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    C2S vs C4S

    Anyone have experience of both the C2S and C4S? How do they differ?

    I have heard that the C2S is the purer drive but what do they mean by "purer"?

    Is the C4S better handling because of the weight increase at the front? Does the C4S nose bob less because of this weight?

    Is the steering firmer on the C4S?

    Any other differences?

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    There is a massive, massive difference between the two.

    Speaking as someone that made the "mistake" of buying a 996 Turbo over a 996 GT3. Despite the turbo being the best car I've ever owned I would still say that: 1) Naturally aspirated engines are more charismatic than forced induction engines, and pertinant to your questions rear wheel drives offer much nicer steering that 4x4s.

    The main difference is that is very difficult to get a 4x4 to handle neutrally. This means that the car tends neither to oversteer or understeer. Porsche 4x4s are better than most, but innevitably suffer from more understeer than the rear wheel drive brothers.

    Also the C4S is heavier and when the base car has great grip the higher grup is more than negated by the extra weight.

    I'd always advise a keen driver to go rear wheel drive over 4x4 except if you live somewhere like the Swiss Alps where there is frequently lots of snow and ice. In this case the extra grip and securitity of 4x4 pays big dividends.

    Try both 2wd and 4wd on a track to see the difference for yourself.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I think the 911 C4 design is excellent, even on dry pavement.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    if i recall when i test drove both, the c4 just went and went, it had not much less response to throttle inputs compared to the c2 which showed great on-off throttle transitions so you could literally steer the car with the throttle, definitely more involving, but also more unsettling to the unitiated. also when accelerating, the c2 felt like it squatted and lightened up the nose ever so slightly where as the c4 just went and felt like ot lifted and was more parallel to the ground.(?...)
    my take is for the non-completely committed enthusiast and porsche nut the c4 is a much safer and faster car which is excellent overall wet or dry, but for the driver seeking thrills and wanting more involvement then the c2 wins hands down and in the proper hands is no slower possibly faster. everyone should have one of each...for changing moods and wheather conditions...

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    My amateur us$.02?

    Get the C4S if you live in Scandanavia or similar place where snow's fun to be around and to drive thru.

    Get the C4S if you want to beat a C2S on a wet track when it's raining.


    Re: C2S vs C4S

    You're based in the UK. If conditions where you live are tough e.g. regular snow each winter, icy roads etc, there's a good case for getting the C4S for greater traction benefits.

    There are some differences between the C2S and the C4S which are all set out in the 911 brochure e.g. the enhanced braking system in the C4S, the wider rear (44mm i.e. 2.2cm each side), wheel sizes, slightly smaller front boot etc etc. You can easily get all this info from reading the brochure carefully.

    What I suspect you are really after is some guidance on how they are to drive. I have test driven the C4S and I own a C2S. I am therefore biased in favour of the latter.

    The C4S feels heavier to drive (not because of the extra weight) but because of the heavier steering. It feels very planted and safe. I found the steering a little too heavy for my liking.

    The C2S when pushing hard squats down onto its rear wheels ever so slightly and the front goes ever so slightly lighter. The steering feels light and agile. The whole car feels nimble.

    Don't get me wrong - just because the steering can go slightly light, you don't lose confidence. I still feel like the front wheels are biting enough to be able to steer very assuredly.

    I drove to visit family today for xmas. I was doing about 100mph in places. The thrill I get driving a C2S on high speed bends is simply an adrenaline rush. I recommend it wholeheartedly.

    Hope this helps.

    Bottom line: try both - see which you prefer. Good luck!

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I really like my C2S but never tried the C4S. I think it is a good idea to ask around prior to test drive so I can spot the differences more easily.

    I fancy a change since I saw this beauty: web page

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I think the 911 C4 design is excellent, even on dry pavement.



