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    Jul 12, 2017 8:46:27 PM

    GaussM
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    Gauss
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    Today I did another factory visit

    and I could gather the following information:

    • in the future there won't be any more motors produced by Porsche. Instead, there will only be VW engines, that will be tweaked (resp. tuned) by Porsche, if they put it into a Porsche, or by VW, if they put it into a VW obviously. 
    • Miami Blue in the flesh looks superb under artificial light. But this is a personal observation. 
    • Currently there are a lot of GT3 being build, going out to all parts of the world, from the USA to China etc. and I was lucky to witness the Body-to-Chassis marriage of a GT3 
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • It takes about 3,5 hours to build a boxer engine and 6 hours to complete the whole car. 
    • There are 9000 employees in Zuffenhausen, only half of them are installing the car.
    • They are completely dedicated to electric powered vehicles in the future and have invested over 1 billion Eur in order to keep the facilities in Zuffenhausen (they could have gone and build it for much cheaper elsewhere).
    • CUP cars are being build on the same production line like all others, except for the part where they build the interior. Because of the rollcage, they can't use the usual tools and have to do it in a more cumbersome way.
    • Only the true race cars, like the LMP1, RSR etc are built in Weissach.

    I probably remember more, once I hit the Post button Smiley

     

    Jul 12, 2017 9:17:53 PM

    CGX car nut
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    What does your first point mean with regard to the boxer motors, both four cylinder and six cylinder variants?  Does this imply that the boxer motor, a Porsche icon for over seventy years, will be retired and replaced with Vee style motors?  If so, that is a very large negative for Porsche and its followers.

    Jul 12, 2017 9:33:58 PM

    GaussM
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    Gauss
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    Reply to: CGX car nut

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    I'm sorry if I can't be more specific. He was a bit vague, but I'm sure he was saying that the engines won't be 100% produced by Porsche anymore. Maybe it will be some sort of engine that consists of modules and Porsche puts their own modules on the VW block module? This is only my own speculation, mind you, and I have no idea.

    Jul 12, 2017 10:14:14 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    The run in part is more about the rest of the drivetrain, gearbox, diff, bearings etc. 

    Once an engine is up to temperature, which means it is running at spec, being green(new) or not bears no difference. 


    --

     

     

    Jul 12, 2017 10:25:40 PM

    GaussM
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    Gauss
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Ah, thanks Whoopsy, that makes sense wink

    Jul 13, 2017 1:12:58 AM

    Leawood911
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    Reply to: WhoopsyM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Whoopsy:

    The run in part is more about the rest of the drivetrain, gearbox, diff, bearings etc. 

    Once an engine is up to temperature, which means it is running at spec, being green(new) or not bears no difference. 

    Much of the caution was directed at getting the driver in sync with the cars speed. Breaking in the engine sounds better than teaching the driver. (Some need extra time to grow a set). 

    Jul 13, 2017 7:41:24 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
    Posts: 59582, Gallery
    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    • in the future there won't be any more motors produced by Porsche. Instead, there will only be VW engines, that will be tweaked (resp. tuned) by Porsche, if they put it into a Porsche, or by VW, if they put it into a VW obviously. 
    • Miami Blue in the flesh looks superb under artificial light. But this is a personal observation. 
    • Currently there are a lot of GT3 being build, going out to all parts of the world, from the USA to China etc. and I was lucky to witness the Body-to-Chassis marriage of a GT3 
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • It takes about 3,5 hours to build a boxer engine and 6 hours to complete the whole car. 
    • There are 9000 employees in Zuffenhausen, only half of them are installing the car.
    • They are completely dedicated to electric powered vehicles in the future and have invested over 1 billion Eur in order to keep the facilities in Zuffenhausen (they could have gone and build it for much cheaper elsewhere).
    • CUP cars are being build on the same production line like all others, except for the part where they build the interior. Because of the rollcage, they can't use the usual tools and have to do it in a more cumbersome way.
    • Only the true race cars, like the LMP1, RSR etc are built in Weissach.

