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    997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Yes, engine broke down on my June delivery 997 Turbo at just over 6000 kilometers. Now waiting for a new engine from Germany. Quite a disappointment as you can imagine, also because this makes the second time a Porsche leaves me stranded on the same bit of autostrada (I owned a C2 996 which suffered engine bearings failure at 70.000km. Porsche paid for a new engine then, although it was well out of warranty).
    Not sure which component(s) failed because Porsche doesn't want the dealer to open the engine (they have to ship it to the factory) but it sounds like the usual suspects (a rod or bearing failure in the dry sumped block which has been the weak point of this engine since Porsche went to liquid cooled). The epicenter of the noise is the area of the last two cilyinders (1 and 2 I think it is, the two closer to the bumber to be clear). Porsche gotta start investing the money it makes off of us into updating this old block rather than buying stakes in Wolksvagens and rebadging its cars. Funny this happened while I was driving to put a deposit on an April delivery r8. It was meant to be a second sports car, not a replacement for the Turbo, and hence I was questioning whether it made sense as a purchase given it won't touch the Turbo for torque or power. Now I am glad I did.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    i thought the gt1 engine was "indestructible"?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    I can confirm it ain't

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    sounds like bad luck more than anything... I hope! :-) don't want MY C2S breaking down on me! :-)

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    You had bad luck, and your case must be one in one thousand, the GT1 block is bullet proof and best engine Porsche has for years, same can't be said about your 996C2 , those are prone to blow.

    J.Seven

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Yes, engine broke down on my June delivery 997 Turbo at just over 6000 kilometers. Now waiting for a new engine from Germany. Quite a disappointment as you can imagine, also because this makes the second time a Porsche leaves me stranded on the same bit of autostrada (I owned a C2 996 which suffered engine bearings failure at 70.000km. Porsche paid for a new engine then, although it was well out of warranty).
    Not sure which component(s) failed because Porsche doesn't want the dealer to open the engine (they have to ship it to the factory) but it sounds like the usual suspects (a rod or bearing failure in the dry sumped block which has been the weak point of this engine since Porsche went to liquid cooled). The epicenter of the noise is the area of the last two cilyinders (1 and 2 I think it is, the two closer to the bumber to be clear). Porsche gotta start investing the money it makes off of us into updating this old block rather than buying stakes in Wolksvagens and rebadging its cars. Funny this happened while I was driving to put a deposit on an April delivery r8. It was meant to be a second sports car, not a replacement for the Turbo, and hence I was questioning whether it made sense as a purchase given it won't touch the Turbo for torque or power. Now I am glad I did.


    Probably very bad luck, was there anything out of the ordinary during those 6000 km?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Nothing out of the ordinary I would say. It would smokewhen started in the moring during the first few thousand km, but only in the morning and for the first few seconds of running time. The smoke was light colored and relatively heavy so I am not sure what proportion of water (condensation) and oil it contained. Showed it to the dealer and he said it was normal because of delivery greases in the exhaust, unburnt fuel/oil and or other components and condensation moisture.

    Oil consumption was normal (less than 1 kg in the 6000km I ran it).
    Then the ticking noise appeared between 3600 and 5000 rpm under medium load. I immediately recognized it having had the same issue on the 996 but hoped to be wrong, also because it was very faint. In a few km it became louder and couldn't even make it to the dealer, had to call the tow truck.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Had the same thing happen on my 996 TT- one of the first ones in the US. Same noise, engine replaced in less than a week and the car was forever perfect after that. I was told, whether it's true or not(?) that the replacement engines are really given an extra careful quality inspection before being sent out. Good luck- Never hurt my resale value either as it never showed up as a different engine.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    scary story... even if everything is being sorted out by the dealer under warranty... I'd hate to have any major work done to my car, given I got a slight Obsessive Compulsive Disrorder!!! hehehe I flipped just for having to replace the coolant radiator on my C2S, on my first 100 miles, as it burst from a speeding mini-rock on the highway!

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    catdog said:
    i thought the gt1 engine was "indestructible"?



    He just has bad luck, like always...sh.t happens.
    This "old" design is actually the best thing on this engine, believe it or not. I drove myself 17000 km with a 543 HP tuned engine, the buyer of my car another 50000 km or so without problems. One of our staff members drives a 600 HP tuned Turbo, has more than 100000 km with it.
    I also know many other who have tuned engines and never had a problem.
    The whole engine exchange procedure (not opening it) is pretty normal in such an early stage of production. This is why I WARN people all the time to tune the engine because if it breaks down, it has to be sent to Porsche and you're busted. A new engine is aprox. 35000 Euro, each turbo charger aprox. 2500 Euro. Do the math.

