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    Dec 22, 2006 7:20:49 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Porsches War On Toyota

    http://www.businessweek.com/autos/conten...index+page_news

    Porsche plans to battle Toyota with VW - by applying the same techniques and processes to VW as Porsche did to itself - that it learned from Toyota.

    Dec 22, 2006 10:07:14 AM

    elysium
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    An interesting read, thanks

    Dec 22, 2006 11:57:01 AM

    oliver
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    Reply to: elysium

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    How wouldn't you trust Wiedeking?

    Dec 22, 2006 5:20:50 PM

    Porky Tokyo
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    Reply to: oliver

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    I hate Toyota - I wouldn't mind Porsche / VW taking over the world! They own the best brands. I can't think of one Toyota car I like. The Lexus GS something or other isn't too bad but everything is looks like crap. The other interesting thing for me as a foreigner living in Japan, most Japanese people like non Japanese cars. In my apartment block there is only one Japanese car - owned by a stupid old woman who CANNOT DRIVE.

    Lastly, the cars Toyota offers the international market are way better than what they offer the Jap market. They have something like 35 - 36 different junk models here. Hard to tell them apart.

    Dec 22, 2006 5:55:09 PM

    connoisseur
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    Reply to: Porky Tokyo

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Very interesting, thank you for posting.

    Dec 22, 2006 6:15:14 PM

    stubenhocker
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    Reply to: connoisseur

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Monumental mistake, this is all about ego and the power over Porsche this ego has, due to his control of the voting shares! Wiedeking will do exactly as he is told!
    This will be interesting, but ultimately painful to watch!

    Dec 22, 2006 6:23:51 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: connoisseur

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    It's the same story everywhere.

    The Big Three know a sizeable share of the public will always "buy American". That's how you get disasters like the Explorer or the Cobalt. They're terrible, but they sell anyhow.

    Japanese manufacturers know they have little to fear from foreign competitors in Japan. So, they keep their better cars for Western markets, while the Third World gets the bottom of the barrel.

    French manufacturers routinely price-gouged French customers. It wasn't until the state put its money where its mouth was and started buying Fords instead of Renaults that they lowered their prices and upgraded the standard equipment. That's about as close to an act of God as it gets.

    Fiat gets away with building utter POS because Italian customers still buy them. They hardly sell any cars outside Italy any more, but as long as it's enough to keep the company going, there's no reason to change.

    Customers are jingoistic and manufacturers know it. They'd be stupid not to take advantage of their customers' own stupidity.

    Dec 22, 2006 7:12:07 PM

    roadtrip
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    in toyota the old saying everyone hates a winner is true...ive had a dozen of em of various variants over the years...consistantly they are never broken...reasonably priced to service....look ok...and best of all are easy to sell at strong prices.

    Dec 22, 2006 9:51:20 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Japanese manufacturers know they have little to fear from foreign competitors in Japan. So, they keep their better cars for Western markets, while the Third World gets the bottom of the barrel.




    I would interpret the situation differently.

    Japanese car manufacturers would very much like to displace the imports if they could, even though their numbers are relatively small. The imports tend to be high-price, high-status products, which are therefore also high-margin products.

    Problem is, the domestic manufacturers' products do not have the same status amongst the target Japanese consumers as an exotic European import. A high-ticket Lexus has more street credibility in the USA than it does in Tokyo! Similarly, you'll see more Gucci, Versace, Prada, Hermes or Burberry products in large Tokyo department stores than you would in similar stores in the west.

    Japanese manufacturers have groomed the western markets so long that they can now sell high-price, high-margin products there to buyers who value them for their reliability and their affordable fully-equipped packages. Those same manufacturers have to be satisfied with selling "minimalistic", low-margin products to third world markets, because that's what those markets can afford.

    I assume you had not really meant to include Japan amongst the thirld-world markets referred to in your above post?

    Dec 22, 2006 10:11:49 PM

    kickdown
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    very impressive argument.. I would agree with fritz. Lexus do have higher street credibility in the states than Tokyo. But one thing ive notice in my last visit to Tokyo is that Toyata and Nissan offers models that are not available overseas. I wouldnt remember the name of the model, but id assume they are made to target cars like the Merc S-Class and & BMW 7 series.