    Me too. But I think the C2S is better. Have you tried both? If so, fair play to you. If not, give the C2S a try and keep an open mind.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Quote:
    catdog said:
    if i recall when i test drove both, the c4 just went and went, it had not much less response to throttle inputs compared to the c2 which showed great on-off throttle transitions so you could literally steer the car with the throttle, definitely more involving, but also more unsettling to the unitiated. also when accelerating, the c2 felt like it squatted and lightened up the nose ever so slightly where as the c4 just went and felt like ot lifted and was more parallel to the ground.(?...)
    my take is for the non-completely committed enthusiast and porsche nut the c4 is a much safer and faster car which is excellent overall wet or dry, but for the driver seeking thrills and wanting more involvement then the c2 wins hands down and in the proper hands is no slower possibly faster. everyone should have one of each...for changing moods and wheather conditions...



    I agree with you totally, catdog, buddy.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I too have experience with both but both cabriolets. My sister husband received deliver of 2007 C4S cab and I have 2006 C2S cab. This is just my experience, but my C2S cab felt lighter and most definitely faster. He even complained that his C4S cab felt heavy. I think if you live in weather with lots snow/or rain consider the C4S. But I driven my car in the rain and have never had any problems with C2S plus it's about 10k cheaper. You do get the wide body look, but is that worth the money.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    easy_rider describes the difference perfectly !

    I have also driven both extensively ( own the C4S )

    To make it short:

    C2S : lighter steering feel , more sporty feel, needs more concentration, more involving, fun

    C4S: more planted, neutral feel,feels more secure at high speeds, more relaxing as you can easily hold steering wheel with two fingers, more GT feel


    The C2S will be more fun, but I doubt a non professional driver will be faster with it around lots of turns.

    The C4S pulls very hard and quick out of bends and I have been faster with it coming out of corners then C2S on the track.

    However it is less fun and I bought it for security reasons ( snow in winter, my 1st 911, often wet roads, but my next one will be a C2S )

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Quote:
    Gnil said:
    C4S: ...neutral feel...




    The C4S understeers when pushed.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Hi and Merry Christmass to you all.

    I have tried one C4S Last week. The fact that anoys me and even the Porsche dealer is that you cant really steer the car with the throtle input.

    It also feels heavier and I agrre 100% with easy rider. Now if a driver is not so confindent of his driving skills or he lives in a country with poor meteorolical conditions then a C4S is a very good thing especially if his....wife might use the car (under a lot of pressure in my case and only if a matter of life or death )

    Both cars are fantastic the good thing about porsche is the choise issue. Now if they could make a wider rear C2 S then ....!

    Florent

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I had two 996 C4Ss and now have a 997 C2S. While I'm sure the 997 C4S is much better than the 996 iteration, I will say that all-wheel drive does make the car feel more planted, heavier, and less nimble. For that reason, I decided to go with rear-wheel-drive-only in my 997.

    And the result is that the car is much more fun to drive than my previous C4Ss.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I am pretty sure now I will be sticking to the C2S but will try one to see for myself.

    Thanks for all your inputs.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I'd echo the comments of easy rider.

    My main advice though is that half and hour or even a full hour in each is not really enough to make a decision. Especially if you are new to Porsches as a whole. By the time the sales person takes you out and then hands over to you, the test drive will be over before you know it. That's certainly how it felt for me the very first time I took one out. Until you are more familiar with P-cars, you will be learning how they drive compared to all other cars rather than the difference between a C2 and C4. See if your dealership will let you take each one for an extended period of time, a couple of days to really get a feel of the difference... you will be stuck with your Pounds80k decision for some years, so best try to get it right for YOU. This will not be easy, but if you are serious about buying, and your salesperson knows that, they might be able to help you out with some test cars.

    FYI I've owned a C2S for 2 years now and enjoy driving like a hobby. I've had a T4S for a couple of weeks now and the main difference between RWD and AWD is the AWD is noticeably more planted.

    You can really give the car a lot of throttle on corners and roundabouts and the car will just stick, no complaints or tyre noise. For turns and corners, as you increase your speed in a C4S, you will feel no slide until you reach the speed at which the car loses grip; here the car will start to understeer until you reduce the speed to regain turn in. Same scenario in the C2S and you will have front end lift and maybe a little front end bobbing and twitching (good fun though). The point to take from this is that in a C2S, you will feel the lateral G force as part of the car, whilst in a C4S, you as a driver will feel the lateral G force inside the car, which doesn't. Overall, the C4S is easier to handle in these situations.