    Btw: my 997 Turbo has already 6800 km, car is 5 months old, always driven very hard. No engine problem so far, actually NO problem so far. Perfect car.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    catdog said:
    i thought the gt1 engine was "indestructible"?



    He just has bad luck, like always...sh.t happens.
    This "old" design is actually the best thing on this engine, believe it or not. I drove myself 17000 km with a 543 HP tuned engine, the buyer of my car another 50000 km or so without problems. One of our staff members drives a 600 HP tuned Turbo, has more than 100000 km with it.
    I also know many other who have tuned engines and never had a problem.
    The whole engine exchange procedure (not opening it) is pretty normal in such an early stage of production. This is why I WARN people all the time to tune the engine because if it breaks down, it has to be sent to Porsche and you're busted. A new engine is aprox. 35000 Euro, each turbo charger aprox. 2500 Euro. Do the math.

    Btw: my 997 Turbo has already 6800 km, car is 5 months old, always driven very hard. No engine problem so far, actually NO problem so far. Perfect car.


    you know very well that it is very easy to reflash an ecu to stock settings before sending the broken car/engine to the dealer. I am not advising to do that, but you will never be busted if you don't have any other mods. Most tuners will reflash for free.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    you know very well that it is very easy to reflash an ecu to stock settings before sending the broken car/engine to the dealer. I am not advising to do that, but you will never be busted if you don't have any other mods. Most tuners will reflash for free.



    You know very well that you're pretty naive, do you?
    Fact 1: Porsche asks for a motronic printout where the number of flashing actions are registered and many other things in short codes which only Porsche can decipher.
    Fact 2: maximum rev and boost pressure figures are permanently registered in the ECU
    Fact 3: operation time, etc. are saved into the speedo ECU, making it possible for Porsche to verify certain "anomalies", for example if you're using a second motronic unit
    Fact 4: by looking at the damage, Porsche can tell a lot of things abnout rev figures, boost pressure, etc. If the damage is directly related to the tuning, they find it.

    Don't take it personal but reflashing the ECU isn't helping at all, you just fell for the typical Tuner marketing talk ("not detectable"...bla bla bla).

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    you know very well that it is very easy to reflash an ecu to stock settings before sending the broken car/engine to the dealer. I am not advising to do that, but you will never be busted if you don't have any other mods. Most tuners will reflash for free.



    You know very well that you're pretty naive, do you?
    Fact 1: Porsche asks for a motronic printout where the number of flashing actions are registered and many other things in short codes which only Porsche can decipher.
    Fact 2: maximum rev and boost pressure figures are permanently registered in the ECU
    Fact 3: operation time, etc. are saved into the speedo ECU, making it possible for Porsche to verify certain "anomalies", for example if you're using a second motronic unit
    Fact 4: by looking at the damage, Porsche can tell a lot of things abnout rev figures, boost pressure, etc. If the damage is directly related to the tuning, they find it.

    Don't take it personal but reflashing the ECU isn't helping at all, you just fell for the typical Tuner marketing talk ("not detectable"...bla bla bla).


    Well, thanks for the insult (even with the wink), being misinformed is not naive. I know the car registers the over revs. etc. but share with us how you learned that the ecu remembers the numbers of flashes etc.., do you know someone who got busted because of an ecu flash? if so, why are you recommending to people to wait a few months then tune their cars, they will get busted anyway if what you say is true, they should wait 4 years instead.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    you know very well that it is very easy to reflash an ecu to stock settings before sending the broken car/engine to the dealer. I am not advising to do that, but you will never be busted if you don't have any other mods. Most tuners will reflash for free.



    You know very well that you're pretty naive, do you?
    Fact 1: Porsche asks for a motronic printout where the number of flashing actions are registered and many other things in short codes which only Porsche can decipher.
    Fact 2: maximum rev and boost pressure figures are permanently registered in the ECU
    Fact 3: operation time, etc. are saved into the speedo ECU, making it possible for Porsche to verify certain "anomalies", for example if you're using a second motronic unit
    Fact 4: by looking at the damage, Porsche can tell a lot of things abnout rev figures, boost pressure, etc. If the damage is directly related to the tuning, they find it.

