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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Quote:
calidood said:
I have had to add 4 quarts of oil in my first 5k miles, is that way above average? I run the car pretty hard most of the time, I can't resist. I'm sure that's the main reason I have been burning so much oil. Should I be concerned?
Depends whom you listen to.
A lot of people seem to think that the world's oil reserves should last for several decades yet.
On the other hand, my car has used about 2 quarts for about 8000+ miles.
Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Geez, I can't remember which Rennteamer did this great research and essay. Was it Gnil, or Jim? Anyway, it wasn't I who did this good work. It's a thread somewhere on this board; anybody have the link? Here's the text I copied. I hope this helps.
For my C2S, I have the following oil consumption statistics:
1) the first 1716 miles, I added 650 ml, or about 0.7 quarts;
2) by 2170 miles, or additional 454 miles, I had to add another 400 ml;
3) by 2306 miles, or an additional 136 miles, I had to add another 200 ml;
4) by 3067 miles, or additional 761 miles, I had to add another 200 ml.
5) by 3615 miles, or an additional 548 miles, it looks like I have to add another 200 ml. (I went for a 200 mile drive today and was running the car between 3,000 - 4,000 rpm most of the time).
That makes an estimated total oil consumption of 1,650 ml, or about 0.456 ml of oil consumption per mile traveled. From my data, it appears that oil consumption is declining as my mileage increases. I was told by a friend that it takes longer for the piston rings to seat properly when using synthetic oil. I'll see what its like when the car gets 5,000 miles on it.
When I asked the dealer about oil consumption (at around 1800 miles), I was told that it was within the normal range.
I polled some Rennteamers a few months ago on oil consumption and got about 10 responses. I got a mean consumption of .289 ml per mile. A rough rule is that you can be 95% sure that your oil consumption is normal if it is within two standard deviations of the mean measure. Based on the small sample response I got, that would place the confidence interval between 0 consumption and 0.555 ml per mile. If this is accurate, that puts my C2S's oil consumption within that interval and is normal.
I'll check the responses on this posting and do some simple computations to see if these newer data significantly alter the results I cited above.
I just incorporated the latest responses into the database I collected earlier from Rennteam members who responded to my May 1 post. Here are the results (I updated red911's data as he responded to my May 1 post).
For those who probably don't drive their cars especially hard, the mean oil consumption is 0.273 ml per mile (or 0.171 ml per km). The standard deviation is 0.119 ml per mile (or 0.074 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal, based upon the 17 responses, it should be between 0 and 0.511 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.319 ml per km). Again, this is a crude number and the sample size is small, but it seems to make sense.
For those who apparently drive their cars more aggressively (a sample size of only 5), the mean oil consumptin is 0.73 ml per mile (or 0.456 ml per km), with a standard deviation of 0.12 ml per mile (or 0.075 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal for an aggressive driver, it should be between 0 and 0.97 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.606 ml per km).
One interesting additional point - it appears that the standard deviation is almost the same for the basic driving mode group and those who drive aggressively. So, aggressive driving increases oil consumption, but the spread around that higher mean level is the same as for those who don't drive aggressively.
All of these results fit in with what my dealer had told me last April when I got concerned about oil consumption by my 911S. Basically, it's normal and it will likely decline considerably once the rings are fully seated, which takes longer for cars using synthetic oil.
For my C2S, I have the following oil consumption statistics:
1) the first 1716 miles, I added 650 ml, or about 0.7 quarts;
2) by 2170 miles, or additional 454 miles, I had to add another 400 ml;
3) by 2306 miles, or an additional 136 miles, I had to add another 200 ml;
4) by 3067 miles, or additional 761 miles, I had to add another 200 ml.
5) by 3615 miles, or an additional 548 miles, it looks like I have to add another 200 ml. (I went for a 200 mile drive today and was running the car between 3,000 - 4,000 rpm most of the time).
That makes an estimated total oil consumption of 1,650 ml, or about 0.456 ml of oil consumption per mile traveled. From my data, it appears that oil consumption is declining as my mileage increases. I was told by a friend that it takes longer for the piston rings to seat properly when using synthetic oil. I'll see what its like when the car gets 5,000 miles on it.
When I asked the dealer about oil consumption (at around 1800 miles), I was told that it was within the normal range.