    My other comments would be...

    Off the line, it is easier to get the power to road with the AWD with minimal loss of traction. With the C2S, until you are good with the clutch (which tbf, won't take you long if you buy one) you may get rear end wheel hop and loss of traction if you try to launch the car. Therefore, the C4S will feel faster for a "newer" driver.

    Upwards of 150mph, the C2 pulls more than the C4. Upwards of 165mph, I find the AWD slower and heavier, as mentioned by easy rider. The C2S will top out over 180mph whilst the T4S will not go more than high 170s which might explain why the C2S feels like it gives a little more grunt at very high speeds. This will not be a factor for normal driving such as when you need to overtake on A and B roads.

    Something that you will get from both cars is a big grin when you take it out for a drive.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Very interesting comments Ronnie. I fully agree with you.

    One other general comment. Some people might be considering buying a C4/C4S because they have a lot of snowfall, sleet, ice or black ice in their area. Sure, the C4/C4S will certainly help with traction. However, driving a C4/C4S with summer tyres in such adverse weather/road conditions hoping that the AWD of the C4/C4S will be enough is still a mistake.

    For safety, one should really be using winter tyres preferably with another set of wheels specifically for this purpose. As such, for winter use, a C2/C2S with winter tyres will be perfectly sufficient/adequate for such road/weather conditions. Of course, a C4/C4S with winter tyres is even better.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    One thing to keep in mind, the C4S does NOT have the same advanced 4WD system of the 997TT.

    David

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Driving and owning both, I would take the C2S. 1st of all the width is not that noticeable as they are both pretty wide in the rear. The C4S does feel safer and less aggressive under hard driving and at the same time the C4S feels less communicative with the driver than the C2S. It's like the C4S has it's mind made to do what it wants to while the C2S talks back to the driver. You show the car what you have got that car will immediately respond; oh yeh, look what I have got Both are fantastic cars and both are a pleasure to drive. To each his own, drive what floats your boat.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Quote:
    edz61 said: ... the C2S talks back to the driver...



    Exactly! For instance, on Monday, I was driving on a smooth road with very thin expansion joints at regular intervals. I was holding the steering wheel very lightly with the fingertips of both hands. (Bear in mind that I have a C2S with -20mm sports suspension so I always have to drive with BOTH hands). I could feel every tiny little sensation tip-tapping on my fingertips. It felt amazing! Like the steering was literally 'talking to me'. I have never experienced this phenomenon before to this degree with cars I have driven previously.

    The only words I can use to describe this experience is that it was truly a revelation!

    My God, I love this car!!!

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    easy-rider911, I can totally relate, I have had all Porsche's Turbo's 928's, Targa's, C4S's and for some reason my 06 C2S I am just in love it. I have several cars but the C2S just drive me nuts when I drive it. I was at the dealer looking at the 997TT, awsome car but I could not part with my car at least not yet. Yes love is it my friend

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    That's an interesting thread with a lot of valuable comments. I just thought about that very issue a few days ago. Porsche did not only provide a huge variety of models for almost any need, let alone the Carrera models can be set up in amazingly plenty ways.

    Starting with three different suspension options (std, PASM, -20mm) the handling characteristics and communication to the driver satisfy three different needs. Yet the two and four wheel drive models offer two independent characters for different target groups, the supporter of the pure and traditional concept of the 911 on the one, the more safety-oriented customer that is also in the market for a Lexus, Mercedes or BMW. The fact, that the Targa comes in 4WD configuration just adds to that story, especially since it is said to be the model with the highest percentage of automatic transmissions.

    Apart from the rear track and AWD concept, the stabilizer bars are different. The model's suspension setup is specifically designed to provide a different impression.

    Re: C2S vs C4S v NSX v 355/360 v Gallardo - Owner's view

    Great Forum - used to use the US Boards a lot but very good exchange of info/tips here too it seems.

