Crown

For once I nearly agree with noone1! I have a bunch paneri's but now just wear an Apple Watch all the time. Don't care. Just love what it does. Just like my teslas. Love what it does. But if I didn't have teslas I would prob be in a Porsche or RR SUV. As for sedan it would prob be a Bmw. Panamera is just not worth the cost.

Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2014 991 TTS Cab - Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2017 Porsche Mission E on order

I think many in the sports / luxury car community have difficulty seeing the appeal and relative success of Tesla.  One way is to imagine that, just like our purchase of Porsche etc is not a logical one, but an emotional one, the purchase of a Tesla is also an emotional one.  Just that the particular emotions that drive Tesla owners relate to environmental action, being future-looking or leading edge in technologies, etc., instead of our emotional connection with a car's racing pedigree, power, handling, etc.  I think this supports Noone's argument that Tesla has indeed developed its own more or less unique customers, who love this brand for their own reasons.  Mr Musk has fed this zeal very well. 

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

Fun fact...

Reddit subscribers:

Tesla: 130K
BMW: 50K
VW: 30K
Mercedes: 10K
Ford Mustang: 25K
Honda: 25K

Tesla owners are a different breed who value different things than typical luxury car buyers. Tesla's community is not all that different from other iconic enthusiast communities, yet Tesla did that while not selling anything terribly iconic. It's not like they really had any history either. It would be like a Ferrarichat dedicated to 5er, or a Rennteam full of Audi A6 fans. They've established a customer base that is crazy about daily commuters, with a level of enthusiasm you only find in very iconic brands with long histories. I wouldn't be surprised if Tesla has a bigger online community than any other company/car.

Yesterday I (almost) confused this Citroen Minivan for a Tesla X. 

How can people say the Tesla X is a SUV? It is clearly a Minivan. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Yesterday I (almost) confused this Citroen Minivan for a Tesla X. 

How can people say the Tesla X is a SUV?

Same way some people count masturbating as having sex    ​​​​

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

RC:

Yesterday I (almost) confused this Citroen Minivan for a Tesla X. 

How can people say the Tesla X is a SUV?

Same way some people count masturbating as having sex    ​​​​

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

I'm completely agree with noone1.

Tesla is not about lap times and emotions (at least not emotions in a tradicional petrolhead sense) so you should stop comparing them with its petrol equivalent. 

Tesla is about tech, comfort, practicality, lifestyle, innovation, etc. And in these regards they knew how to put together in a very good looking package (Model S -altough the not so good lookin Model X and the ugly Model 3-). That's why they succeed and have no competition nowadays. 

One thing is true: they need to improve their interiors asap. Otherwise they already are heavily positioned in the industry so I don't see their goal is to be acquired by a big corporation as someone said in the previous pages.

Just my 2 cents.

alexalex88:

I'm completely agree with noone1.

Tesla is not about lap times and emotions (at least not emotions in a tradicional petrolhead sense) so you should stop comparing them with its petrol equivalent. 

Tesla is about tech, comfort, practicality, lifestyle, innovation, etc. And in these regards they knew how to put together in a very good looking package (Model S -altough the not so good lookin Model X and the ugly Model 3-). That's why they succeed and have no competition nowadays. 

One thing is true: they need to improve their interiors asap. Otherwise they already are heavily positioned in the industry so I don't see their goal is to be acquired by a big corporation as someone said in the previous pages.

Just my 2 cents.

Did we really claim something else? We just said that once major car manufacturers think they can make top dollars with ELVs, they will enter this market and destroy Tesla.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

alexalex88:

I'm completely agree with noone1.

Tesla is not about lap times and emotions (at least not emotions in a tradicional petrolhead sense) so you should stop comparing them with its petrol equivalent. 

Tesla is about tech, comfort, practicality, lifestyle, innovation, etc. And in these regards they knew how to put together in a very good looking package (Model S -altough the not so good lookin Model X and the ugly Model 3-). That's why they succeed and have no competition nowadays. 

One thing is true: they need to improve their interiors asap. Otherwise they already are heavily positioned in the industry so I don't see their goal is to be acquired by a big corporation as someone said in the previous pages.

Just my 2 cents.

Did we really claim something else? We just said that once major car manufacturers think they can make top dollars with ELVs, they will enter this market and destroy Tesla.