    Dec 22, 2006 10:39:27 PM

    rhino
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    Reply to: kickdown

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    I rented a Toyota Yaris on one of my trips to Panama. It waS 5SPEED AND I TRUELY LOVED IT!

    Dec 22, 2006 10:41:13 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I assume you had not really meant to include Japan amongst the thirld-world markets referred to in your above post?


    My mistake. I meant Europe and the US got the best cars, Japan got what was not good enough for the West, and the Third World got what was not good enough for Japan.

    You're right about the prestige of European goods. There's indeed a reverse-jingoism in the upper spheres of the market.


    Quote:
    kickdown said:
    very impressive argument.. I would agree with fritz. Lexus do have higher street credibility in the states than Tokyo.



    AFAIK Lexus was only recently introduced in Japan. Before that, the same cars were sold under the Toyota badge. Maybe they still do (Japanese manufacturers do as much badge-engineering in Japan as GM does in the US).

    Dec 22, 2006 10:44:04 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: kickdown

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    kickdown said:
    But one thing ive notice in my last visit to Tokyo is that Toyata and Nissan offers models that are not available overseas.



    Both Nissan and Toyota offer domestic models which they do not bother getting type approval for for Europe. The Nissan Cedric comes to mind, if that model name is still currently used. I remember it looking like a luxury sedan, but being low-tech under the skin.

    Dec 22, 2006 10:49:02 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    I remember that back in the mid-90's, the top Japanese luxury cars were models from the 70's. Often with extravagant interiors.

    Dec 22, 2006 10:49:09 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Well Fritz, wait long enough and you might get a Toyota Crown for Christmas

    Dec 22, 2006 11:09:30 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I remember that back in the mid-90's, the top Japanese luxury cars were models from the 70's. Often with extravagant interiors.



    Never saw too much of the interiors because of the lace curtains they fitted to the windows.

    You think I'm kidding, don't you?

    Dec 22, 2006 11:11:22 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Well Fritz, wait long enough and you might get a Toyota Crown for Christmas



    I think I'd prefer a bottle of Corona after dinner.

    Dec 23, 2006 12:46:16 PM

    Porky Tokyo
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    There are a whole bunch of Jap cars not available overseas. In fact, you can't even buy them in Japan unless you are a bigh shot (you can get them secondhand though) Examples, Nissan President - you have to be a president to get one. Toyota Century - what all the politicians are driven around in, costs about USD 120,000 or so. Then there are the Cima's, Gloria's and Cedric's. All aimed at people who want to be driven around - not actually drive.

    Lexus only started selling here last year and most people are not impressed, same car just a different label for more money.?

    In Japan status in order:

    1. Mercedes Benz
    2. BMW
    3. Jaguar
    4. Audi

    Sports Cars

    1. Ferrari
    2. Porsche
    3. Lamborghini
    4. Aston Martin

    The brand is more important than the price.

    Bentley is getting more popular with the Continental GT but an AMG still has more street cred.

    Watches are

    1. Rolex
    2. Frank Muller - not sure of the spelling
    3. Cartier
    4. IWC

    Bags are Louis Vuitton, Prada.

    Dec 23, 2006 4:22:42 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: Porky Tokyo

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Really interesting thread
    One own experience came to my mind when reading the thread:
    couple of years ago I had a business appointment in Tokyo. As a courtesy the president of the Japanese company which I visited picked me up in his car (driven by a chauffeur) at Narita airport. The car was a V12 MB S-class. Now the funny thing was that the core business of this Japanese company was (and still is)....building engine blocks for Toyota

    Dec 23, 2006 4:36:58 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I remember that back in the mid-90's, the top Japanese luxury cars were models from the 70's. Often with extravagant interiors.



    What do you think Porsche is doing? Not only did they learn from Toyota regarding production methods and efficiencies but they learned how to put lipstick on a pig and sell it.

    Dec 23, 2006 5:09:32 PM

    The Groom
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What do you think Porsche is doing? Not only did they learn from Toyota regarding production methods and efficiencies but they learned how to put lipstick on a pig and sell it.



    Great idea, I should definitely put a lace blind on my Targa.

    By the way am I the only one to think the 430 looks like a 360 going to a "pimps & ho'es" party?

    Dec 23, 2006 5:10:17 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Nick, you are just full of holiday season cheer.