I polled some Rennteamers a few months ago on oil consumption and got about 10 responses. I got a mean consumption of .289 ml per mile. A rough rule is that you can be 95% sure that your oil consumption is normal if it is within two standard deviations of the mean measure. Based on the small sample response I got, that would place the confidence interval between 0 consumption and 0.555 ml per mile. If this is accurate, that puts my C2S's oil consumption within that interval and is normal.
I'll check the responses on this posting and do some simple computations to see if these newer data significantly alter the results I cited above.
I just incorporated the latest responses into the database I collected earlier from Rennteam members who responded to my May 1 post. Here are the results (I updated red911's data as he responded to my May 1 post).
For those who probably don't drive their cars especially hard, the mean oil consumption is 0.273 ml per mile (or 0.171 ml per km). The standard deviation is 0.119 ml per mile (or 0.074 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal, based upon the 17 responses, it should be between 0 and 0.511 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.319 ml per km). Again, this is a crude number and the sample size is small, but it seems to make sense.
For those who apparently drive their cars more aggressively (a sample size of only 5), the mean oil consumptin is 0.73 ml per mile (or 0.456 ml per km), with a standard deviation of 0.12 ml per mile (or 0.075 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal for an aggressive driver, it should be between 0 and 0.97 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.606 ml per km).
One interesting additional point - it appears that the standard deviation is almost the same for the basic driving mode group and those who drive aggressively. So, aggressive driving increases oil consumption, but the spread around that higher mean level is the same as for those who don't drive aggressively.
All of these results fit in with what my dealer had told me last April when I got concerned about oil consumption by my 911S. Basically, it's normal and it will likely decline considerably once the rings are fully seated, which takes longer for cars using synthetic oil.
Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
When do you add oil? If your reading is one bar down, you may not really need to add oil. Believe the "guage" has an error of +/- .2 litre. Each bar represents .4 litre IIRC. Point is that if you put in .4 liter of oil you could be over filling. I add oil 2 oz at a time. In 5K + miles I've used 24 oz. (I'll try to find a post on the guage error and post it here) Haven't had to add any since about 3500 miles.
Try this: when you see that you're one bar down, let the car sit for a day or two and then see what the reading is. These quages seem to show a bit low one day and then normal the next.
With the mileage you've got on your car now, seems your useage should slow.
Try this: when you see that you're one bar down, let the car sit for a day or two and then see what the reading is. These quages seem to show a bit low one day and then normal the next.
With the mileage you've got on your car now, seems your useage should slow.
Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Quote:
MMD said:
Geez, I can't remember which Rennteamer did this great research and essay. Was it Gnil, or Jim? Anyway, it wasn't I who did this good work. It's a thread somewhere on this board; anybody have the link? Here's the text I copied. I hope this helps.
For my C2S, I have the following oil consumption statistics:
1) the first 1716 miles, I added 650 ml, or about 0.7 quarts;
2) by 2170 miles, or additional 454 miles, I had to add another 400 ml;
3) by 2306 miles, or an additional 136 miles, I had to add another 200 ml;
4) by 3067 miles, or additional 761 miles, I had to add another 200 ml.
5) by 3615 miles, or an additional 548 miles, it looks like I have to add another 200 ml. (I went for a 200 mile drive today and was running the car between 3,000 - 4,000 rpm most of the time).
That makes an estimated total oil consumption of 1,650 ml, or about 0.456 ml of oil consumption per mile traveled. From my data, it appears that oil consumption is declining as my mileage increases. I was told by a friend that it takes longer for the piston rings to seat properly when using synthetic oil. I'll see what its like when the car gets 5,000 miles on it.
When I asked the dealer about oil consumption (at around 1800 miles), I was told that it was within the normal range.
I polled some Rennteamers a few months ago on oil consumption and got about 10 responses. I got a mean consumption of .289 ml per mile. A rough rule is that you can be 95% sure that your oil consumption is normal if it is within two standard deviations of the mean measure. Based on the small sample response I got, that would place the confidence interval between 0 consumption and 0.555 ml per mile. If this is accurate, that puts my C2S's oil consumption within that interval and is normal.
I'll check the responses on this posting and do some simple computations to see if these newer data significantly alter the results I cited above.
I just incorporated the latest responses into the database I collected earlier from Rennteam members who responded to my May 1 post. Here are the results (I updated red911's data as he responded to my May 1 post).