I've been reading that for a long time and honestly I don't see it that clear: 

"You will see when [insert your brick&mortar company] enter this market, they'll destroy [insert your digital "start-up"]", this is pretty much the same scenario and I'm sure that Uber, Netflix or Amazon beg to differ from your statement.

Tesla has a huge fan base, is selling huge volumes of cars, people is paying big money for their cars and they are not tied to any big corporation so they can be (and are being) as creative as they want.

Uber actually benefitted from restrictive laws and huge deficits in specific (taxi) laws. Sooner or later, they could have a big (unpleasant) surprise in some major markets. Depends on politics entirely. 

Netflix was very aggressive in their approach, they didn't really offer anything new (other than some "homemade" stuff which apparently hit the nerve of some consumers). Sooner or later, they may hit a wall...the competition from iTunes, Amazon and Co. is increasing.

Amazon? Here I actually see a big change for a monopoly, they basically have a quasi monopoly right now in my opinion. Amazon is huge and the potential to growth is even bigger. There is no real competitor out there right now. Maybe Alibaba in China. I am waiting for Amazon to enter the drugs market and the automotive market.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

The difference is that the big car manufacturers are not entering a new market, they are already dominating the market of making cars, its Tesla that has entered a new market of making cars, once the big car companies decide its worth producing EV powered cars they are in a position to wipe out tesla and any other with their know how and resources to make cars, their dealer and service infrastruture, their huge client base, etc. The only reason Tesla is seling cars is because the difference to other cars in that their are electric powered attracts some customers, once that difference dissapears, so will Tesla cause their product will be no match is client service infrastructure, brand penetration, chasis engineering, pricing, interiors, production ability, R&D, and a long list of advantages the big companies have at this game. Tesla will never be mainstream because when the market is ready for that the bigmakers will decide to step in and reap the rewards of the market Tesla sowed. Personally I dont think tesla will die and dissaper but rather its auto division be bought and absorved by a big maker...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

The difference is that the big car manufacturers are not entering a new market, they are already dominating the market of making cars, its Tesla that has entered a new market of making cars, once the big car companies decide its worth producing EV powered cars they are in a position to wipe out tesla and any other with their know how and resources to make cars, their dealer and service infrastruture, their huge client base, etc. The only reason Tesla is seling cars is because the difference to other cars in that their are electric powered attracts some customers, once that difference dissapears, so will Tesla cause their product will be no match is client service infrastructure, brand penetration, chasis engineering, pricing, interiors, production ability, R&D, and a long list of advantages the big companies have at this game. Tesla will never be mainstream because when the market is ready for that the bigmakers will decide to step in and reap the rewards of the market Tesla sowed. Personally I dont think tesla will die and dissaper but rather its auto division be bought and absorved by a big maker...

I'm amazed how two tech guys like you and RC are that short-sighted in this regard, and now I'm not talking (only) about Tesla. Both of you seem not to understand how this new digital enviroment works and you are using arguments from 15 years ago.

Time will tell but I when I read you I have the feeling that I've heard that before, and the disruptive, customer-centric and omnichannel companies always won.

Let me make it painfully obvious with a example... who would take a Model X over an electric Cayenne or Panamera version? Or a Model S over an electric 960 or 911?... preeeeecisely  

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

alexalex88:

Carlos from Spain:

The difference is that the big car manufacturers are not entering a new market, they are already dominating the market of making cars, its Tesla that has entered a new market of making cars, once the big car companies decide its worth producing EV powered cars they are in a position to wipe out tesla and any other with their know how and resources to make cars, their dealer and service infrastruture, their huge client base, etc. The only reason Tesla is seling cars is because the difference to other cars in that their are electric powered attracts some customers, once that difference dissapears, so will Tesla cause their product will be no match is client service infrastructure, brand penetration, chasis engineering, pricing, interiors, production ability, R&D, and a long list of advantages the big companies have at this game. Tesla will never be mainstream because when the market is ready for that the bigmakers will decide to step in and reap the rewards of the market Tesla sowed. Personally I dont think tesla will die and dissaper but rather its auto division be bought and absorved by a big maker...

I'm amazed how two tech guys like you and RC are that short-sighted in this regard, and now I'm not talking (only) about Tesla. Both of you seem not to understand how this new digital enviroment works and you are using arguments from 15 years ago.

