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    Dec 7, 2006 9:02:43 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Christian,
    997 Turbo is IMHO clear winner of this comparison! Why did M6 won? How about number of BMW adds in MotorPresse editions. And some people at German AMS are apparently not too much in love with Porsche. Shame on them IMO.
    And also IMHO M6 is not a true sportscar... I know that many people here will not agree with me. But, hopefully you will!

    Dec 7, 2006 9:04:48 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    You are right again! I think there is a potential engine quality control problem at Lambo... Shame on them if you ask me my opinion!

    Dec 7, 2006 9:09:59 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Agree! But, that car did not have 520hp(test car). Bad motronic or something...
    Here are(unofficial) corrected data for Gallardo 520hp:
    0-100km/h: 3.9s
    0-200km/h:12.6s
    0-250km/h:21.1s
    0-300km/h:40.6s
    Max speed: 318km/h

    Do not forget that first LP640 test in AMS was also not very impressive. On the second run(High speed test) LP640 did far better. Same story with Gallardo...



    I remember a review in another car magazine (Powercar?) and the Gallardo SE did 0-200 kph in over 13 seconds. So I guess there are SUBSTANTIAL fluctuations in power which may indicate a problem with engine quality control.



    Ask VGA18 how he feels about Lambo engine quality .

    Dec 7, 2006 9:17:49 AM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Regarding bad engines in sportscars in general...
    I will not jump to conclusion here but, I saw far too many people that treated their sportscars like garbage. Example-push new high reving engine to 8000rpm in first 800km(!!!) when engine oil is cold!!!! This is bad scenario but, I saw it presonally. You can kill any engine if you are stupid enough.

    In VGA case I hope that he simply had a bad luck with bad engine. But, unfortunately too many people kill their engines with their own actions and later blame car manufactures.

    Dec 7, 2006 9:27:34 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Regarding bad engines in sportscars in general...
    I will not jump to conclusion here but, I saw far too many people that treated their sportscars like garbage. Example-push new high reving engine to 8000rpm in first 800km(!!!) when engine oil is cold!!!! This is bad scenario but, I saw it presonally. You can kill any engine if you are stupid enough.

    In VGA case I hope that he simply had a bad luck with bad engine. But, unfortunately too many people kill their engines with their own actions and later blame car manufactures.



    True. They should be sued by the manufacturer for defamation of their brand. However, I would think VGA18 knows better.

    Dec 7, 2006 11:25:02 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: VGA18

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Also AMS but, on the second( ) run few moths ago.
    BTW, original test was done almost 8 months ago! I do not know what the hell were they waiting for? In January you will see new Gallardo test with metrics that I posted here.
    One other very strange thing-all new Gallardo's are faster in measurements as manuals then e-gear versions!
    Current star is Grigio Proteus Gallardo manual(520hp) with Corsa's(that car was tested with excellent results by Auto Zeitung, Auto Bild and Auto Bild Sportscar edition).





    You are the master as far as test results are concerned









    You are right, I should have been more precise:

    Kreso is the master of future test results
    You are the master of all other test reults

    So basically, two masters of test results on Rennteam



    And MKSGR and I , are the master test result commentators especially above 250kmh



    Dec 7, 2006 11:28:46 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    Your are one of the very few people who did his personal tests and your results are excellent. Also, your conclusion that 0-300km/h of all cars in the same class(997tt, F430 or Gallardo) is more or less at the same level is another excellent work.
    Keep up with the good work!



    Honestly, your input has been a key factor in developing my views And also a key factor behind my decision regarding the 599GTB Many thanks again.

    Dec 7, 2006 11:50:44 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Markus,
    Your are one of the very few people who did his personal tests and your results are excellent. Also, your conclusion that 0-300km/h of all cars in the same class(997tt, F430 or Gallardo) is more or less at the same level is another excellent work.
    Keep up with the good work!



