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    Dec 4, 2006 11:39:40 PM

    IDH
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    Redline??

    Clocked 2000km on my C2S.. Had it since April. Hasn't used up oil at all. My question is can i drive it hard? meaning redlining it frequently or will i hurt the engine's life? All this time i've been driving conservatively - only once in a while reaching the redline. Patience is running out!

    Dec 4, 2006 11:52:28 PM

    Circe
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    Reply to: IDH

    Re: Redline??

    The good book says keep it under 4,200 rpm for the first 2000 miles (3000 km). So for my money I'd go for a few more long drives and be patient until the odo says I can play. Then, the asphault is yours.

    Dec 4, 2006 11:55:39 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: IDH

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    IDH said:
    Clocked 2000km on my C2S.. Had it since April. Hasn't used up oil at all. My question is can i drive it hard? meaning redlining it frequently or will i hurt the engine's life? All this time i've been driving conservatively - only once in a while reaching the redline. Patience is running out!


    Once broken-in, yes, you SHOULD drive it hard to redline frequently (but only when oil temp is at normal operating area - not when cold).

    Dec 5, 2006 3:12:39 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Redline??

    I dunno.

    Would be nice if I could be convinced routinely driving your Porsche engine hard is quite okay. Would make sense for the short term, but if you're gonna keep the car for a while (beyond warrenty) it would seem better to be more conservative with the RPMs.




    Yanmar is an engine maker that used to make verrrry sturdy 20-40hp diesels. They used to last 10k hours or more. They were used in working boats.

    Yanmar then realized these certain models of their engines were mostly going in pleasure sailboats which endured very few hours of operation. Therefore the sturdiness was no longer required. They cheapened those engine models and no one knew any better.

    So, given Porsche's current "mass appeal" and sales boom, I'm not convinced Porsche hasn't taken similar cost-cutting steps. Sorry... .

    Dec 5, 2006 3:21:12 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    I dunno.

    Would be nice if I could be convinced routinely driving your Porsche engine hard is quite okay. Would make sense for the short term, but if you're gonna keep the car for a while (beyond warrenty) it would seem better to be more conservative with the RPMs.




    If I wasn't confident that my Porsches could sustain long-term hard use, I would probably consider a different brand.

    In my experience, Porsches endure and thrive on hard use more than any other brand - one of the reasons I'm so fond of them and why they have an unmatched record in endurance racing. Certainly, the GT3 (with its classic split case dry sump design) is more suited to this type of use than most other current models, but the rest should be rather robust as well...

    Dec 5, 2006 3:31:15 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    Grant said:

    If I wasn't confident that my Porsches could sustain long-term hard use, I would probably consider a different brand.

    In my experience, Porsches endure and thrive on hard use more than any other brand - one of the reasons I'm so fond of them and why they have an unmatched record in endurance racing. Certainly, the GT3 (with its classic split case dry sump design) is more suited to this type of use than most other current models, but the rest should be rather robust as well...




    Yes..., I respect your opinions and experience and hope you are right regarding the 997/S.

    I'm just wondering what's going on in the minds of the elite at Porsche. Perhaps they making changes in how they do things, you know..., success is sometimes one's worst enemy.

    Dec 5, 2006 8:11:26 AM

    GnilM
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    I dunno.

    Would be nice if I could be convinced routinely driving your Porsche engine hard is quite okay. Would make sense for the short term, but if you're gonna keep the car for a while (beyond warranty) it would seem better to be more conservative with the



    There is absolutely not problem redlining the car often when the oil temperature is above 90 degrees. I do it all the time. The car is built to do so, any engine can be taken to the red line ( not above ).
    If one could not do that with a porsche engine It would mean they engine are rubbish.
    Actually the more you take to high revs the better your engine works!!
    I have driven 180000 km with engines that I have driven very hard most of the time, my cars have always run perfectly !!!
    I guess if one does not take his car out when there are a few rain drops falling.. then reving the engine would be scary too ( no offence)

    Dec 5, 2006 10:04:07 AM

    easy_rider911
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Redline??

    I have driven 995 miles so far. When the coolant is normal and the engine oil is above 90C, I take it up to 4000rpm when I get the chance. It actually runs more sweetly up there. And then when the revs fall back to say 2000rpm, the car runs so smoothly having already been driven at 4000rpm.