Time will tell but I when I read you I have the feeling that I've heard that before, and the disruptive, customer-centric and omnichannel companies always won.

 

I have been right regarding Nokia and Blackberry (you wouldn't believe how many arguments I had with people about these two companies) and I was pretty sure that Opel will go bankrupt (GM actually sold them to Peugeot, so it probably was a close call). I was also right about Steve Ballmer (MS) and Bill Gates did the right thing by giving MS a new course (cloud, etc.).

No, I am not always right but I have never been really wrong regarding tech and trends. I missed the Tesla stock boom (probably because I really thought that they are going to go down the drain earlier than expected) but I do not think I am wrong about Tesla as a company. If I am wrong, well...no harm done. 

Since I know (or think I know ) what Porsche and Audi are (ELV) cooking, I think it is pretty safe to say that Tesla will get huge competition once major manufacturers switch their priorities. Right now, Tesla is basically alone but in a few years...

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Carlos from Spain:

Let me make it painfully obvious with a example... who would take a Model X over an electric Cayenne or Panamera version? Or a Model S over an electric 960 or 911?... preeeeecisely  

At the same price... 
 

The Mission E will be surprisingly "cheap", in the Tesla S price range.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Mission E should be in the same range as Tesla S. But up to now - Porsche don´t know how to handle the 800V system, they have problems with cooling, fire, they have problems with exchanging batteries, .... a lot of things Tesla already have solved.

No doubt, that Porsche will solve it also. But in that time Tesla can focus more on autonomous driving and go further in electro mobility and digital transformation of mobility.

Just take a look of a recent patent - 1.000.000 Watt charging. They will inject fluids to cool the batteries during charging. 1MW charging means you will recharge it in less then 5 minutes.

Just think how the mobility will be in future. We will use robocabs, not owning cars just sharing, .....

Tesla has projects that a car can last 1.000.000 miles. Today the cars are build for 300.000 km. When using robocabs a car will do 20.000 mils in a month. After 5 years you have 1.000.000 miles on clock. Totally different then today. This isn´t possible with cars MB, Audi are producing today. Tesla is working on that.

Nokia, Siemens, Ericsson where ahead in mobile technology ...... now they are mobile history ....

AM

What battery cells will the Mission E use in its battery packs?

Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

RC:

I have been right regarding Nokia and Blackberry (you wouldn't believe how many arguments I had with people about these two companies) and I was pretty sure that Opel will go bankrupt (GM actually sold them to Peugeot, so it probably was a close call). I was also right about Steve Ballmer (MS) and Bill Gates did the right thing by giving MS a new course (cloud, etc.).

No, I am not always right but I have never been really wrong regarding tech and trends. I missed the Tesla stock boom (probably because I really thought that they are going to go down the drain earlier than expected) but I do not think I am wrong about Tesla as a company. If I am wrong, well...no harm done. 

Since I know (or think I know ) what Porsche and Audi are (ELV) cooking, I think it is pretty safe to say that Tesla will get huge competition once major manufacturers switch their priorities. Right now, Tesla is basically alone but in a few years...
--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

Well... no offense but reading what you wrote about Netflix, Uber or Amazon (or Spotify, or Airbnb, or...) I think you might have lost your touch.

ALDO summed it up pretty well.

ALDO:

Mission E should be in the same range as Tesla S. But up to now - Porsche don´t know how to handle the 800V system, they have problems with cooling, fire, they have problems with exchanging batteries, .... a lot of things Tesla already have solved.

Porsche doesn't develop the Mission E alone, if you get my point. They already benefit from lots of solutions and experience from Audi (etron), VW and others. Not everything they do and can is known to the public. VW certainly doesn't believe in "Public Domain" patents and sharing tech. 

No doubt, that Porsche will solve it also. But in that time Tesla can focus more on autonomous driving and go further in electro mobility and digital transformation of mobility.

Same thing do Google, probably Apple and many many other companies who are at least as capable in this tech sector as Tesla but haven't come up with a product yet. Surprise surprise...

Just take a look of a recent patent - 1.000.000 Watt charging. They will inject fluids to cool the batteries during charging. 1MW charging means you will recharge it in less then 5 minutes.