    Honestly, your input has been a key factor in developing my views And also a key factor behind my decision regarding the 599GTB Many thanks again.



    This could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship . Yes, both of you guys have offered extremely valuable insights and challenged some long-standing myths (not to mention broke them). The almighty M6 and the Z06, which were thought to be superior to the Turbo have been revealed for what they really are by Markus and Kreso's information regarding the Gallardo has turned its image from dog to stallion. And the 599? Well, we all wanted that one from Day 1 .

    Dec 7, 2006 12:40:47 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Kreso, If the test was conducted 8 months ago, the Gallardo, if it was not a "Gallardo SE", likely had only 500hp and NOT the shorter gearing of the later made standard Gallardos and Gallardo SE's.

    Based upon your given date of the actual test, It appears that the staff of AMS are blockheads for thinking that the Gallardo they tested 8 months ago would be the equivalent of the then SE or the standard models made this fall and to then opine that something was "out of order."

    As for their "unofficial" corrected figures, those are either editorial fantasies or the numbers from a Gallardo SE or a regular Gallardo produced in the last 90 days.

    AMS needs to admit to their own personal ECU "problems."



    Dec 7, 2006 12:51:30 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Jim,
    Problem was in that Yellow Gallardo. That car simply did not produce power and metrics that Lambo promissed in their official data. Next car(Grigio Proteus) was a lot better. Problem may be in Lambo engine quality control as Christian pointed out.
    All in all this is pretty strange test. Natural winner here is 997 Turbo, not M6 IMHO. Z06 deserves second place also.
    But, as I wrote before "higher politics" is here in charge apparently...

    Dec 7, 2006 12:52:59 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Jim,
    Problem was in that Yellow Gallardo. That car simply did not produce power and metrics that Lambo promissed in their official data. Next car(Grigio Proteus) was a lot better. Problem may be in Lambo engine quality control as Christian pointed out.
    All in all this is pretty strange test. Natural winner here is 997 Turbo, not M6 IMHO. Z06 deserves second place also.
    But, as I wrote before "higher politics" is here in charge apparently...



    Kreso, read the thread in the sticky at the top of the 997TT forum - Official Rennteam Turbo review. The post by watt at the end shows why the Turbo is better.

    Dec 7, 2006 1:04:01 PM

    KresoF1
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Andrej,
    I like Christian review very much! It is as honest as possible and his best write-up on rennteam yet IMHO.
    Regarding watt comment I will say that 997 Turbo is the best universal sportscar for most people and all die hard Porsche fans. Perfect? No. But, why should be? Prone to oversteer? Pretty much in Sport mode. PTM not that good? Yes again. But, best as a package! And you have an option to choose two gearboxes, both very good ones.
    I was pretty suprised with M6 victory in this test to tell you the truth.

    Dec 7, 2006 3:05:40 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: KresoF1

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    I was pretty suprised with M6 victory in this test to tell you the truth.



    No kidding! Most enthusiasts say the car is downright boring. It's heavy and complicated and its engine and transmission setup doesn't exactly inspire confidence in the reliability department. However, it is probably a great car for the non-enthusiast who just wants to floor it on freeways.

    Dec 7, 2006 3:16:47 PM

    VGA18
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Agree! But, that car did not have 520hp(test car). Bad motronic or something...
    Here are(unofficial) corrected data for Gallardo 520hp:
    0-100km/h: 3.9s
    0-200km/h:12.6s
    0-250km/h:21.1s
    0-300km/h:40.6s
    Max speed: 318km/h

    Do not forget that first LP640 test in AMS was also not very impressive. On the second run(High speed test) LP640 did far better. Same story with Gallardo...



    I remember a review in another car magazine (Powercar?) and the Gallardo SE did 0-200 kph in over 13 seconds. So I guess there are SUBSTANTIAL fluctuations in power which may indicate a problem with engine quality control.



    Ask VGA18 how he feels about Lambo engine quality .