    Speaking of pigs, what do you think of the $6000.00 Ferrari pigskin luggage set? or the $1354.00 coat hanger option for the new 599GTB? Lipstick on pigs?

    Dec 23, 2006 11:46:20 PM

    Atzporsche
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    the 430 is a lazy 360 makeover!

    Dec 24, 2006 3:07:50 AM

    911digital Offline
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I think I'd prefer a bottle of Corona after dinner.



    My mate only started buying corona after seeing it in the no man's land film.

    And he gave me a few bottles of it, and its not bad.

    Although i very rarely drink, i dont go the pub and i dont buy beer myself, although i was thinking about getting some corona...


    Dec 24, 2006 4:00:57 AM

    LoranTw
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I remember that back in the mid-90's, the top Japanese luxury cars were models from the 70's. Often with extravagant interiors.



    What do you think Porsche is doing? Not only did they learn from Toyota regarding production methods and efficiencies but they learned how to put lipstick on a pig and sell it.


    You really have to ditch that crack pipe... "lipstick on a pig"...Man you are too funny

    Dec 24, 2006 4:13:49 AM

    LoranTw
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    Reply to: The Groom

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    The Groom said:

    By the way am I the only one to think the 430 looks like a 360 going to a "pimps & ho'es" party?


    Statements like that only serve to rattle the cage of the F-car fanatics I wonder if Nick would agree with the comparison between the 430 and 360.

    Dec 24, 2006 1:17:04 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: stubenhocker

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    stubenhocker said:
    Monumental mistake, this is all about ego and the power over Porsche this ego has, due to his control of the voting shares! Wiedeking will do exactly as he is told!
    This will be interesting, but ultimately painful to watch!



    I'm not sure about this. Yes, the Piech and Porsche families have a lot of saying but in the end they owe Wiedeking a lot and they know that. This is why he is one of the (if not THE) best paid CEO in Germany.

    Taking control over Volkswagen makes life for Porsche much much easier, especially if we're looking at future products like the Panamera. I don't think that what is happening now is a bad thing, I'm just a little bit upset that instead of offering loyal customers more for their money, Porsche does a bit too much for shareholder value and their own good. I can't blame them but as a longtime customer, I feel a little bit dissapointed.

    Dec 24, 2006 4:12:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: LoranTw

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:

    By the way am I the only one to think the 430 looks like a 360 going to a "pimps & ho'es" party?


    Statements like that only serve to rattle the cage of the F-car fanatics I wonder if Nick would agree with the comparison between the 430 and 360.



    Take either the 360 or 430 and park it next to a Porsche 996/997 and watch the Porsche disappear.

    Be fair, Porsche styling has not changed for what 60 years? An inverted bathtub that strongly resembles a sitting frog. Do you believe Herr Porsche would have used that style but for his concept of the engine behind the rear axle?

    All Porsche does is use different make-up to cover up its outdated styling.

    Dec 24, 2006 4:45:47 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: 911digital

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    911digital said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    I think I'd prefer a bottle of Corona after dinner.



    My mate only started buying corona after seeing it in the no man's land film.

    And he gave me a few bottles of it, and its not bad.

    Although i very rarely drink, i dont go the pub and i dont buy beer myself, although i was thinking about getting some corona...


    Man, you make it sound like you're standing at the edge of the slippery slope!

    Should I be feeling guilty for mentioning Corona?

    Dec 24, 2006 7:36:23 PM

    LoranTw
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Porsches War On Toyota

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    The Groom said:

    By the way am I the only one to think the 430 looks like a 360 going to a "pimps & ho'es" party?


    Statements like that only serve to rattle the cage of the F-car fanatics I wonder if Nick would agree with the comparison between the 430 and 360.



    Take either the 360 or 430 and park it next to a Porsche 996/997 and watch the Porsche disappear.

    Be fair, Porsche styling has not changed for what 60 years? An inverted bathtub that strongly resembles a sitting frog. Do you believe Herr Porsche would have used that style but for his concept of the engine behind the rear axle?

    All Porsche does is use different make-up to cover up its outdated styling.


    Once one finds near perfection...one need only slightly and subtly modify it to arrive closer and closer to absolute perfection... Keep trying I'm almost converted and will soon acknowledge that ferrari is not a kit car.
     
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