    Don't take it personal but reflashing the ECU isn't helping at all, you just fell for the typical Tuner marketing talk ("not detectable"...bla bla bla).



    RC, Why doesn't porsche allow for an X-50 retrofit at the dealership?...it seems to me there must be a cost prohibitive reason for it not being available. I suspect this statement won't endear me to all but I would much rather get a stock retrofit than use a tuner. As a porsche customer I just feel better with that arrangement. But yet it's not available..why...does anybody know?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Porsche gotta start investing the money it makes off of us into updating this old block rather than buying stakes in Wolksvagens and rebadging its cars.



    Laugh.

    That's quite poignant and true. But that wouldn't be the direction of a profit-driven corporation...

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    I think RC has a point - look what Audi did to the A4 and S4 tuners - pulled enough data on cars to deny warranty claims on alot of blown drivetrains.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Why even bother tuning a 997TT, 480 HP is more than 95% of the people who buy them can handle. If you can run a stock 997TT at 9/10ths-10/10ths at a track like Watkin's Glen, then you can put a serious hurt on just about any porche ever made, (including the new GT3, GT3RS, and any 996 variant up to and including the GT2). You're money would be better spent learning to drive what you(or your Dad) already have. If you'd rather spend your money on junk-ass wheels and half-assed ecu 'mods' have at it, but don't cry when s&^%t breaks and porsche won't warranty the repair.
    How much HP do you really need on a street car anyhow?
    Just the devil's advocate here.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I think RC has a point - look what Audi did to the A4 and S4 tuners - pulled enough data on cars to deny warranty claims on alot of blown drivetrains.



    I heard about that, but did those include ecu only mods? or significant mods of engine/drivetrain? I have no doubt porsche will try to deny as many claims as possible but my issue was with the ecu flash only.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    You sure won't see me tuning a Porsche engine. Apart from being unnecessary or even counterproductive on the road (why raise the torque delivery range? will the clutch hold it? if not do you really want to deal with a heavy racing clutch?), call me overcautios but I would really be concerned about reliability. Factor in a blown engine not covered by warranty over the price of a new 997 TT and you are looking at close to 200k. Do I want to risk spending 200k to drive a 500+hp Turbo?
    It might be that my case is one out of a thousand but it certainly feels Porsche might have reached the limit on this block. Why on earth did they increase the power on the new unit only a few HP over the old Turbo S otherwise, particularly when a Mercedes easily surpasses 500hp these days. Why only a small horsepower increase when they invested so much in this new variable turbine tech? Why does the engine sound so strained and unwilling to rev. beyond 5000rpm, almost like an old school mill? Why are they so afraid to increase displacement in these engines? After all their cars are getting bigger and bigger like everyone elses (ever seen a 996/996 wide body side by side with a 964 RS, don't they look like mother and cub?) and that's why the other manufactures have risen to the challenge making brand new engines that increase displacement without increasing weight or center of gravity over the old mills. Audi (v8 fsi and v10), Mercedes (6.2 v8) and BMW (5.0 v10) have all developed, FROM SCRATCH and in record time, brand new engines to address this. These are fantastic units, high revving and full of technology. They also don't weigh more than the smaller units they replaced, often in fact less. Porsche still has us on the same displacement that was powering the 964 along. Why can't they push up displacement a bit.

    I tell you why, they know the old block can't take it, and they are too cheap to invest in a new one. It used to be that the Turbo was the most insanely overpowered car on the market. Now it can't match an amg executive sedan for output. And there is a chance the new clk black series may even come to match if for power to weight ratio! I might be wrong but it looks like they reached the end of the line with this hardware if you ask me. To take the 997 turbo to 600+ hp would mean to approach 200 hp per liter and at this time they simply don't have the technology to do that. If you think then that you can run your engine at competition levels of specific output with just a few tweaks done by a shadetree mechanic, when everything hangs on an outdated block, you are fooling yourself. It may work for you, even for 100.000 miles. But to me just the thought that I am sitting on something that may blow anytime and I need to rely just on the law of probability to get home on a cold night is enough to make the journey very unconfortable.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    I think RC has a point - look what Audi did to the A4 and S4 tuners - pulled enough data on cars to deny warranty claims on alot of blown drivetrains.



    I heard about that, but did those include ecu only mods? or significant mods of engine/drivetrain? I have no doubt porsche will try to deny as many claims as possible but my issue was with the ecu flash only.