    Anyway I love Lamborghini

    Dec 8, 2006 1:00:01 AM

    vladimir
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    Reply to: VGA18

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    can anyone tell me whats the M6 acceleration times 0-300 kmh?

    Btw SL65 with only 610 hp does 0-300 in around 32 seconds if im not mistaken, why LP is so slow up to 300? SLR with CGT is around 30 too i think.

    Dec 8, 2006 4:44:50 AM

    355Spider
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    Reply to: vladimir

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    vladimir said:
    can anyone tell me whats the M6 acceleration times 0-300 kmh?

    Btw SL65 with only 610 hp does 0-300 in around 32 seconds if im not mistaken, why LP is so slow up to 300? SLR with CGT is around 30 too i think.


    You can't look at the Lambos power and compare them to other cars. They have a terribly inefficeient all wheel drive system. It robs 20-25% depending on the car. Porsches is much more efficient. SO when you look at power numbers of 640 you just need to subtract about 25% from it. In the real world it puts a little more power to the wheels that a Z06 does. Then add in the fact that they weigh as much as a boat and you see why they are not as fast as they should be.

    Dec 8, 2006 5:18:18 AM

    vladimir
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    Reply to: 355Spider

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    355Spider said:
    Quote:
    vladimir said:
    can anyone tell me whats the M6 acceleration times 0-300 kmh?

    Btw SL65 with only 610 hp does 0-300 in around 32 seconds if im not mistaken, why LP is so slow up to 300? SLR with CGT is around 30 too i think.


    You can't look at the Lambos power and compare them to other cars. They have a terribly inefficeient all wheel drive system. It robs 20-25% depending on the car. Porsches is much more efficient. SO when you look at power numbers of 640 you just need to subtract about 25% from it. In the real world it puts a little more power to the wheels that a Z06 does. Then add in the fact that they weigh as much as a boat and you see why they are not as fast as they should be.



    Gotcha! I thought otherwise, i mean i know AWD robs power, but didnt know that high end LAMBO would perform that way.

    Dec 8, 2006 6:22:43 AM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: vladimir

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    I feel sorry for M6 buyers, they have to look at it every morning.

    It is bizarre that AMS did not place the 997TT over the M6.
    Maybe BMW's PR department has prettier women working for them.

    Kreso, thank you for the information and details about the AMS test and results.

    Dec 8, 2006 8:44:34 AM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: vladimir

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997tt

    Quote:
    vladimir said:
    can anyone tell me whats the M6 acceleration times 0-300 kmh?

    Btw SL65 with only 610 hp does 0-300 in around 32 seconds if im not mistaken, why LP is so slow up to 300? SLR with CGT is around 30 too i think.



    The M6 does 0-300 in about 47s.

    Tuned to (real, not claimed...) 550-560hp the M6 does 0-300 in around 41s (a friend's car...).

    Dec 8, 2006 9:37:01 AM

    ALDOM
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I feel sorry for M6 buyers, they have to look at it every morning.

    It is bizarre that AMS did not place the 997TT over the M6.
    Maybe BMW's PR department has prettier women working for them.

    Kreso, thank you for the information and details about the AMS test and results.



    There is one thing sure: Porsche has excellent relations to AMS and Sport Auto. If you read AMS or SA you can see who has more advertising published.

    The result in AMS is similar to my observations I have made a few weeks ago. I have even said, that in AMS the M6 would win. I have published it on the German Porsche thread few weeks ago.
    But it is also clear, discussing this things on a Porsche forum will bring every time the Porsche as the winner. You can imagine how people interpret this test on a M6 forum.

    AM

    Dec 10, 2006 5:54:12 PM

    alexis
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    Reply to: ALDOM

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Reading the plate number CY xxxx, is clear that the tested gallardo on ams is an older test mule... the same car tested in quattroruote this summer (0-200 in 14,6) and on other reviews. I think the car is a 2005 model, perhaps an early 06, not even sure a 520 hp model.
    why? the withe se i've seen, has about the same nr. on the license plate (official lamborghini press car) and is dated october 2005... some month bevor the release of the 06 models....
    for me is obvious something on the car is wrong, and this is a bad publicity for lamborghini!!!!!

