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    Very Bad News

    Hey guys,

    I have some very bad news to share...My father purchased an 07 Tarag 4S not more than a month ago. I posted a thread about three weeks ago about a small oil leak under the car, I thought it was cosmoline, my father did not so we took it into the local Pcar Dealer to get inspected. Upon further inspection they saw a bolt that might have been the problem. The mechanic tightened and resealed the bolt...the engine was still leaking oil while running. After this "fix", there was only on possible reason for the leak...there is a half case seal leak. The bonding material between the two halves of the engine block did not bond correctly and now, after only 200 miles (though the oil leak was on our garage floor since day one), our new Porsche has a serious problem. Service says there is no way we could have created the problem and we have also been driving the car under 4,000 RPM's at all times.

    Of course, my father and I are very upset. I am sure Porsche will put a new engine in the car, but both of us do not want that. My dad bought this car as in investment and now it needs a new engine? My dad's stance is firm, and he says he wants a new car of equal value, though I am not sure how likely this will happen?

    All in all, its been a pretty horrible day. For a car not more than an month old with very low miles this is crazy. This is the most internal leak an engine could have, so how could this get by Porsche? How could it get by in a PDI?

    We are waiting to hear from the Porsche Rep's to see how we are going to approach this and what Porsche can do.

    Re: Very Bad News

    Sorry to hear about the P-car troubles. It is never fun dealing with such events whether it be the engine or just a squeak. Do a search here on Rennteam about engine replacments. A few posters have had them. It isn't that "scary" of a task. The only thing I would make sure is that they cover the replacement engine with a 4 year warranty, to match the rest of your warranty.

    Re: Very Bad News

    What was your dealership?

    Re: Very Bad News

    I'm very sorry to hear that - hope it can be resolved!

    However, if you receive your money back, I would certainly consider a different car if you are looking for an investment. The T4S is going to depreciate just as rapidly as any other garden-variety 997.

    In fact, only the 997 GT3RS of the current 911 range has a chance to become collectible and even that is a long-shot. Your best bet for an investment-grade Porsche is to buy an old one...

    997 not an investment!

    Sorry to hear about the problem, but a replacement engine will make the car as good as new. These days they pop them in and out like putting a new battery in a camera. Once done the car wil be perfect.

    But as for the 997 being an investment...you have a greater chance of making money from Enron. If you can't stand to own it any longer I would stuff my money into Apple, Google, or P&G and let your investment make you money rather than lose 50% of it's value over the next 3 years.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    We bought the car in St. Louis while on a trip, so that would be Parktown Porsche

    The service center we went to is Beechmont Porsche. I used to work at Beechmont (and also Northland) so they took care of us.

    Along the investment lines, I mean as a personal investment, one to make him happy. I know he wouldn't consider selling it (if the car didn't have this problem). He still has his '86 911 with 14,000 miles!

    We have not heard back from Beechmont yet. They said it will most likely be tomorrow that we will know something.

    What are your thoughts guys? Do you think there is a chance for a new car in this extreme case? 200 Miles with a production engine problem? Do you think Porsche would just refund?

    About the engine replacement...I know they can drop them in and drop them out very easily...but it would just not "feel" the same to drive it, knowing that you had to replace the engine at 200 Miles, you know? I have no doubt the mechanics would be able to perform this surgery without a hitch. My dad also thinks that during the transplant, things will get knicked and scratched and all those kind of things, and if you haven't figured it out yet...He's kind of anal about his cars being clean and scratch/dent free, so this engine problem has put us all in a daze.

    I'll update as soon as I know anything else.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    If Porsche changes your engine, I'm confident the car will be great BUT (1) what about your experience: how will this affect your feelings towards the car? (2) how will it affect the resale value of the car? Just a couple of thoughts to consider. I hope you fight hard for the best possible outcome! Best of luck.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    If Porsche changes your engine, I'm confident the car will be great BUT (1) what about your experience: how will this affect your feelings towards the car? (2) how will it affect the resale value of the car? Just a couple of thoughts to consider. I hope you fight hard for the best possible outcome! Best of luck.