    RC has had his old car tuned and also has extensive ties to Porsche and AMS. I'd say he knows what he's talking about.
    Like he said, they can detect a change in the Motronic and this by simply printing out the engine operation data. A stock engine runs within certain parameters - a tuned one doesn't. Then all they have to do is check for reflashes (which the ECU does store) and there goes your warranty and $50.000.
    My friend owns an ECU tuning outfit here and he told me straight that while it is true that the manufacturer can't retreive the map itself, he will very easily find out whether the car has been tuned or not, if he deems it worth his time to do so.
    Of course most of the time this isn't an issue, but if the engine blows, you will have a serious problem.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    You sure won't see me tuning a Porsche engine. Apart from being unnecessary or even counterproductive on the road (why raise the torque delivery range? will the clutch hold it? if not do you really want to deal with a heavy racing clutch?), call me overcautios but I would really be concerned about reliability. Factor in a blown engine not covered by warranty over the price of a new 997 TT and you are looking at close to 200k. Do I want to risk spending 200k to drive a 500+hp Turbo?
    It might be that my case is one out of a thousand but it certainly feels Porsche might have reached the limit on this block. Why on earth did they increase the power on the new unit only a few HP over the old Turbo S otherwise, particularly when a Mercedes easily surpasses 500hp these days. Why only a small horsepower increase when they invested so much in this new variable turbine tech? Why does the engine sound so strained and unwilling to rev. beyond 5000rpm, almost like an old school mill? Why are they so afraid to increase displacement in these engines? After all their cars are getting bigger and bigger like everyone elses (ever seen a 996/996 wide body side by side with a 964 RS, don't they look like mother and cub?) and that's why the other manufactures have risen to the challenge making brand new engines that increase displacement without increasing weight or center of gravity over the old mills. Audi (v8 fsi and v10), Mercedes (6.2 v8) and BMW (5.0 v10) have all developed, FROM SCRATCH and in record time, brand new engines to address this. These are fantastic units, high revving and full of technology. They also don't weigh more than the smaller units they replaced, often in fact less. Porsche still has us on the same displacement that was powering the 964 along. Why can't they push up displacement a bit.

    I tell you why, they know the old block can't take it, and they are too cheap to invest in a new one. It used to be that the Turbo was the most insanely overpowered car on the market. Now it can't match an amg executive sedan for output. And there is a chance the new clk black series may even come to match if for power to weight ratio! I might be wrong but it looks like they reached the end of the line with this hardware if you ask me. To take the 997 turbo to 600+ hp would mean to approach 200 hp per liter and at this time they simply don't have the technology to do that. If you think then that you can run your engine at competition levels of specific output with just a few tweaks done by a shadetree mechanic, when everything hangs on an outdated block, you are fooling yourself. It may work for you, even for 100.000 miles. But to me just the thought that I am sitting on something that may blow anytime and I need to rely just on the law of probability to get home on a cold night is enough to make the journey very unconfortable.



    Not exactly true. The 3,8 block can take close to 700 RELIABLE bhp. However, and that's a big but, you forgot to factor in the marketing.

    The Turbo starts at 480 bhp. You then have to accomodate the powerkit at about 510-520 bhp. Next comes the GT2 at around 530 bhp. After that, mind you, you need to outfit the 998 model range. Sure Porsche can do it, but why would they? Their car is as fast as anything else in its class and is selling well. It would be nonsensical from a business standpoint to try to give more when you are already at the top.

    CR, one of the founding fathers of Rennteam, drives around in a 600 bhp 996 Turbo. He hammers it on the Autobahn daily, drives it the way it is meant to be driven and the car is as solid as a rock. And it is also around 5 years old.