    For what its worth have owned around 15 Porsches now (both 2 and 4, coupe and cab, turbo, turbo S, turbo cab, 996s and 997s - both tip and manuals - also 355, 360, Gallardo, Murcielago, NSX, so some interesting comparison points also arise) and have lived with the same across the Single / Married / Now With Kids spectrum!

    I suppose the answer is there is no perfect 911 that would suit all.

    I think the other answer is also, if I may say so, that one needs to avoid all the typical machismo "B/S" that is often spouted about these cars and whether one is a real "man" or can "handle" the 2 wheel drive cars.

    I have done a lot of racing, track days, karting over 20 years or so now, enjoy blasts at the "Ring" and have also had a lot of tuition from people who really know their stuff - as a result I would say I'm at a reasonably respectable level in terms of car control etc. and do certainly drive my cars hard or "properly" when conditions/circumstances allow.

    My two pennies worth is that the majority of Porsche buyers (I'm mainly thinking of the typical new car buyer you see when doing a factory collection rather than out and out racer/track nut) will never fully exploit the performance of a 2 or a 4 but that a 4 will better look after them when they push beyond the limits of their own ability or if conditions catch them out).

    I personally am a fan of mid-engined cars - loved my NSX which is a superb and massively underrated car - ditto the Lambos even with 4WD and notwithstanding lousy brakes and ditto the Ferraris. The 911 cannot escape the laws of physics and on public roads the 4 is certainly a safer and easier drive - eg one can typically apply full power mid bend and it just grips/squats whereas the 2 can be unsettled and twitchy. I also find the 4 more stable generally on a fast flowing country lane for example.

    The 2s "bobbing" nose can get very annoying when pressing on compared to the 4 or indeed an NSX etc.

    In fact I am also a huge fan of the boxster / cayman - they handle much better than a 911 full stop. Try a C2 against a cayman or boxster S on some twisty B roads - you will be in for a surprise (I was and the roads were in the Lake District UK by the way) - the former will be flat out composed and the 2 an entertaining but at times frustrating and nervous "bobber".

    Porsche (with the profits they derive from the 911 etc) are understandably nervous about increasing the power of either too much as it would (as a driving tool) show up the 911 flaws no question.

    If you want to have fun on a track drifting the tail out, "smoking" the tyres etc yes a 2 will be better for that. My preference was always Stirling Moss fast and smooth as opposed to say Nigel Mansell aggression.

    A couple of true stories as an aside - the only 911 crashes (touch wood) I know of at first hand relate to friends / fellow track day participants all of whom were pushing C2s when the cars bit them - 2 friends both of whom (on separate occasions) ended up backwards in country ditches (996s) and, the most vivid, a C2 on a track day at Goodwood race track actually being driven by the instructor who lost the tail mid bend with a resulting high speed (again backwards) crash (car written off, driver and owner shaken but in one piece thankfully). So the 2 can certainly be "entertaining" but whether you are skilled or not you can be bitten.

    It will as you can tell depend a good deal on your driving style and what you want to do with your 911.

    For me, with a small family to now take along on some of my jaunts, the 2 seater days are now gone and the 911 is still an excellent all round sports car. I have however sold my 997 C2S for a 4 and it has nothing to do with lack of driving ability nor lack of the proverbial danglies (as offspring have attested to!) rather everything to do with real world ability (I live in the UK), driving feel (yes the 2 has more feel but don't be fooled the 4 has plenty too and I actually prefer the meatier feel) and point to point speed.

    In conclusion, the choice is, as they say, very much yours but please do drive both cars and consider honestly what you want from your car/what you will use it for/ what your driving ability is. Whatever you do don't rely on too much pub talk, you could miss out on the gem of engineering that is the 4........its certainly this owner's choice.

    BTW - I don't regard the 4 as a "safe" compromise 911 but rather an engineering marvel that has solved some of the 911s C2s inherent design flaws. I wouldn't go back to a 2.

    Hope this post is helpful.

    Rgds
    r

    Re: C2S vs C4S v NSX v 355/360 v Gallardo - Owner's view

    I have only driven a rear wheel drive 911, currently own a 04 GT3. However, my next Porsche, whether I decide to sell mine or get another as an addition will have 4wd.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    A never ending saga - just search it and you'll find this debate goes on an on into the ages. This thread is particularly friendly to the C2, while most others are more balanced.