    You hit the nail on the head!

    We have been told that replacing the engine will help the resale...I don't know if I beleive that. If I was buying a car with a new engine I would be both confident and concerned about the vehicle.

    Re: Very Bad News

    I'm also very sorry to hear that, and even more for a car that is completely new, out of factory!!

    This time happened to your dad, but it can happen to anyone of us!!

    Also I would follow Grant sugestion, a targa 4S is not an investment by any chance, it will depreciate as any 997....

    I think I would purchase rather a 997 gt3 or even better an RS for investment, BUT letting the years pass, without driving her at all....But what's the point of that???

    Targa 4S is very similar to 997 gt3 price tag, and if we push a little more we are in RS area

    Re: Very Bad News

    Most probably they will re-build the brand new engine you have. That's the only way to get to the seals, take the engine apart. Contact Porsche of North America and get them involved ASAP. Sorry to hear and good luck.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    I figure they sold you a DEFECTIVE car. You did not buy and then drive a "quality-assured" car which subsequently broke down and legitimizes warrenty repairs.

    IOW, when you drove the car off the lot it was ALREADY f'ed up.

    So they should have sold you the car WITH YOU KNOWING BY THEM TELLING YOU: it would need a new engine (obviously you would not have bought it).

    My bet is the DEALERSHIP knew this car was messed up (from pre-delivery inpection) and calculated it would be BETTER FOR THEM to sell you the messed-up car first OR they did not perform a pre-delivery inspection.

    Re: Very Bad News

    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    Most probably they will re-build the brand new engine you have. That's the only way to get to the seals, take the engine apart. Contact Porsche of North America and get them involved ASAP. Sorry to hear and good luck.


    None of the Porsche dealers do significant engine warranty work - they just send the damaged motor to Germany and replace it with a new or rebuilt unit. I think it would take many months if you wanted to keep the same motor...

    Re: Very Bad News

    I wouldn't be concerned at all. In fact, I'd prefer a new engined car than a 'fixed' original one. My experience is that local techs are largely 'parts changers' and have no business mucking around in the intracacies of the motor. Leave that for the factory. They have the voodoo, your locals do not.

    A crate motor from Porsche is the preferred solution.

    A new car would be great, but unlikely. I would NOT let that affect how you feel about the car. Listen, these things are complex mechanical devices and there is a certain defect rate. The car will not have been bastardized, compromised or otherwise 'lessened' b/c it got a heart transplant.

    The only drawback is the going through the break in period again!

    Cheers.

    Re: Very Bad News

    I have complete and total confidence in Beechmont and would have absolutely no qualms about the techs replacing the engine on my 997s or my Cayenne Turbo S. In fact, one of the techs has serviced numerous P cars for me over the past 25 years; most recently, a PSE was installed on the 997s. I believe your will find the workmanship meticulous and of the very best quality and, as a concour enthusiast and participant, I am fully confident that if a replacement engine is required, the car will be returned in perfect condition. If they can satisfy me (and they do), you have no worries.

    Re: Very Bad News

    Quote:
    SchH III said:
    I have complete and total confidence in Beechmont and would have absolutely no qualms about the techs replacing the engine on my 997s or my Cayenne Turbo S.



    I'm sorry to have contrasting feelings.

    I figure the best installation of the engine is done at the factory. Everything subsequent to that has a huge mess-up potential.

    If I were backed into a corner and HAD to have my engine replaced I would INSIST the tech had a SINGULAR FOCUS on my car and did nothing else until the job was completed.

    Since this is probably not likely in a dealership because of the wait for parts, the car sits on the lift all day, the guy takes coffee breaks, he has a buddy do some of the work, etc.; I would be concerned that he'd be set up to do a substandard job (compared to efficient, prepared, trained factory-designed, one-way installation at factory).