    RC has said himself that he did around 100.000 km in his Turbo, most of them tuned at 543 bhp. He then sold it and the new owner has now clocked an extra 50.000 km, trouble free. Oh yes, the potential is there, and so is reliability. What they fall prey to however, is marketing.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    You sure won't see me tuning a Porsche engine. Apart from being unnecessary or even counterproductive on the road (why raise the torque delivery range? will the clutch hold it? if not do you really want to deal with a heavy racing clutch?), call me overcautios but I would really be concerned about reliability. Factor in a blown engine not covered by warranty over the price of a new 997 TT and you are looking at close to 200k. Do I want to risk spending 200k to drive a 500+hp Turbo?
    It might be that my case is one out of a thousand but it certainly feels Porsche might have reached the limit on this block. Why on earth did they increase the power on the new unit only a few HP over the old Turbo S otherwise, particularly when a Mercedes easily surpasses 500hp these days. Why only a small horsepower increase when they invested so much in this new variable turbine tech? Why does the engine sound so strained and unwilling to rev. beyond 5000rpm, almost like an old school mill? Why are they so afraid to increase displacement in these engines? After all their cars are getting bigger and bigger like everyone elses (ever seen a 996/996 wide body side by side with a 964 RS, don't they look like mother and cub?) and that's why the other manufactures have risen to the challenge making brand new engines that increase displacement without increasing weight or center of gravity over the old mills. Audi (v8 fsi and v10), Mercedes (6.2 v8) and BMW (5.0 v10) have all developed, FROM SCRATCH and in record time, brand new engines to address this. These are fantastic units, high revving and full of technology. They also don't weigh more than the smaller units they replaced, often in fact less. Porsche still has us on the same displacement that was powering the 964 along. Why can't they push up displacement a bit.

    I tell you why, they know the old block can't take it, and they are too cheap to invest in a new one. It used to be that the Turbo was the most insanely overpowered car on the market. Now it can't match an amg executive sedan for output. And there is a chance the new clk black series may even come to match if for power to weight ratio! I might be wrong but it looks like they reached the end of the line with this hardware if you ask me. To take the 997 turbo to 600+ hp would mean to approach 200 hp per liter and at this time they simply don't have the technology to do that. If you think then that you can run your engine at competition levels of specific output with just a few tweaks done by a shadetree mechanic, when everything hangs on an outdated block, you are fooling yourself. It may work for you, even for 100.000 miles. But to me just the thought that I am sitting on something that may blow anytime and I need to rely just on the law of probability to get home on a cold night is enough to make the journey very unconfortable.



    They have the Twin Turbo V8 from Cayenne that will be tuned to fit the new Panamera, so they are not falling behind the competition in this regard, and they will pump up the power for GT2 in the region of +/- 530hp with this same block. Many would have said back in 2000 what you are saying now, the power difference from 993TT for 996TT was ridiculous (12HP) and 993TT S had more 30Hp than 996TT.

    I understand what you're saying, sonner or later Porsche will have to change the philosophy behing the 911 number, they did it in 1997 when water cooled engine came in, they will do it again in a form of a V8 or big displacement engine, maybe 911 will become in future a midle engine sports car, who knows.

    I belive the 911 will remain a rear engine sports car with small displacement engine. The turbo technology will be their support to increase power, and next generatin of VTG Turbos will prove that.

    J.Seven

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    Well, thanks for the insult (even with the wink), being misinformed is not naive. I know the car registers the over revs. etc. but share with us how you learned that the ecu remembers the numbers of flashes etc.., do you know someone who got busted because of an ecu flash? if so, why are you recommending to people to wait a few months then tune their cars, they will get busted anyway if what you say is true, they should wait 4 years instead.



    Well, it wasn't meant to be an isult, I apologize if you misunderstood it (the wink should have done the job ).
    Why do I recommend to wait a couple of months "only" to modify the ECU although I know how easy it is for Porsche to find out? Simple: we all are humans. We all want more power and we all care more or less about the consequences.
    People will always get more power, no matter if they risk their warranty, this has happened in the past and it will happen again. The "advantage" of waiting a couple of months is that Tuners get more experience with their kits and possible (fatal) problems may be sorted out by then.
    Another "advantage" is the number of kms/mls you put on your car since most engine/gearbox problems usually appear under 10000 km/6000 mls, so when you put more mileage on your car, the better the chances that the engine and gearbox are reliable and trouble-free.

    Personally, I would prefer installing a powerkit from Porsche but since Porsche still didn't learn from past mistakes, I have no choice. It would be very easy for them to offer a powerkit from the start or at least to make a retrofit possible. Why do you think Porsche has chosen the new VTG chargers to be almost at the possible boost limit, simply because they knew that a bunch of Tuners will offer ECU mods for the new 997 Turbo. Imagine what would have happened if the 997 Turbo would achieve the 480 HP with 0.8 bar max. boost pressure only.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    I tell you why, they know the old block can't take it, and they are too cheap to invest in a new one. It used to be that the Turbo was the most insanely overpowered car on the market. Now it can't match an amg executive sedan for output. And there is a chance the new clk black series may even come to match if for power to weight ratio! I might be wrong but it looks like they reached the end of the line with this hardware if you ask me. To take the 997 turbo to 600+ hp would mean to approach 200 hp per liter and at this time they simply don't have the technology to do that. If you think then that you can run your engine at competition levels of specific output with just a few tweaks done by a shadetree mechanic, when everything hangs on an outdated block, you are fooling yourself. It may work for you, even for 100.000 miles. But to me just the thought that I am sitting on something that may blow anytime and I need to rely just on the law of probability to get home on a cold night is enough to make the journey very unconfortable.