    Dec 10, 2006 7:33:44 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Reply to: alexis

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    alexis said:
    Reading the plate number CY xxxx, is clear that the tested gallardo on ams is an older test mule... the same car tested in quattroruote this summer (0-200 in 14,6) and on other reviews. I think the car is a 2005 model, perhaps an early 06, not even sure a 520 hp model.
    why? the withe se i've seen, has about the same nr. on the license plate (official lamborghini press car) and is dated october 2005... some month bevor the release of the 06 models....
    for me is obvious something on the car is wrong, and this is a bad publicity for lamborghini!!!!!



    If your theory should be correct that would cast some very unfavorable light on Lamborghini: how stupid one has to be to send an underperforming test car to magzine tests again and again

    Dec 10, 2006 7:48:15 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: MKSGRM

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    alexis said:
    Reading the plate number CY xxxx, is clear that the tested gallardo on ams is an older test mule... the same car tested in quattroruote this summer (0-200 in 14,6) and on other reviews. I think the car is a 2005 model, perhaps an early 06, not even sure a 520 hp model.
    why? the withe se i've seen, has about the same nr. on the license plate (official lamborghini press car) and is dated october 2005... some month bevor the release of the 06 models....
    for me is obvious something on the car is wrong, and this is a bad publicity for lamborghini!!!!!



    If your theory should be correct that would cast some very unfavorable light on Lamborghini: how stupid one has to be to send an underperforming test car to magzine tests again and again



    Well, at least you know that at the very worst your car will perform like the one in the test if you're shopping for one .

    Dec 10, 2006 10:25:02 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    OK. You need a conspricacy theory?

    Audi was ordered by Peich to send a detuned Gallardo to AMS
    to not upstage the 997TT.

    What he did not count on was AMS's new "fat and lazy" category to sweep the competition.

    In the next AMS uber coupe comparo the "450hp" Audi R8 will destroy all competitors for speed and butt room.

    Dec 10, 2006 11:35:02 PM

    Crash
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    OK. You need a conspricacy theory?

    Audi was ordered by Peich to send a detuned Gallardo to AMS
    to not upstage the 997TT.

    What he did not count on was AMS's new "fat and lazy" category to sweep the competition.

    In the next AMS uber coupe comparo the "450hp" Audi R8 will destroy all competitors for speed and butt room.



    No need for a detuned Gallardo when the engines are wearing like crazy . Just let it run and it will blow.

    Dec 11, 2006 12:28:01 AM

    VGA18
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    Reply to: Crash

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    For 0-200 kmh issues i need to say something about Gallardo.

    I have the Test Year 2006(Testjahruch something like that german word) of AMuS.

    There is comprasion between Gallardo 04 E-gear vs F430. Here is the datas,
    0-100km/h: 4.2sec
    0-160km/h: 9.0 sec
    0-200km/h: 13.8 sec

    That car was E-gear and fully optioned with a weight of 1647kg(something like that. Looks so fat to me)

    Anyway i saw a mag result remember it was Sport auto and the result was crap

    0-200km/h: 15.4second unbelieveably, may be a launch start @ second gear . I like Sport auto tests(for track times) but this BS result made me to think again.But there must be something wrong with the car or driver

    Same mag same testyear 2006 F430 has 13.0 second 0-200kmh time which is the worst time i ve ever seen for F430
    Also Auto Zeit. as i iremember Gallardo(04-manuel) did 13.3 second time @ 0-200 km/h.

    06 Gallardo has +20 hp on cranck hp than 04-05 Gallardo but it is claimed that(on dynos) it has +30 +40 hp on wheels than 04-05 Gallardos.