    The handover guy at Zuffenhausen told me that I could go up to about 5000rpm during break in. He added that (after the first 1000km) I could start to increase the revs by 500rpm every few hundred kms until 3000km when I could then drive it all the way up to 7200rpm. He said it was made to do that.

    But I plan to do this conservatively so I have stayed below 4000rpms and I only plan to go right up to redline after engine break-in is over (2000 miles). I'm following the manual to the letter whether I strictly need to or not.

    Dec 5, 2006 10:06:04 AM

    Porky Tokyo
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Redline??

    These cars were built to be driven - providing they are not cold they will run for well over 100,000 miles without issues HOWEVER, you may still get a RMS issue - which is not related to redlining your car

    Dec 5, 2006 10:13:13 AM

    charliepug
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    Reply to: Porky Tokyo

    Re: Redline??

    kept under 4500rpm till 3200+ km's, now I just about redline my 911 every 2nd day or so, now it's just passed 5000k mark, I can definitely feel engine "loosening' up. It feels it accelerates harder quicker.

    Dec 5, 2006 10:14:26 AM

    icon
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    MMD said:Would be nice if I could be convinced routinely driving your Porsche engine hard is quite okay. Would make sense for the short term, but if you're gonna keep the car for a while (beyond warrenty) it would seem better to be more conservative with the RPMs.
    So, given Porsche's current "mass appeal" and sales boom, I'm not convinced Porsche hasn't taken similar cost-cutting steps. Sorry

    if you thought porsche had taken such cost cutting steps why on earth would you buy one?
    you posted that you regularly ran your car on the back roads at speeds of "mostly 120's and 130's".
    is that your conservative way to make the car last beyond warranty?
    jeff

    Dec 5, 2006 10:43:17 AM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: GnilM

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    Gnil said:

    I guess if one does not take his car out when there are a few rain drops falling.. then reving the engine would be scary too ( no offence)



    Your comment is spot on
    Why buying a Porsche (or any other sportscar for that matter) if one doesn't use the engine for what it's built for
    The beauty of these engines is that they gain a kind of "second breath" (just like a long distance runner) in the higher revs - IMO one of the must fun generating assets any Porsche provides
    For those who are afraid to abuse their cars: there's a rev-limiter showing you the limit
    Single important precaution (like mentioned by others): only go wild after a thourough warm-up.

    Dec 5, 2006 5:25:53 PM

    FLORENT KAVADAS
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: Redline??

    I do agree with Porshce Jeck.

    To tell you the truth I realized how nice and usefull the oil temperature gauge was when I bought my first 206 GTI.
    There were 2 gauges one for the water and one for the oil.
    You then suddenly realize that the oil takes much longer to warm up but then you can go for it...
    The oil gauge was one of the requirments of porsche clients on the 996 if i am not mistaken that considered that this instrument was necessary for a sportscar. In fact most people think the engine is warm when they see the temp gauge wich usually refers to the water but in fact the engine is still cold....

    About redlining your car, once broken in you can start. All my engines have been redlined very often. The rpm ruptor is there to protect your engine and to avoid you going over the rpm that could cause a dammage to it.
    Actually an engine that works in high rev is always better and more agressive as an athlete is when training....

    Morality:Warm up your engine and then engoy it all the way... A bit like a woman fisrt you warm her up and then you....

    Dec 5, 2006 5:38:25 PM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    FLORENT KAVADAS said:
    In fact most people think the engine is warm when they see the temp gauge wich usually refers to the water but in fact the engine is still cold....


    Good advise As a rule of thumb I wait for the water temp to reach 80*C + 10 minutes or 15 km (whatever comes first) until the foreplay is over

    Quote:
    FLORENT KAVADAS said:
    A bit like a woman fisrt you warm her up and then you....


    Hopefully no rev-limiter kicking in (....interruptus)

    Dec 5, 2006 5:42:39 PM

    easy_rider911
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: Redline??

    Interestingly, I've noticed that once the coolant temperature is normal and the oil temperature is over 90C then when I switch off the engine, the engine oil also cools faster than the coolant. After a brief stop (e.g. 30 minutes), the coolant temperature is still normal but the engine oil may already have dipped to 70C or below.