    I don't want to insult you but are you sure you know what you're talking about? Just curious.
    Because my experience, not only with one car but with dozends of other cars owned by friends and people I know, tells me completely different. You should also talk to Uwe Alzen about your claim, he will laugh his pants off.

    The engine is actually the best part on the 997 Turbo.

    You may be disappointed right now, you may even experience a pretty bad phase of bitterness and maybe even rage. However, I must really tell you that you're completely wrong. Sh.t happens and it happened to you. Welcome to real life, as much as it may hurt.

    Btw: I had a broken gearbox on my 996 Turbo...before I tuned it. Drove afterwards over 20000 km (17000 km of it tuned) and the new owner over 50000 km with a new gearbox without problems.

    Like it or not...you just had bad luck and if somebody wants to tell you that the 997 Turbo engine isn't good enough, apparently somebody is making fun of you or just trying to find an explenation how this can happen on such a car. It CAN happen...welcome to real life.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Do I know what I am talking about when I talk about reliability of a tuned turbo engine? Probably not, but who does? But "Bitterness or rage" about reliability is hardly a play in this discussions. Clearly I have my doubts about Porsche reliability whereas you don't. And obviously I am now very suspicious about the issue after two engines blowing on me. But more than bitter this makes me weary, certainly weary about tuning one of these engines. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am not. Nobody knows really because, as you are well aware, even a manufacturer will not make an assumption on the reliability of an engine based on whether a few samples were able to withstand stresses 30 or even 40% above standard. So, statistically (and statistics is the only thing that counts when analyzing reliability, because reliability is a statistical function) I am afraid you just don't know what you talking about either. This because your experience on a few tuned engines is statistically irrelevant. Had you run hundreds or, better, thousands of engines in this configuration then you could make a statement here, otherwise you are just taking chances. Taking chances is ok, but it's not science. And I won't do it with my money because if the engine blows, yes as in my case, it's with my money that I got to buy a new one. And my money always trusts my judgement alone:-). The Porsche warranties department is apparently not interested in experimenting with me either ;-)!
    Most racing car these days finish a season without blowing an engine after being driven at the limit for thousands of kilometers. Does that mean that race levels of output are to be reccomended for road use? No.
    In my view someone can credibly claim to know about reliability on a Porsche turbo engine when is pushed close to 600hp only if he runs an engine manufacturing concern that has tested several engines to that output level. To my knowledge even the largest tuners in Germany find this hard to do because of the R&D costs involved. They are simply glad to run their test on their customer base.
    So in a sense you know what you are talking about, because you are one of the testers on the matter!
    By this assumption, if on your 10th tuned engine you blow a crankcase I am right and you are wrong, because that means a one in ten chance to blow an engine in 50 to 100k kms which today is probably sub-par even by racing car standards. Until then, you just don't know. So see you in one million miles then! In the meantime don't expect me to partecipate into your test (which was the point of my posting): again, if I get an urge for 600hp I'll put my money where I also get a warranty and resale value.