    I probably remember more, once I hit the Post button Smiley

     

    As far as I remember, not every engine is tested for 5h, only a few (random sample survey). This is impossible. Instead, the engines usually get a "dry" testing under pressure (not sure how this works but I think they pump compressed air into the engine...).

    The running in, as far as I have been explained it by an engineer, is required because they are afraid that some parts will malfunction/fail and/or are not properly mounted (manufacturing error), so... Smiley

    Of course it is possible they changed the process, the last time I was in Zuffenhausen (production) was years ago.

    The engine thing actually means that Porsche won't develop their engines alone anymore, not that VW takes the lead here. They need to make engines which can be used for various models and platforms, this is why. No worries that these engines won't be "good", Porsche will always will be involved in the development from the start.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    Jul 13, 2017 9:45:33 AM

    sfo Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    I would be amazed if every single GT3 engine was run for 10 hours .. just imagine how time consuming that must be. It must be a sample as RC says

    dry run means, I think, they simply turn the crankshaft without firing the engine

    Jul 13, 2017 9:48:32 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: sfo

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    sfo:

    I would be amazed if every single GT3 engine was run for 10 hours .. just imagine how time consuming that must be. It must be a sample as RC says

    dry run means, I think, they simply turn the crankshaft without firing the engine

    No, they really run the engine under some sort of pressure (not sure how they do that)...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

    Jul 13, 2017 12:59:02 PM

    SciFrog Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    For comparaison my AM V8 roadster took 200 hours to build angry

    Jul 13, 2017 1:01:07 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: SciFrog

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    SciFrog:

    For comparaison my AM V8 roadster took 200 hours to build angry

    Those lazy English bastards... Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    Jul 13, 2017 1:07:13 PM

    GaussM
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Jul 13, 2017 1:37:21 PM

    bobr
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    RC  Any insights on first bullet point? Will Porsche continue engine design but outsource engine manufacturing to VW?


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York

    Jul 13, 2017 1:45:16 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: bobr

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    bobr:

    RC  Any insights on first bullet point? Will Porsche continue engine design but outsource engine manufacturing to VW?

    There is no outsourcing, there has been a misunderstanding or that particular person didn't explain it well.

    Every brand in the VW Group will have certain platforms and base engines "available" for their products/models and development goes hand in hand with the developers of that particular brand.

    Take the new 2.9 V6 Biturbo engine which basically a collaboration between Audi and Porsche. They decided on an engine base with certain specs and then they developed their own version of it, at first together and then everyone adapting it to their needs. 

    Don't worry, VW engineers will not entirely develop Porsche engines. This cannot even work.

    Also, I'm not sure it takes only 6 hours to build a GT3 because as far as I remember, it took over 100 hours (don't have the precise number) to build a 911 Carrera just a few years ago.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    Jul 13, 2017 2:09:20 PM

    bobr
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    RC Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought. However, having spent some time providing IT consulting to the US auto industry, I wouldn't be surprised to see major components, such as electric engines built in one factory and used by multiple brands. The 6 hours may reflect vehicle assembly time and not the time to build all the sub assemblies/components that go into a 911.  I believe the number is still too low. 

    Enjoy that R8 this weekend. We are supposed to have beautiful weather here in the US Northeast, so will have my 991 out  for a few long drives. 

     


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York

    Jul 13, 2017 2:18:12 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: bobr

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    bobr:

    RC Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought. However, having spent some time providing IT consulting to the US auto industry, I wouldn't be surprised to see major components, such as electric engines built in one factory and used by multiple brands. The 6 hours may reflect vehicle assembly time and not the time to build all the sub assemblies/components that go into a 911.  I believe the number is still too low. 

    I agree. Smiley 

    Enjoy that R8 this weekend. We are supposed to have beautiful weather here in the US Northeast, so will have my 991 out  for a few long drives. 