So what? Quantum Chemistry could come up with solutions we don't even think are possible, so many changes will happen over the next couple of years and if Tesla doesn't lead with a patent they developed on their own, they are toast.

Just think how the mobility will be in future. We will use robocabs, not owning cars just sharing, .....

Robotic cabs will be a reality at some point but mainly in larger cities. At first, autonomous driving in our own cars will be a reality, probably at some point in a way where certain roads cannot be used by drivers who drive themselves and/or they need a special authorization to do that. Our chancellor Merkel actually spoiled this (unpleasant) reality at a congress in Argentina.

Tesla has projects that a car can last 1.000.000 miles. Today the cars are build for 300.000 km. When using robocabs a car will do 20.000 mils in a month. After 5 years you have 1.000.000 miles on clock. Totally different then today. This isn´t possible with cars MB, Audi are producing today. Tesla is working on that.

Nokia, Siemens, Ericsson where ahead in mobile technology ...... now they are mobile history ....

Ericsson? I think you are confusing cell phones with mobile communications tech. Ericsson is still strong. 

Siemens was clever enough to exit the business in time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Yesterday I (almost) confused this Citroen Minivan for a Tesla X. 

How can people say the Tesla X is a SUV? It is clearly a Minivan. 

Look at the rear, these vehicles have nothing in common except the will of a few people here to put them in the same bag. Well that and the fact that they are both black 

Customers are totally cross shopping small minivans and the X. And in the USA luxury SUV owners are totally cross shopping the X, and luxury sedan owners are cross shopping the S. And Tesla has also brought a new breed of clients to its brand. That's why Tesla is doing so well, their clients are all over the map as long as they can afford the entry price tag. Just read above, in our small sample of members focused on sport cars we have people who are telling you how much they like their Tesla. You can imagine if you enlarge the criterias to the rest of the population who thinks cars are just a mean of transportation.

Anecdotally, Tesla is now easily the most represented luxury brand in my office parking lot...

alexalex88:

RC:

I have been right regarding Nokia and Blackberry (you wouldn't believe how many arguments I had with people about these two companies) and I was pretty sure that Opel will go bankrupt (GM actually sold them to Peugeot, so it probably was a close call). I was also right about Steve Ballmer (MS) and Bill Gates did the right thing by giving MS a new course (cloud, etc.).

No, I am not always right but I have never been really wrong regarding tech and trends. I missed the Tesla stock boom (probably because I really thought that they are going to go down the drain earlier than expected) but I do not think I am wrong about Tesla as a company. If I am wrong, well...no harm done. 

Since I know (or think I know ) what Porsche and Audi are (ELV) cooking, I think it is pretty safe to say that Tesla will get huge competition once major manufacturers switch their priorities. Right now, Tesla is basically alone but in a few years...
--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

Well... no offense but reading what you wrote about Netflix, Uber or Amazon (or Spotify, or Airbnb, or...) I think you might have lost your touch.

ALDO summed it up pretty well.

Netflix and Spotify will be toast once Apple, Amazon and Co. have adapted to certain "challenges" in the market.

Airbnb has similar issues to Uber, they will grow or fall with local politics. In Germany, Airbnb already has legal issues, same goes to Uber. Many other countries have similar laws and regulations.

Amazon will be very strong in the future, they do everything right (so far). Actually, I saw it coming but never bothered to by their stock. Bummer. 

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

FWIW Tesla have opened a shop in Canary Wharf which always seems to have a few milling around inside. I spoke to one of their advisers about 6 weeks ago to organise a test drive - took all my details onto his iPad & I haven't heard anything since. This shows me two things - 1) they couldn't care much for the customer and 2) I clearly couldn't care much for the product.

Meh!

991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog

Carlos from Spain:

The difference is that the big car manufacturers are not entering a new market, they are already dominating the market of making cars, its Tesla that has entered a new market of making cars, once the big car companies decide its worth producing EV powered cars they are in a position to wipe out tesla and any other with their know how and resources to make cars, their dealer and service infrastruture, their huge client base, etc. The only reason Tesla is seling cars is because the difference to other cars in that their are electric powered attracts some customers, once that difference dissapears, so will Tesla cause their product will be no match is client service infrastructure, brand penetration, chasis engineering, pricing, interiors, production ability, R&D, and a long list of advantages the big companies have at this game. Tesla will never be mainstream because when the market is ready for that the bigmakers will decide to step in and reap the rewards of the market Tesla sowed. Personally I dont think tesla will die and dissaper but rather its auto division be bought and absorved by a big maker...