    On the issue of technical advancement instead, there I think I know what I am talking about. I know that a 6.2 v8 turning 8000rpm in a road car was absolutely science fiction until a couple of years ago. I know that a specific output of 100hp per liter (like on the m5 v10) on a large (5.0) engine had never been reached before on a large production car. I know that Bmw and Mercedes Amg have now developed and mass produce engines that reach these levels without being force fed. While I also know that a 50% to 100% of increase in output by force feeding the engine is no technological feat and was done even 50 years ago. Can you imagine what would happen if you turbocharged the Mercedes 6.2 or the Audi 4.2?
    I'd like you to consider the above and show me where the Porsche engine technology is superior. When last did you see a brand new engine developed by Porsche except maybe for the Carrera gt v10 (which is not mass produced and which gives an output marginally superior to that of my ML63, which my wife uses to go shopping and which has a torque deliver far flatter). When last did you see a new Porsche engine which broke new ground in terms of configuration, rpm, geometry, output, weight, sound, etc.
    C'mon even on the Cayenne they use an old slow Audi engine which couldn't touch the ML's 500hp if it wasn't for the force feeding and which even audi is discontinuing as obsolete!
    And, please notice, I made these considerations even before my unit blew. I buy Porsche because the package AROUND the engine goes and handles better than most anything else on the road.
    Instead of calling me bitter or enraged consider I may be a discerning customers rather than a blind brand loyalist.
    And it's on technical grounds, rather than emotional ones, that I dismiss this technology as no longer cutting edge.
    Actually, if emotions were to be part of the equation, then my judgement of my car's engine would be even harsher, now that I think about it.
    Emotionally, my 997TT engine hardly keeps me awake at night but I am as excited as a baby about the r8 I ordered just because I heard the noise it makes on the web and it gave me shivers. Racy, deep, thrilling. Even my ml63 has a much better sound and rises in rpm with a better and more involving crescendo! Never, before or after getting the 997tt, I have been excited at the idea of turning the key. Yes, it covers ground as I am in a playstation (but that's more down to the package around the engine rather than the engine itself), but the engine is far from being exciting to run.
    So, yes, let's leave emotions aside and let's talk about facts. Where do you think I got my facts wrong about Porsche being left behind in the engine innovation race? Where, exactly, don't I know what I am talking about?

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Quote:
    Porschist said:
    Do I know what I am talking about when I talk about reliability of a tuned turbo engine? Probably not, but who does? But "Bitterness or rage" about reliability is hardly a play in this discussions. Clearly I have my doubts about Porsche reliability whereas you don't. And obviously I am now very suspicious about the issue after two engines blowing on me. But more than bitter this makes me weary, certainly weary about tuning one of these engines. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am not. Nobody knows really because, as you are well aware, even a manufacturer will not make an assumption on the reliability of an engine based on whether a few samples were able to withstand stresses 30 or even 40% above standard. So, statistically (and statistics is the only thing that counts when analyzing reliability, because reliability is a statistical function) I am afraid you just don't know what you talking about either. This because your experience on a few tuned engines is statistically irrelevant. Had you run hundreds or, better, thousands of engines in this configuration then you could make a statement here, otherwise you are just taking chances. Taking chances is ok, but it's not science. And I won't do it with my money because if the engine blows, yes as in my case, it's with my money that I got to buy a new one. And my money always trusts my judgement alone:-). The Porsche warranties department is apparently not interested in experimenting with me either ;-)!
    Most racing car these days finish a season without blowing an engine after being driven at the limit for thousands of kilometers. Does that mean that race levels of output are to be reccomended for road use? No.
    In my view someone can credibly claim to know about reliability on a Porsche turbo engine when is pushed close to 600hp only if he runs an engine manufacturing concern that has tested several engines to that output level. To my knowledge even the largest tuners in Germany find this hard to do because of the R&D costs involved. They are simply glad to run their test on their customer base.
    So in a sense you know what you are talking about, because you are one of the testers on the matter!
    By this assumption, if on your 10th tuned engine you blow a crankcase I am right and you are wrong, because that means a one in ten chance to blow an engine in 50 to 100k kms which today is probably sub-par even by racing car standards. Until then, you just don't know. So see you in one million miles then! In the meantime don't expect me to partecipate into your test (which was the point of my posting): again, if I get an urge for 600hp I'll put my money where I also get a warranty and resale value.



    There have been several Manthey 700 bhp cars running for several years now, without a single problem. Dozens of RS tuning cars, all of them with 550 bhp or more, all of them without a hitch. Statistically, I'd say that is very commendable, especially with the way these cars are driven. Also, 600 bhp and resale value don't go together too well. The SL65s are taking huge hits, as do many oter cars with similar output levels (barring exotics, which usually aren't suitable for day-to-day use.

    Quote:

    On the issue of technical advancement instead, there I think I know what I am talking about. I know that a 6.2 v8 turning 8000rpm in a road car was absolutely science fiction until a couple of years ago. I know that a specific output of 100hp per liter (like on the m5 v10) on a large (5.0) engine had never been reached before on a large production car. I know that Bmw and Mercedes Amg have now developed and mass produce engines that reach these levels without being force fed. While I also know that a 50% to 100% of increase in output by force feeding the engine is no technological feat and was done even 50 years ago. Can you imagine what would happen if you turbocharged the Mercedes 6.2 or the Audi 4.2?
    I'd like you to consider the above and show me where the Porsche engine technology is superior. When last did you see a brand new engine developed by Porsche except maybe for the Carrera gt v10 (which is not mass produced and which gives an output marginally superior to that of my ML63, which my wife uses to go shopping and which has a torque deliver far flatter). When last did you see a new Porsche engine which broke new ground in terms of configuration, rpm, geometry, output, weight, sound, etc.
    C'mon even on the Cayenne they use an old slow Audi engine which couldn't touch the ML's 500hp if it wasn't for the force feeding and which even audi is discontinuing as obsolete!