    Dec 5, 2006 5:52:24 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: icon

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    icon said:
    if you thought porsche had taken such cost cutting steps why on earth would you buy one?
    you posted that you regularly ran your car on the back roads at speeds of "mostly 120's and 130's".
    is that your conservative way to make the car last beyond warranty?
    jeff



    I bought my latest Porsche (997S) assuming ALL mfrgs of durable goods are making compromises these days. It's unavoidable. Economies are shrinking and pressures to reduce costs are on.

    For this reason and because the car is excessively complex electronically speaking, I do not intend to hold onto this car beyond the warrenty (gonna trade it in for a Turbo, in fact ).

    So, though I'm loaded with apparent contradictions ( ) ,I often drive the car like I'm the race driver, I let the maint issues be handled by the warrenty (they're the pit crew).


    I was just questioning the basic premise, paraphrased like so:

    Porsche engines are special, you routinely run them to redline and they work even better and last just as long

    There's no proof of this. Seems like a shaky assumpotion to make these days.

    IOW, the harder you make an engine work, the earlier it's demise, makes alot more sense... .




    I'm sorry, I don't want to offend anyone . I'm just trying to gain some insight into this... .

    Dec 5, 2006 5:59:33 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: FLORENT KAVADAS

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    FLORENT KAVADAS said:

    The oil gauge was one of the requirments of porsche clients on the 996 if i am not mistaken that considered that this instrument was necessary for a sportscar. In fact most people think the engine is warm when they see the temp gauge wich usually refers to the water but in fact the engine is still cold....







    Right, the water temp reflects the cylinder temps which, because of burning/exploding gasoline, will shoot up very fast.

    The oil temp, shows the temp of the crankshaft and bearings and other critical components which must expand to attain proper critical clearances.

    Oil temp is what you should pay more attention to at startup.

    Dec 5, 2006 8:15:20 PM

    icon
    Pilot
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    I bought my latest Porsche (997S) assuming ALL mfrgs of durable goods are making compromises these days. It's unavoidable. Economies are shrinking and pressures to reduce costs are on.
    I was just questioning the basic premise, paraphrased like so:
    Porsche engines are special, you routinely run them to redline and they work even better and last just as long
    There's no proof of this. Seems like a shaky assumpotion to make these days.
    IOW, the harder you make an engine work, the earlier it's demise, makes alot more sense...

    where does technology enter your equation?
    why the yanmar analogy? porsche realized that their cars do not get driven in the rain?
    i think you may be the one making shaky assumptions.
    sure mfgs cut costs but not in areas where it would do harm unless they want to go out of business,
    or get a rep for a shoddy product.
    what are you doing to gain insight?
    how fast are you going to hit the back roads in the turbo?
    how come no worries about cutting corners on suspension components when doing "120's and 130's"? death wish?
    where did the tire mfg cut corners?
    jeff

    Dec 5, 2006 8:39:21 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: icon

    Re: Redline??

    I'm sure that Porsche knows the sporting intentions of its customer-base, and engineers the power-train accordingly. Would be stupid to build a high-end sports car that would fall to pieces if one were actually to USE it like a sports car full-time. I'd toss an ignorant bet out there that they they set the redline on these cars well south of what the crank and rods and valvetrain could take, and cammed-timed it appropriately to make the best of the power within that conservative range. Why give customers a redline that truly is on the ragged-edge of what the motor can routinely endure, just to gain a reputation for building a product that blows-up willy-nilly compared to current industry norms. Nope, my experience is that you just can't kill these modern engines with spirited driving unless you lapse on your service routine. They've got crazy tests they perform during drivetrain development where they run engines at redline for flippin DAYS AND DAYS just to see what will happen. They shut different ones down after different lengths of running and tear-down to ascertain wear and fatigue and/or failure/damage, and they run a few as long as it takes for something to cry mercy and break. This all gets recorded, redesigned, tuned-in, and then settled-upon for production such that only manufacturing anomoly and assembly error typically results in an engine that prematurely belches.

    BUT, I have found that alternators sure don't last terribly long at 7 grand and up!!

    Dec 5, 2006 11:54:59 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I'm sure that Porsche knows the sporting intentions of its customer-base, and engineers the power-train accordingly. Would be stupid to build a high-end sports car that would fall to pieces if one were actually to USE it like a sports car full-time.



    I like what you say. They KNOW statistically how much the engine and DT can take.

