TTs clientel.
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Dr. Phil said:
Ok, words are one thing. How many have actually ordered an R8? And how many actually, seriously would, if they had to choose between a 911 and an R8?
The exclusivity argument doesnt hold water IMO.
No matter how you look at it, unless they only produced ONE, the Audi brand is a lot less sought after than that of Porsche.
If the car had been a competitor to the Cayman - and priced that way- , I might have considered it a serious alternative to Porsche.
But spending the kinda $ on an Audi that you would on a fully specced 997s Cab or similar? Thanks, but no thanks.
When u dish out that kinda money for a car, you dont wanna explain yourself.
"What kinda car u drive?"
-ah, it's an Audi...
" Oh, ok. Nice...so how's your family? Your wife still a lapdanser?"..
-But, but, but..it's an R8!!
I dunno. It's probably "the businessman's sportscar".
"Drive it without wrinkling your Armani suit".
But it reminds me of the Skoda Octavia RS: Sure, it might be good, but it's still a Skoda.
I think Audi might be facing the Z-06 dilemma: Unless they make a car that beats the crap out of the competition at a substantially lower price, and keeps doing that, the established and "classic" sportscar makers will win that battle.
Audi may be doing well in Le Mans and DTC, but they are still not a sporscar maker. They make quality upscale family cars.
And now the family car company has built a real sporscar.
You ask yourself this; Would u rather buy a sportscar from a (albeit huge) factory that primarily produces front engine sedans, or pay the same $ for a sportscar built by a company that has done nothing else for 50 years?
They build 5000 to begin with. Not because they wanna be exclusive, but because they dont have a choice. I dont even think u can find 5000 affluent people who would rather get an R8 than a 911 or perhaps even Ferrari Dino.
Only time will tell.
The R8 might be an abslutely great car, but the brand is just not as exclusive or sought after as Porsche or Ferrari. It's that simple.
You gotta include branding into the equasion.
If not, we would all be driving a Ford Ka and wearing H&M rags: I.e. the choice would be a sensible/rational one.
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shin said:
Just like a Cayenne (same architecture as the Touareg) is more a VW than a true Porsche, no matter how many horsepower it has.
Just my two cents. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, right. Peace.
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shin said:
Well, one can say that the 'Audi' R8 is really an 'Audi-Lamborghini' Gallardo wuth a smaller engine. Even the Gallardo will be upgraded wuth the new suspension from the R8.
Mid-engined, alumunium spaceframe, I think the R8 is more Lamborghini than it is an Audi.
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SciFrog said:Quote:
shin said:
Just like a Cayenne (same architecture as the Touareg) is more a VW than a true Porsche, no matter how many horsepower it has.
Just my two cents. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, right. Peace.
You haven't driven a Cayenne turbo, have you?
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Dr. Phil said:Quote:
shin said:
Well, one can say that the 'Audi' R8 is really an 'Audi-Lamborghini' Gallardo wuth a smaller engine. Even the Gallardo will be upgraded wuth the new suspension from the R8.
Mid-engined, alumunium spaceframe, I think the R8 is more Lamborghini than it is an Audi.
Well. If it is more a Lambo than an Audi, why put an Audi badge on it?
I hear what u are saying, and u are right. Technically.
But again - the mere fact that a new R8 owner has to "explain" that this car is actually almost a Lambo (a more attractive brand than Audi) is the very core of the problem.
U dont hear Lambo-owners having to explain or excuse the fact that Lambo is in the Audi family.
Like I said before: Audi may have built a great sportscar, and I am sure it technically is.
However, I doubt very much that it will be able to compete against the "real" sportscar makers and their products once potential buyers have to make real- life decisions.
Feb 8, 2007 1:06:07 PM
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shin said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
However, I doubt very much that it will be able to compete against the "real" sportscar makers and their products once potential buyers have to make real- life decisions.
True, but only if one is concerned so much about the brand of their car. To me, for a performance car, the 'technicalities' (read : performance) is much more important than the 'brand' itself (read : image).
Feb 8, 2007 1:15:52 PM
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Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
shin said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
However, I doubt very much that it will be able to compete against the "real" sportscar makers and their products once potential buyers have to make real- life decisions.
True, but only if one is concerned so much about the brand of their car. To me, for a performance car, the 'technicalities' (read : performance) is much more important than the 'brand' itself (read : image).