    Re: Very Bad News

    I see everyones point and these are all things we have considered.

    On Beechmont...I have no worries about their technicians as well. I frequently visited the service area and watched the technicians and know they do very good work and are careful.

    On the other hand, in my view along with my dads (and some others on this thread) the factory knows how to do it best, knowing the car had to have a new engine would make it feel odd to me, I personally would not like it.

    Porsche really needs to step up to the plate here.

    Could this leak be found on the PDI?

    SchH III, Where in Kentucky do you live?

    Re: Very Bad News

    P will just fix the problem unless you fight tooth and nail. It sucks but the car you got is the luck of the draw. Maybe have them throw in an extended, extended warranty or something. But, of all the cases on here like this P almost always just fix the problem. There may be other instances of car replacement but those people just quietly fade away and you never hear about it again.

    Re: Very Bad News

    I believe instead of just having PCNA involve, you must get the selling dealer involve in order for that to happen. Just PCNA, I don't see how they will or should give you a new car. After all, your selling dealer is the party selling you the car. Do whatever it takes to get the selling dealer involve and you should have a better chance. Wish you luck and feel sorry to what happened to you. Once all the dust is settle, you will enjoy your new car.

    Not that big a deal

    I had the motor changed on my Turbo at 1000 miles because of excessive oil usage. They send over a new crate motor complete with exhaust and swap it out. Shouldn't affect resale value. Wasn't an issue at all when i sold it. I also agree with others that these cars for the most part do not make good investments. I think it's unlikely Porsche will replace the car.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    I also had my engine replaced by porsche. No issues at all. Don't worry about it.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Christ some of you are an anal, misinformed bunch.

    An engine swap is NO BIG DEAL. Getting into the internals of the motor is. Engine swaps are direct bolt up, no voodoo, paint by numbers.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    If Porsche changes your engine, I'm confident the car will be great BUT (1) what about your experience: how will this affect your feelings towards the car? (2) how will it affect the resale value of the car? Just a couple of thoughts to consider. I hope you fight hard for the best possible outcome! Best of luck.



    You hit the nail on the head!

    We have been told that replacing the engine will help the resale...I don't know if I beleive that. If I was buying a car with a new engine I would be both confident and concerned about the vehicle.



    OK, I can see getting a new motor if you have 1000's of miles already but we are talking BRAND NEW CAR HERE!!! Be real.

    Under no circumstances would I ever accept anything other than a NEW - equal or better - car.

    Get a lawyer quickly. Like NOW. If you do this, and only this, the matter will be resolved in your favor. You will/should end up with an equal or better brand new car (get the GT3 if you can) - as well as first pick and no wait of future cars.

    If your dealer thinks your car did not lose any value then he should not have any problem selling it to someone else. The fact is that he will have to disclose it's history - which is your point exactly - it's flawed from the start. You should be the last person faced with such a loss - it's your money.

    The possible scenario mentioned already - that the dealership knew they were letting you take ownership of a leaking car, and that this would be less trouble for them - is worthy of a major $$$ hand-slapping and any lawyer and Porsche legal representative knows this.

    Get a 'Denny Crane' type and you will be overjoyed at the outcome - and so will we when we get the update.

    I am tired of post where the customer rolls over for 1000's in damages. You are entitled to be outraged that a new car was not offered right away without question.

    I know running to lawyers seems excessive at times but in some cases they are indispensable. You will be shocked at the difference in outcome vs. trying to do this yourself. This is not a complaint about a scratch on an old car!

    Keep in mind that experts at Porsche are guiding the dealership in dealing with this type of situation. They have performance goals tied to mitigating the cost of keeping customers happy and avoiding legal suits. From what I can tell reading similar post here THEY HAVE MET THESE GOALS! If they just replace your engine it's a best case scenario for them, NOT YOU. Once a lawyer goes after them for you they will be MUCH more responsive. Don't waste your time doing this yourself. You will only make it more difficult for your representative.