    If i think best time is 13.3 for Gallardo 04 then Gallardo 06 must be 13.0 or less(thats where this idea is in same way that Kreso said 0-200kmh time gallardo will be published as 12.6)

    Again a German mag Auto Zeit. Lp640 vs 997TT test
    Again underrate times for Lambo. 0-200kmh: 12.0 second

    Ok AMuS did 0-100kmh 4.2sec 0-200kmh @ 13.0 sec for M6 which is same with F430(@ 200kmh time). Come on guys F430 and M6 in a drag race go with tie @ 200km/h

    I appreciate German Mags because of they are doing so detailed performance and handling tests but the underrated times makes me annoyed especially non-german cars.

    Dec 11, 2006 8:24:50 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: VGA18

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    I appreciate German Mags because of they are doing so detailed performance and handling tests but the underrated times makes me annoyed especially non-german cars.



    Here we go again with conspiracy theories.

    Back in July this year, we had a Rennteam meeting with several high performance cars, incl. a tuned 993 Turbo, a tuned 996 Turbo and two 997 Turbo Tiptronic, also a 996 GT2 MkII. Trust me if I tell you that the 997 Turbo Tip impressed a lot of people. The 997 Turbo is running like hell, my car has 7000 km now and is pretty much broken in and it runs really fast. I had a F430 encounter, a Z06 encounter, a SL65/SL55 AMG encounter, none of these cars was able to keep up with me up to around 260 kph (higher speeds weren't possible by that time). So the test result of 12-12.6 seconds for the 997 Turbo from 0-200 kph are pretty accurate in my opinion.

    However, I'm not sure about F430 performance since this was my second F430 encounter and the F430 wasn't even able to keep up with me (and yes, he tried since he showed me thumbs up later on ).

    Dec 11, 2006 9:17:57 AM

    alexis
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    ..consider that the accelerations times are only the half part of a car's performance. the really superior performance is in the chassis... and the g. chassis is in my opinion (not only in my opinion, also in autocar 01/06 and evo) clearly superior to 997 and 430. the motor performance (despite some fluctuance in the earliest mod's) of the newest mod (07) are very very good... and a tuby style exaust and a little ecu mods ( coming inofficially by lambo itself!!) are sufficient to achieve about 550 hp. More than enough imho, becouse the roads are not only a straight line....

    Dec 11, 2006 4:23:53 PM

    VGA18
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: German AMS test comparison-M6 vs Z06 vs Gallardo vs 997t

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    I appreciate German Mags because of they are doing so detailed performance and handling tests but the underrated times makes me annoyed especially non-german cars.



    Here we go again with conspiracy theories.

    Back in July this year, we had a Rennteam meeting with several high performance cars, incl. a tuned 993 Turbo, a tuned 996 Turbo and two 997 Turbo Tiptronic, also a 996 GT2 MkII. Trust me if I tell you that the 997 Turbo Tip impressed a lot of people. The 997 Turbo is running like hell, my car has 7000 km now and is pretty much broken in and it runs really fast. I had a F430 encounter, a Z06 encounter, a SL65/SL55 AMG encounter, none of these cars was able to keep up with me up to around 260 kph (higher speeds weren't possible by that time). So the test result of 12-12.6 seconds for the 997 Turbo from 0-200 kph are pretty accurate in my opinion.

    However, I'm not sure about F430 performance since this was my second F430 encounter and the F430 wasn't even able to keep up with me (and yes, he tried since he showed me thumbs up later on ).



    I understand you RC but i didnt directly targeted Porsche . I was directly talking about M6. I am a M5 owner, yup that car is pretty fast as a 4dr , dunno m6 but imo 4.2 and 13.0 is seem pretty overrated to me. As i remember the perfect launch m6 video 200km(on speedo) is about 14 second.
    And the datas for Gallardo 15.4 and 14.6 seem very underrated. I know my car and 15 seconds is really bs.

    That was the my complain. I did say nothing about 997 TT 12.6sec time.
     
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