     

    Excellent idea and yes, I will enjoy my car as well this weekend. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     

    Jul 13, 2017 3:39:37 PM

    WhoopsyM Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    RC:
    sfo:

    I would be amazed if every single GT3 engine was run for 10 hours .. just imagine how time consuming that must be. It must be a sample as RC says

    dry run means, I think, they simply turn the crankshaft without firing the engine

    No, they really run the engine under some sort of pressure (not sure how they do that)...

     

    air pressure, compress air.


    --

     

     

    Jul 14, 2017 7:32:09 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    • in the future there won't be any more motors produced by Porsche. Instead, there will only be VW engines, that will be tweaked (resp. tuned) by Porsche, if they put it into a Porsche, or by VW, if they put it into a VW obviously. 
    •  

    No way - this one of Porsche's core competence and USP. They will never do this, who claims this nonsense?

    Jul 14, 2017 7:33:57 AM

    MKSGRM
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    MKSGR
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    •  
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • . 

    This seems wrong as well - the GT3 engines come from the same line as the other engines. Nearly all engines are only cold tested (i.e. without being started at all).

     

    Jul 14, 2017 7:34:33 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    MKSGR:
    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    •  
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • . 

    This seems wrong as well - the GT3 engines come from the same line as the other engines. Nearly all engines are only cold tested (i.e. without being started at all).

     

    I guess the guy giving you the tour was not so knowledgable...

    Jul 14, 2017 7:49:16 AM

    GaussM
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    MKSGR:
    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    •  
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • . 

    This seems wrong as well - the GT3 engines come from the same line as the other engines. Nearly all engines are only cold tested (i.e. without being started at all).

     

    I'm afraid that you are wrong here. This is my second visit and on both occasions did the guides say that the GT3 is always hot tested! He said it's because of the magnesium parts and they have to make sure that it is robust and not leaky. 

    99% of all other engines are cold tested, 1% hot tested.

    Jul 14, 2017 8:46:07 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: GaussM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    Gauss:
    MKSGR:
    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    •  
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • . 

    This seems wrong as well - the GT3 engines come from the same line as the other engines. Nearly all engines are only cold tested (i.e. without being started at all).

     

    I'm afraid that you are wrong here. This is my second visit and on both occasions did the guides say that the GT3 is always hot tested! He said it's because of the magnesium parts and they have to make sure that it is robust and not leaky. 

    99% of all other engines are cold tested, 1% hot tested.

    Strange... In the past (2016) I am sure this was not the case. Also, in 2016 I saw many (!) GT3 engines coming of the regular assembly line. To my knowledge Porsche would not even have the equipment any longer to do hot tests in larger numbers Smiley Where did you get this info from?

    Jul 14, 2017 10:28:45 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: Today I did another factory visit

    MKSGR:
    Gauss:
    MKSGR:
    Gauss:

    and I could gather the following information:

    •  
    • The engine of the GT3 is tested by letting it run twice for 5h, which equals to roughly 1800 km. This makes me wonder why we still have to do the running in?
    • . 

    This seems wrong as well - the GT3 engines come from the same line as the other engines. Nearly all engines are only cold tested (i.e. without being started at all).

     

    I'm afraid that you are wrong here. This is my second visit and on both occasions did the guides say that the GT3 is always hot tested! He said it's because of the magnesium parts and they have to make sure that it is robust and not leaky. 

    99% of all other engines are cold tested, 1% hot tested.

    Strange... In the past (2016) I am sure this was not the case. Also, in 2016 I saw many (!) GT3 engines coming of the regular assembly line. To my knowledge Porsche would not even have the equipment any longer to do hot tests in larger numbers Smiley Where did you get this info from?

    Basically impossible. They have one or two hot engine test facilities in the manufacturing facility in Zuffenhausen as far as I remember but maybe after that 991.1 GT3 engine "disaster"? Who knows. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     
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