For those who probably don't drive their cars especially hard, the mean oil consumption is 0.273 ml per mile (or 0.171 ml per km). The standard deviation is 0.119 ml per mile (or 0.074 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal, based upon the 17 responses, it should be between 0 and 0.511 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.319 ml per km). Again, this is a crude number and the sample size is small, but it seems to make sense.
For those who apparently drive their cars more aggressively (a sample size of only 5), the mean oil consumptin is 0.73 ml per mile (or 0.456 ml per km), with a standard deviation of 0.12 ml per mile (or 0.075 ml per km). To be roughly 95% confident that your car's oil consumption is normal for an aggressive driver, it should be between 0 and 0.97 ml per mile (or between 0 and 0.606 ml per km).
One interesting additional point - it appears that the standard deviation is almost the same for the basic driving mode group and those who drive aggressively. So, aggressive driving increases oil consumption, but the spread around that higher mean level is the same as for those who don't drive aggressively.
All of these results fit in with what my dealer had told me last April when I got concerned about oil consumption by my 911S. Basically, it's normal and it will likely decline considerably once the rings are fully seated, which takes longer for cars using synthetic oil.
MMD, sorry it took me so long to reply on the oil consumption data I tabulated for the team last September. The note below is what I had gathered then.
From mid-September, 2006. "I collected some stats from other Rennteam members and updated them in early July. For 17 responses, I got a mean (read average) oil consumption of 0.273 ml per mile, with a 0.119 standard deviation. This is generally for folks driving moderately. Even though the sample size is small, you could be about 95% confident that if your consumption was between 0 and 0.511 ml per mile it was within tolerances. For those driving aggressively, oil consumption would be a bit higher.
My own consumption stats after 4652 miles (the last time I added some oil) for my 2006 911 S are 2.050 liters, or 0.441 ml per mile. It goes with the car. Ultra high performance engines have fewer piston rings - I'm not sure about the M97 engine that is in the 911S but I suspect it has just 2 piston rings. That usually means you're going to consume some oil, especially when you're pushing the engine to higher revs.
Frankly, my car runs like a charm."
UPDATE ON MY 997's OIL CONSUMPTION. I had the oil and filter changed at 5392 miles on 3 November 2006, having consumed an estimated 2.05 liters. I have run the car more aggressively since then, traveling about 442 miles, and have not experienced any loss of oil. I was told by my salesman that by about 5,000 miles the engine would be fully broken in and would probably not consume much oil, unless I pushed it really hard.
Hope this helps a bit.
Jim
Dec 14, 2006 10:08:42 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Very useful thread. Thanks 
When I collected my car from Stuttgart, it had 4 miles on the odometer. I added 200ml opf engine oil at 884 miles (i.e. after another 880 miles). That's 0.227ml used per mile.
I'm running the engine in very gently always staying below 4000rpm. Typically I change gear somewhere between 2000rpm and 3500rpm.
I can't wait till I pass 2000 miles then I will take it well beyond 4200rpm...
When I collected my car from Stuttgart, it had 4 miles on the odometer. I added 200ml opf engine oil at 884 miles (i.e. after another 880 miles). That's 0.227ml used per mile.
I'm running the engine in very gently always staying below 4000rpm. Typically I change gear somewhere between 2000rpm and 3500rpm.
I can't wait till I pass 2000 miles then I will take it well beyond 4200rpm...
Dec 14, 2006 3:06:10 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
I should also add that my plan is to add oil (only in quantities of 200ml at a time) only once I have had at least 2-3 overnight (cold engine) oil readings showing that the oil is 2 bars down from full. (I don't want to risk overfilling it).
This is fine when one notes that the indicator shows the top 1200ml out of the total of around 11-12 litres of engine oil in the car (NB each little bar represents 400ml and there are 3 of them).
(It is possible that the oil level indicator will show 2 bars down making one think that 800ml of oil has been used when the reality is that something between 400ml and 800ml has been used i.e. it could be as little as 450ml so I could add 200ml at a time and never risk overfilling).
I'm lucky I can take a cold engine oil reading (after the car has been parked overnight) without starting the car because the ground in the car park where I park is EXACTLY level. (I checked it with a 3D builder's spirit level which I have at home).