You are funny. Everyone is raving about the fact that Tesla has finally relegated the notion of dealership to the dark ages. Maybe that has not been well established in Europe yet, but the experience in the USA is on a whole other level. No price hassles, you can spec and order online, dealer comes to your house and gives you a Tesla loaner... Dealers are putting up a massive legal fight in some states because they are very scared and very very annoyed at this fresh breath of air.

RC:

Yesterday I (almost) confused this Citroen Minivan for a Tesla X. 

How can people say the Tesla X is a SUV? It is clearly a Minivan. 

Cause Elon say so, and Elon is never wrong according to some, so the Model X is  SUV not a minivan.

RC:

 

Ericsson? I think you are confusing cell phones with mobile communications tech. Ericsson is still strong. 

Siemens was clever enough to exit the business in time.

My best friend at the time Ericsson was one of the first addresses in the world ( I have worked with them in this technology area) no one ever have heard about Huawei. Now look what technology is used for our cell phone calls. 

AM

SciFrog:

Carlos from Spain:

The difference is that the big car manufacturers are not entering a new market, they are already dominating the market of making cars, its Tesla that has entered a new market of making cars, once the big car companies decide its worth producing EV powered cars they are in a position to wipe out tesla and any other with their know how and resources to make cars, their dealer and service infrastruture, their huge client base, etc. The only reason Tesla is seling cars is because the difference to other cars in that their are electric powered attracts some customers, once that difference dissapears, so will Tesla cause their product will be no match is client service infrastructure, brand penetration, chasis engineering, pricing, interiors, production ability, R&D, and a long list of advantages the big companies have at this game. Tesla will never be mainstream because when the market is ready for that the bigmakers will decide to step in and reap the rewards of the market Tesla sowed. Personally I dont think tesla will die and dissaper but rather its auto division be bought and absorved by a big maker...

You are funny. Everyone is raving about the fact that Tesla has finally relegated the notion of dealership to the dark ages. Maybe that has not been well established in Europe yet, but the experience in the USA is on a whole other level.

They did? Where do you buy your Tesla? From a Tesla dealer. Where do you service your car? At a Tesla dealer. It doesn't really matter for the customer if the dealership is factory owned or not. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

Carlos from Spain:

Let me make it painfully obvious with a example... who would take a Model X over an electric Cayenne or Panamera version? Or a Model S over an electric 960 or 911?... preeeeecisely  

At the same price... 
 

The Mission E will be surprisingly "cheap", in the Tesla S price range.

--

 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

 

Where is that electric Porsche at the same price as a Tesla? We will talk again when there is a final product to buy and a price attached to it.

I have no doubt the Porsche interior quality will be better than a current Tesla, and that it will handle better.

How about we just wait and see? The idea that no one will buy a Tesla over a Porsche is retarded. There's no reason to believe this. People will buy all sorts of stuff, just like they do now. I think many cars owned on here are ugly and not the best choice. So what? It doesn't mean everyone does. You guys buy all sorts of random shit for reasons of your own.

It's not a matter of will Tesla dominate, it's a matter of if they can sell enough to stick around, even if worth a fraction of what they are now. It's entirely possible they sell tons of cars, but not a profitably as hoped.

The idea that Tesla sales will plummet when Porsche and Audi enter the market is ridiculous. Could they go down? Sure. Will they be the all-time leader? Possibly not, but making comments like "who would buy an X over a Cayenne" is dumb. Lots of people will just like lots of people buy BMWs and Mercedes and Audi over Porsche, even though they have no problem affording either.

SciFrog:

Where is that electric Porsche at the same price as a Tesla? We will talk again when there is a final product to buy and a price attached to it.

I have no doubt the Porsche interior quality will be better than a current Tesla, and that it will handle better.

I don't know what people think they will be the same price. There's no indication that they won't actually be more expensive and most people are expecting them to be more expensive. Porsche will no doubt carry a significant premium over a Tesla just like they carry a significant premium over ICE competition.

If a Porsche costs more than a BMW or Mercedes, why wouldn't it cost more than a Tesla?