You're right in the sense that it would be silly to buy a car just for the brand even if the competition offers a better alternative at a similar price point. But in most cases a brand has build up it's reputation for some good reasons (in case of Porsche it's 50+ years experience in designing and building sportscars - an experience Audi doesn't have).
Feb 8, 2007 1:25:46 PM
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Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
shin said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
However, I doubt very much that it will be able to compete against the "real" sportscar makers and their products once potential buyers have to make real- life decisions.
True, but only if one is concerned so much about the brand of their car. To me, for a performance car, the 'technicalities' (read : performance) is much more important than the 'brand' itself (read : image).
You're right in the sense that it would be silly to buy a car just for the brand even if the competition offers a better alternative at a similar price point. But in most cases a brand has build up it's reputation for some good reasons (in case of Porsche it's 50+ years experience in designing and building sportscars - an experience Audi doesn't have).
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Crash said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
shin said:Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
However, I doubt very much that it will be able to compete against the "real" sportscar makers and their products once potential buyers have to make real- life decisions.
True, but only if one is concerned so much about the brand of their car. To me, for a performance car, the 'technicalities' (read : performance) is much more important than the 'brand' itself (read : image).
You're right in the sense that it would be silly to buy a car just for the brand even if the competition offers a better alternative at a similar price point. But in most cases a brand has build up it's reputation for some good reasons (in case of Porsche it's 50+ years experience in designing and building sportscars - an experience Audi doesn't have).
That's true. However, the way I look at it, Audi has acquired Lamborghini and the Gallardo certainly proves that the two are capable of building an amazing sports car. Add to that the inherent quality of contemporary Audis (my father's old 1991 Audi 100 is still driving around today and looks and feels like new) and you have a very potent competitor. Sure, brand image is not nearly as sporty as Porsche, but the Audi Quattro and their Le Mans participation in recent years do suggest that they aren't as clueless as people think. Give them 5 to 10 years and the image could be completely different, even more so if the rumors we are hearing are true and Audi is really planning on switching its future models towards RWD.
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shin said:
No, but if I want a turbocharged Porsche, it would be a 911. If I only wanted mad horsepower or torque in my SUV, an Audi Q7 V12 Tdi (500 bhp, 1000 Nm) would do the job just as well as, if not better than, the Cayenne Turbo. Not to mention half the fuel consumption.
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SciFrog said:Quote:
shin said:
No, but if I want a turbocharged Porsche, it would be a 911. If I only wanted mad horsepower or torque in my SUV, an Audi Q7 V12 Tdi (500 bhp, 1000 Nm) would do the job just as well as, if not better than, the Cayenne Turbo. Not to mention half the fuel consumption.
No diesel cars in NY and CA...
So my Q7 is a lowly 350HP gas one
My point though was after driving a Cayenne turbo, you'll forget all about the VW parts.
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shin said:
As for the RWD rumor, I believe Audi will stick with Quattro, with an RWD bias. Even Ferrari is going the AWD route now.
The Murcielago's successor (the second Audi-Lamborghini) will be amazing. Alumunium spaceframe, direct injection, latest Quattro technology...
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Crash said:
but the Audi Quattro and their Le Mans participation in recent years do suggest that they aren't as clueless as people think.
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Jeannot said:Quote:
Crash said:
but the Audi Quattro and their Le Mans participation in recent years do suggest that they aren't as clueless as people think.
Same argument could be use with Citroen (WRC rally) and Renault (F1)
Also, did really Audi face big competition at Le Mans?
I don't think so...
Unless they engage the R8 in some competition (and if they win big time), I do not see these impacting immediate sales...
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Jeannot said:Quote:
Crash said:
but the Audi Quattro and their Le Mans participation in recent years do suggest that they aren't as clueless as people think.
Same argument could be use with Citroen (WRC rally) and Renault (F1)
Also, did really Audi face big competition at Le Mans?
I don't think so...
Unless they engage the R8 in some competition (and if they win big time), I do not see these impacting immediate sales...
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shin said:Quote:
Jeannot said:Quote:
Crash said:
but the Audi Quattro and their Le Mans participation in recent years do suggest that they aren't as clueless as people think.
Same argument could be use with Citroen (WRC rally) and Renault (F1)
Also, did really Audi face big competition at Le Mans?
I don't think so...
Unless they engage the R8 in some competition (and if they win big time), I do not see these impacting immediate sales...
?? You do know where the name 'R8' comes from, don't you?
Feb 8, 2007 5:18:15 PM