Like Jim48, I am keeping a record of engine oil consumption. I think it will be interesting to analyse my engine oil cunsumption especially during the first 5000 miles. I have just made a word document which I can easily update showing:
1) the dates when I top up
2) total mileage covered so far
3) mileage since the last top up
4) how many bars down the oil level indicator is showing
5) amount of engine oil added on each top up
6) oil used per mile since the last top up
7) total oli added since I bought the car
9) total oil used per mile since I bought the car.
This is fine when one notes that the indicator shows the top 1200ml out of the total of around 11-12 litres of engine oil in the car (NB each little bar represents 400ml and there are 3 of them).
(It is possible that the oil level indicator will show 2 bars down making one think that 800ml of oil has been used when the reality is that something between 400ml and 800ml has been used i.e. it could be as little as 450ml so I could add 200ml at a time and never risk overfilling).
I'm lucky I can take a cold engine oil reading (after the car has been parked overnight) without starting the car because the ground in the car park where I park is EXACTLY level. (I checked it with a 3D builder's spirit level which I have at home).
Like Jim48, I am keeping a record of engine oil consumption. I think it will be interesting to analyse my engine oil cunsumption especially during the first 5000 miles. I have just made a word document which I can easily update showing:
1) the dates when I top up
2) total mileage covered so far
3) mileage since the last top up
4) how many bars down the oil level indicator is showing
5) amount of engine oil added on each top up
6) oil used per mile since the last top up
7) total oli added since I bought the car
9) total oil used per mile since I bought the car.
Dec 20, 2006 7:28:58 PM
- Alex_997TT
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- Reply to: MMD
Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
I'm still a little concerned about my 1.000 ml per mile figure. In the last 10k miles I have added 10L of Mobil1.
I am aware of a fellow UK based C2S owner who is currently having his engine replaced by Porsche at 12k miles due to his offside bank cylinders having very heavily scored bores . This was causing him to go through Mobil1 at a high rate, much like myself.
I think I am going to call my OPC in the morning to see whether I may have a similar problem.
I am aware of a fellow UK based C2S owner who is currently having his engine replaced by Porsche at 12k miles due to his offside bank cylinders having very heavily scored bores . This was causing him to go through Mobil1 at a high rate, much like myself.
I think I am going to call my OPC in the morning to see whether I may have a similar problem.
Dec 21, 2006 2:52:20 AM
- TheOldMan
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Dec 21, 2006 1:17:35 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Dec 21, 2006 4:20:19 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
I got a reply from my OPC today on this:Quote:
Porsche state that the vehicle can use up to 1 litre per 1000KM (roughly 650miles) which they confirm is an acceptible level for the vehicle to use.
...so I should be ok.
Is that a typo
1L per 10,000 km should be OK but not per 1,000 km (maybe under extreme conditions like endurance racing or so).FWIW: oil consumption will become higher if you do some long distance high speed trips now and then. That's at least what I experienced with my 987 S during some long distance trips (500-700 km each trip) with frequent legs of 230-250 km/h
Dec 21, 2006 4:45:44 PM
- Alex_997TT
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Dec 22, 2006 2:24:59 PM
- Jim48
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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
Alex,
If you drive aggressively, meaning you regularly rev the engine above 5,000 rpm, the 1L per 1000 miles might be okay, but it seems a bit steep.
I just check my own records - and I admit that I don't drive super aggressively - and I used about 2,250 ml(correction from my earlier post of 2,050 ml) during the first 5,392 miles, or about 0.42 ml per mile. My dealer had told me that this was within Porsche specifications. At 5,392 miles, I had my oil and filter changed, and now have 5,975 miles on it and have apparently not used any oil. My salesman told me that it usually takes about 5,000 miles before the engine is broken in and oil consumption drops. If you have not had an oil change, you might want to try that and see what happens.
I'll update my posting from time to time just to let everyone know if my oil consumption has dropped off.
Jim
If you drive aggressively, meaning you regularly rev the engine above 5,000 rpm, the 1L per 1000 miles might be okay, but it seems a bit steep.
I just check my own records - and I admit that I don't drive super aggressively - and I used about 2,250 ml(correction from my earlier post of 2,050 ml) during the first 5,392 miles, or about 0.42 ml per mile. My dealer had told me that this was within Porsche specifications. At 5,392 miles, I had my oil and filter changed, and now have 5,975 miles on it and have apparently not used any oil. My salesman told me that it usually takes about 5,000 miles before the engine is broken in and oil consumption drops. If you have not had an oil change, you might want to try that and see what happens.