    A quick word about the understeer mentioned here and elsewhere: 911's naturally understeer. The engine weight over the rear axle makes it very difficult to lose traction with the rear wheels so that under most on the edge conditions, the front wheels will lose traction first, hence, understeer. The car already has a 40/60 front/rear weight bias. Now floor it in a turn, and shift even more weight off the front wheels, and voila, you go straight into the wall, or preferably, onto the grass. Thankfully, the natural tendancy in this situation is to lift off the throttle, which transfers weight onto the front wheels which adds to their grip, allowing the driver to often regain control before reaching the wall/grass.

    Of course, the 911 can be made to oversteer very easily: abruptly lift off of the throttle in a turn, and weight is transferred off of the rear wheels. That reduction in rear wheel grip (and extra front wheel traction), combined with a large polar moment of inertia (created by the weight hanging over the rear end of the car), and the back end will swing out. This is a counterintuitive situation, for to regain control of the car, one must get back on the throttle, which goes against natural instincts. Another way is to "power oversteer": put enough torque on the rear wheels that they overcome their frictional coefficient and spin. The latter is not easy to do with a 911, and the throttle must be applied gently (squeeze, smooth), or else understeer (as described above) occurs first.

    All C4's, with the possible exception of the 997, understeer much more than their C2 counterparts, partly due to something called torque steer. This is also counterintuitive, but when you put torque on the front wheels, part of their traction is used in applying that torque, and part to changing the direction of the car. Because the tractionis shared between these 2 tasks, some of the traction used to change the car's direction is lost (to the other task). This is a gross oversimplification, but it is true, and those of you who have driven front wheel drive cars know it implicitly: they understeer like pigs.

    The 997 was engineered to dial out the understeer of previous C4's, and by most accounts, those efforts have been successful. I plan to test drive one this summer to see for myself, as I remain highly skeptical.

    Am I considering a C4? Absolutely not. The 911 already has incredible amounts of traction because of it's rear engine design. That is it's main design advantage. Thus, to me, there is no need for a C4, unless one plans to drive in low traction conditions frequently, or one is harnessing 500 hp. I want my 911 to be as close to a real sportscar, and as different from any sedan or other driving experience as public roads will allow, so that means RWD. It's got incredible steering feel, and no problems with traction. On rainy or cold days (when tires grip less), one doesn't need AWD, but rather, a small dose of common sense. The C4 costs more, and to me, it's only real advantage is those sexy hips, which I love, but just can't justify (though I would love a 997 GT3 RS, since it's RWD AND has the big hips, not to mention many other fantastic goodies, hehe)

    If I was considering a C4, I'd wait, since the electronic AWD unit on the 997TT is likely to be available on the normally aspirated 911 C4's in the near future. The current viscous coupling unit is old fashioned, and so far, reviews of the 997TT AWD unit are great.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    I own a C2S (cab.) and drove a C4S with the X51 power kit... the C4S has fantastic grip, and the 4 wheel system allows you to do more when in 1st gear... but the "too much grip" kinda takes away from the driving experience, and the rush factor, knowing the car is less demanding of your skills...

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    It handles, it hugs, and it has sexy hips. C4S....perfection.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    The laws of physics still cannot be broken. Rather you have a 2 wheel or 4 wheel drive if you do something wrong you will end up in that same ditch. The difference will be the driver's perception of things at the "limit". There may be more feedback in one car or the other, but same rules apply.
    FWIW I drove both the C2s and C4S prior to purchase and found the C2S more fun to drive. It felt lighter and seemed to turn quicker. The C4S felt heavier and a just a touch slower on turn-in. I liked the responsiveness of the the C2S so I bought it. The next guy/gal may feel those same sensations and interpret that twitchy and unsteady.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Silver Bullet: Thanks for your understeer/oversteer explanation above. I had never totally understood this concept and you did a good job of explaining it and applying the concept to the C2/C4.

    Re: C2S vs C4S

    Excellent post Thanks!

     
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