    I am looking forward to how your lawyer got you a new car. Thank me later! It would be a nice precedent and others here with similar issues would certainly appreciate it.


    Drive Right! Rechts Fahren!

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    OK, so a lawyer will get this fella a GT3, and pick for some future car.

    I don't know what to say.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Christ some of you are an anal, misinformed bunch.

    An engine swap is NO BIG DEAL. Getting into the internals of the motor is. Engine swaps are direct bolt up, no voodoo, paint by numbers.



    My dealer can't even change the air filter without screwing it together wrong! For years they have caused more problems than they have corrected, don't get me started. Just cause it can be done fast does not mean it can't be screwed up. No way I would accept a motor if the car is BRAND NEW and leaking.

    Sorry, I love the 911- it's a shame I don't trust the local service.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    So use a different dealer.

    Popping in a crate motor is not a big deal.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    OK, so a lawyer will get this fella a GT3, and pick for some future car.

    I don't know what to say.



    Pigeon or Statue - I pick Pigeon in this case. I prefer to give advice that is helpful and reasonable. I do not feel bad about that.

    Do you have some really good reason for why he should be happy with his purchase that I have not discovered?

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    So use a different dealer.

    Popping in a crate motor is not a big deal.



    Would love to go to a different dealer but the next one is 80 miles away.

    It's not a matter of the install being easy (how many have you done?). It's that he deserved a NEW, PERFECT car. If there is nothing wrong with the new motor then the dealer should have no problem selling the car, with full disclosure, to someone else - who is fully aware of the history. Again, if this car had even 2,000 miles on it or more the crate motor solution would be fantastic. 100 % acceptable.
    Peace

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Christ some of you are an anal, misinformed bunch.

    An engine swap is NO BIG DEAL. Getting into the internals of the motor is. Engine swaps are direct bolt up, no voodoo, paint by numbers.



    I agree. This thread seems like one gross overreaction after another. I had my transmission replaced a few months after I got the car and never thought twice about it. I have daily driven it for two years without a single issue.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Quote:
    frayed said:
    OK, so a lawyer will get this fella a GT3, and pick for some future car.

    I don't know what to say.



    Pigeon or Statue - I pick Pigeon in this case. I prefer to give advice that is helpful and reasonable. I do not feel bad about that.



    Helpful and reasonable? Under what basis should he even remotely be deserving of a new car, let alone a GT3 and a pick on some future car? He's got an oil leak and he'll get a complete and undetectable fix with a crate motor. There's not a person on the planet who would be able to detect a difference. . b/c there is none!

    I'd like to hear the foundation justifying the generous PAG/PCNA response. I'm sure he could find some egg salad eating half drunk atty to argue with PCNA, but not a good one, who would counsel him that he has a very thin basis for anything beyond a new motor. (I am an atty).

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Do you have some really good reason for why he should be happy with his purchase that I have not discovered?



    Absolutely! Because he has one of finest Porsches ever produced, and post heart transplant will be the same but w/o spewing oil on his garage floor. The issue with devaluation is completely in his head.

    I had a 997S and they are stunning machines. If a weird flaw req'd a transplant, my only reservation would be (i) downtime in some crappy Cayenne loaner and (ii) starting break in again.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    Quote:
    frayed said:
    So use a different dealer.

    Popping in a crate motor is not a big deal.



    Would love to go to a different dealer but the next one is 80 miles away.

    It's not a matter of the install being easy (how many have you done?). It's that he deserved a NEW, PERFECT car. If there is nothing wrong with the new motor then the dealer should have no problem selling the car, with full disclosure, to someone else - who is fully aware of the history. Again, if this car had even 2,000 miles on it or more the crate motor solution would be fantastic. 100 % acceptable.
    Peace



    Prior to becoming a white collar criminal, I spent most of my days under the hood of a car.

     
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