I'll update my posting from time to time just to let everyone know if my oil consumption has dropped off.
Jim
Dec 22, 2006 7:29:09 PM
- Leawood911
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Re: Oil Consumption First 5k Miles
It also depends more on how often you use the car and if you take long or short trips. If you take many short trips and use the car infrequently then moisture can accumulate and actually make it appear as though you are not using any or much oil at all as the moisture may displace the oil to some extent. If you then take a long trip which allows the accumulated moisture to evaporate you are then left with just the remaining oil making it appear like the long drive consumed the oil when in actuallity you just finally got rid of the excess moisture. Anyway, this is what I read a while back in C&D and if you think I am crazy I can understand but it makes sense to me.
This does not explain the volume of disappearing oil in all cases but it does explain why it appears that long trips consume much more oil. I have more than 40K on my 997S,drive it everyday and check my oil at least once per week. I have never had to add oil between changes (every 7 - 8K) and I never see the level drop even one bar in-between. My guess is that letting these cars sit in the garage all the time and not using them everyday (especially during break-in) is NOT GOOD FOR THEM (Porsche knows this but it would not make sense to advertise this as many of the cars they sell sit around much more than the average Honda/ Toyota).
I know P. owners who have less than 5K miles after two years of ownership (Something they appear to be proud of, you know who you are!). These poor cars have been through a 2 year+ break-in period that involved short trips on sunny days only and are still not broken-in. Yeah, the miles are low but I would never buy are car that has been broken in over such a long time and has spent so much time sitting around. Give me a proven, normal mileage car that has had regular use instead.
I guess my point is that cars which are driven regularly end up using less oil per mile than those which sit around alot. Since Porsches spend more time sitting around than other cars the factory must consider what is excessive oil consumption more liberally when setting normal ranges of OIL consumption. That is how you end up with outragous amounts of oil used being as considered NORMAL. This presents a problem if your car is really using too much oil (frequent use, many miles and still high oil use). Not to mention it makes a warranty claim for high oil consumption a real pain I bet.
It would be best if they (Porsche) qualified normal ranges based on use i.e. - We (Porsche) expect a car that has been broken in quickly and is used everyday to use X amount of oil per 1K miles and cars which are not broken in quickly and used infrequently to use Y amount of oil per 1K.
Of course as soon as it got out that Porsches use more oil if they sit around (and hence may have suspect engines later on) a lot of 'trophy' Porsches would not be purchased and Porsche can't let that happen. (They must love cars that are out of warranty due to time rather than miles
.)
Drive Right / Rechts Fahren
This does not explain the volume of disappearing oil in all cases but it does explain why it appears that long trips consume much more oil. I have more than 40K on my 997S,drive it everyday and check my oil at least once per week. I have never had to add oil between changes (every 7 - 8K) and I never see the level drop even one bar in-between. My guess is that letting these cars sit in the garage all the time and not using them everyday (especially during break-in) is NOT GOOD FOR THEM (Porsche knows this but it would not make sense to advertise this as many of the cars they sell sit around much more than the average Honda/ Toyota).
I know P. owners who have less than 5K miles after two years of ownership (Something they appear to be proud of, you know who you are!). These poor cars have been through a 2 year+ break-in period that involved short trips on sunny days only and are still not broken-in. Yeah, the miles are low but I would never buy are car that has been broken in over such a long time and has spent so much time sitting around. Give me a proven, normal mileage car that has had regular use instead.
I guess my point is that cars which are driven regularly end up using less oil per mile than those which sit around alot. Since Porsches spend more time sitting around than other cars the factory must consider what is excessive oil consumption more liberally when setting normal ranges of OIL consumption. That is how you end up with outragous amounts of oil used being as considered NORMAL. This presents a problem if your car is really using too much oil (frequent use, many miles and still high oil use). Not to mention it makes a warranty claim for high oil consumption a real pain I bet.
It would be best if they (Porsche) qualified normal ranges based on use i.e. - We (Porsche) expect a car that has been broken in quickly and is used everyday to use X amount of oil per 1K miles and cars which are not broken in quickly and used infrequently to use Y amount of oil per 1K.
Of course as soon as it got out that Porsches use more oil if they sit around (and hence may have suspect engines later on) a lot of 'trophy' Porsches would not be purchased and Porsche can't let that happen. (They must love cars that are out of warranty due to time rather than miles
.)Drive Right / Rechts Fahren
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