    Would be interesting to know if they are betting on *today's* average Porsche buyer to more-or-less "baby" their engines and DTs.

    I know Porsche voids their warrenty on their cars if they are tracked. I know from racing engines that you can get a heck of alot of hp/tq performance out of them but they don't last as long.

    Therefore would it be fair to say that Porsche expects the buyers of their road cars to drive them sensibly (only use the redline now and then) and not beat the sheet out of them on a routine basis?

    Their warrenty program will absorb the costs for those few who go nuts and "abuse" the engines on a daily basis.

    Maybe that explains some of the extra high cost of the turbo: to cover warrenty claims. They expect more of the highstrung TT engines to break due to those drivers who beat the sheet out of them on a routine basis.

    IOW, there's very little evidence that you can beat the sh*t out of these engines and get away with it unscathed. There seems to be alot of circumstantial evidence that the opposite is true.

    Another factor: as I said I could care less about this whole issue because I plan to trade the car in in 5 years. Perhaps even this motivation is taken into consideration by Porsche when they decided how sturdy to build their engines?

    Bottom line: the needs, expectations and behaviors of *today's* Porsche buyers are probably very well-defined. My bet is at the most basic design and development level these factors are taken into consideration in order to cut costs. I don't believe ANYTHING is OVERBUILT these days unless the majority of customers explicitly asks for and is willing to pay for it. It's just not profitable to overbuild something in manufacturing.

    WHAT evidence is there that the Porsche engine and DT, today is specially engineered and overbuilt, inorder to withstand constant routine beatings?

    Will be interesting to see how well 997s do when they are 6,7,8 and more years old (compared to 996 era P-cars).

    Dec 6, 2006 12:50:44 AM

    MMD
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    Reply to: icon

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    icon said:

    why the yanmar analogy?
    jeff



    Back in the 90s Yanmar researched who was buying their 3GM30 and 2GM20 marine diessel engine line. They found they were mostly going into pleasure boats (sailboats specifically).

    Up to that point, the engines were going into working boats and were known to withstand well an incredibly harsh and long service life.

    Since they were selling alot more engines as they were mainly going into pleasure boats, and since pleasure boats are characteristically fluffy and eeeeeasy on their engines, Yanmar cheapened these two models, made them less hearty.

    The MSRP of the engine continued going up, because of reputation among boater$ (most of whom have the money to burn) but the quality (how long they last) went down.

    It's a little funny these days how marketing research effects design and manufacturing?

    Dec 6, 2006 1:04:20 AM

    icon
    Pilot
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Redline??

    where does technology enter your equation?
    i think you may be the one making shaky assumptions.
    sure mfgs cut costs but not in areas where it would do harm unless they want to go out of business,
    or get a rep for a shoddy product.
    what are you doing to gain insight?
    how fast are you going to hit the back roads in the turbo?
    how come no worries about cutting corners on suspension components when doing "120's and 130's"? death wish?
    where did the tire mfg cut corners?
    jeff

    Dec 6, 2006 4:32:50 AM

    burbank997
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    Re: Redline??

    You guys write funny posts. A car engine is a machine, nothing more. This newer generation of motors is better, lasts longer, is more robust than the last. Right now the local porsche shop that I go to (not the dealer) is doing lots of valve jobs on 993's. It appears that 993 heads are good for about 100 miles and the the valves are shot! Why? Air cooling. Whenever you get a compression ratio above 10-1 on an air cooled engine, you get hot spots in the head that can't be cooled effectively, and you get worn out valves much quicker. I know this from motorcycles, which went through the same air cooled, to liquid cooled transformation in the 80's and 90's. The new motors can run much tighter tolerances than the old, and precise temperature control is key in engine longevity. It is very important to warm up your car completely before putting it under stress, but unfortunately, your main journal bearings don't know the difference from idling, and being run at 3000 rpms. They are still just going around..., so maybe warming the car up quicker is better??? does that mean revving your car up?

    At the race track, when I ran AMA nationals, we warmed our bikes up by reving them.

    We also broke our bikes in ruthlessly. Honestly, I truly felt that motors that were broken in hard, where broken in better. I think auto trany's need to be broken in, but engines...I always broke it in the same way I drove em. I give an engine several heat cycles, just idling it, then just a few long drives at varing RPM's to run in the rings, and then it's on. I'm not breaking my car in anymore, and I've just broke 1000 miles.

    There is absolutely no question that these new engines are going to last longer than the old. U know horizontal cylinders wear out much quicker than inline cylinders...why? Gravity pulls down on your pistons, and that wears out your cylinders unevenly, bottoms first...what can you do? DON'T WORRY. Run the thing like there's no tomorrow, and if the thing breaks..FIX IT. Then run it again...like there's no tomorrow. You certainly don't need to worry about the idiosyncrasies of your engine. Your not going to have the thing for more than a couple years anyhow!

    Dec 6, 2006 4:52:21 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: burbank997

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    burbank997 said:
    It appears that 993 heads are good for about 100 miles and the the valves are shot! Why? Air cooling.


    That is not the case. The 993 can suffer from early valve guide failure due to poor quality valve guides being used. They used a material that was ill-fitting and not robust. The valves and heads themselves show no such early wear. It is not a heat-related phenomenon.

    When these motors receive aftermarket valve guides, they can run for over two hundred thousand miles...

    Dec 6, 2006 4:20:01 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Redline??

    Nice post burbank997. Thanks.

    Dec 6, 2006 5:43:45 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: burbank997

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    burbank997 said: U know horizontal cylinders wear out much quicker than inline cylinders...why? Gravity pulls down on your pistons, and that wears out your cylinders unevenly, bottoms first...what can you do?


    So, I guess a 90-degree V8 motor would suffer from this phenomenon also, but only 1/2 as big a problem...

    Dec 6, 2006 6:57:35 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    burbank997 said: U know horizontal cylinders wear out much quicker than inline cylinders...why? Gravity pulls down on your pistons, and that wears out your cylinders unevenly, bottoms first...what can you do?


    So, I guess a 90-degree V8 motor would suffer from this phenomenon also, but only 1/2 as big a problem...



    I've heard the theory in the past that the lower bore surface of horizontal cylinder engines wear faster, but do we really KNOW that it is true?

    I have my doubts that the 1 g additional acceleration imposed by gravity adds significantly to the wear of the bottom bore surface when compared to the much higher lateral accelerations the piston is subjected to during high engine speed operation.

    Dec 6, 2006 7:15:17 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Redline??

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    burbank997 said: U know horizontal cylinders wear out much quicker than inline cylinders...why? Gravity pulls down on your pistons, and that wears out your cylinders unevenly, bottoms first...what can you do?


    So, I guess a 90-degree V8 motor would suffer from this phenomenon also, but only 1/2 as big a problem...



    I've heard the theory in the past that the lower bore surface of horizontal cylinder engines wear faster, but do we really KNOW that it is true?

    I have my doubts that the 1 g additional acceleration imposed by gravity adds significantly to the wear of the bottom bore surface when compared to the much higher lateral accelerations the piston is subjected to during high engine speed operation.


    I agree, Fritz. Seems like at the piston speeds we're discussing, the effect of gravity would be minimal...

    Dec 6, 2006 8:15:33 PM

    Scotty A
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Redline??

    1. Machines have a limited lifetime, being physical devices. Parts wear from friction and stress. So, the harder you use the machine, the shorter the life; the more you use the machine, the less life is left.

    Porsche, Yugo, Schwinn bicycle - all subject to physics.

    2. Porsches either are, or aren't, designed to withstand a particular level of (ab)use for a particular lifetime. We don't have to data to really evaluate whether or not they are meeting some particular standard life, although it's fair to say that they last long enough, and withstand enough hard use, to satisfy virtually everyone on this board.

    3. My personal experience - not backed by any large statistical sample - is that modern cars are FAR better than older ones, in general. Today's Carolla will outrun almost anything built in the 1930s; today's Porsche will outrun most race cars built in the 1950s. Lifetimes are getting longer for most components in most cars as well, as measured by manufacturer's scheduled maintenance intervals.

    Dec 6, 2006 9:34:31 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: Scotty A

    Re: Redline??

    I agree with everything Scotty said. And he's right, today's drivelines are indeed better built and more durable (engineering and materials and tolerance advancements). In the 50's, the engines were strong as oxen, but you never heard of anybody going past 100,000 miles without needing a rebuild... Todays cars can eclipse 1/2 million if serviced religiously and driven conservatively.

    I know, I've got a warehouse full of the old stuff...
     
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