    Now you are talking nonsense. The GT3 engine puts out over 415 bhp at 3.6 litres of displacement, which equals 115,3 bhp per litre (and even more in the GT3RS). Not to mention that it is a race-proven block, with a record of reliability, something which the Mercedes 6,2 and the BMW V10 have yet to demonstrate (and the BMW is failing at it so far). Also, ever heard of displacement? Sure, the Mercedes 6,2 can get 514 bhp, I'd expect it to. The Turbo, on the other hand, is a flat-6 3,6 litre engine. How you expect it to produce the same output with half the displacement is beyond me. I also don't need to mention that this is a Porsche 911, with the flat-6 being its trademark. They can't rig it with a V10 and call it a 911. Also, how many people can really use over 415 bhp, available from the GT3? Not many, I suspect. Regarding the ML63 and the Carrera GT comparison, are you serious? There is a 100 bhp difference between those two engines. How is that marginal? Regarding Porsche engine innovation, the flat-6 makes great souind (look at the GT3), but when it comes to turbocharged cars, I'm not sure what you expected. Turbochargers ALWAYS muffle the sound, so you can't be that knowledgeable about engines if you didn't know that. Also, innovation for the sake of innovation itself is useless. The VTG technology is a great innovation for turbocharged engines. Just because it doesn't turn at 8500 rpm and explodes like the M5 does, doesn't mean it's a bad engine. Regarding the Cayenne engine, how do you expect 4,5 litres to compete with 5,2 litres without force induction? Also, big and heavy cars are much better suited to forced induction engines than the high-revving nonsense which you have put forth. And I didn't know that the Porsche 4,5-litre V8 was made by Audi .

    Quote:

    And, please notice, I made these considerations even before my unit blew. I buy Porsche because the package AROUND the engine goes and handles better than most anything else on the road.
    Instead of calling me bitter or enraged consider I may be a discerning customers rather than a blind brand loyalist.
    And it's on technical grounds, rather than emotional ones, that I dismiss this technology as no longer cutting edge.
    Actually, if emotions were to be part of the equation, then my judgement of my car's engine would be even harsher, now that I think about it.
    Emotionally, my 997TT engine hardly keeps me awake at night but I am as excited as a baby about the r8 I ordered just because I heard the noise it makes on the web and it gave me shivers. Racy, deep, thrilling. Even my ml63 has a much better sound and rises in rpm with a better and more involving crescendo! Never, before or after getting the 997tt, I have been excited at the idea of turning the key. Yes, it covers ground as I am in a playstation (but that's more down to the package around the engine rather than the engine itself), but the engine is far from being exciting to run.



    Should've bought a GT3, not a turbocharged car...

    Quote:

    So, yes, let's leave emotions aside and let's talk about facts. Where do you think I got my facts wrong about Porsche being left behind in the engine innovation race? Where, exactly, don't I know what I am talking about?



    As long as their engines sound as good as the competition (GT3), consume less than the competition (Turbo - the BMW and MB engines are gas guzzlers) and perform as well as the competition (their entire line-up), I don't think they should concern themselves with innovation for bragging rights' sake.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Crash,
    Thanks for your pointing out that Manthey and RS run these outputs with no breakeages. Most tuners I talked to always told me that I would need to make a sacrifice in terms of reliability as a price to pay for the power increase, but it may well be the case that these guys got it down to perfection. But to me just overboosting a stock engine, that is remapping an ECU on unmodified internals (the original topic of this discussion), remains a dangerous game I will not play.

    Reaching over 100hp per liter on a small to medium sized racing or racing derived engine is nice but no mean engineering feat per se. The Alfa GTAs were pushing 170hp out of a 1.6 engine in the 60s, relatively reliably fot the time. Hondas have been reaching levels of output similar or superior to the gt3 since the late nineties, and I wouldn't be suprised if they have done so without breaking a single engine :-).
    But it gets a little bit more complicated when you try to do that on large sized engines because the masses in play make it exponetially more difficult to reach the high rpms needed and because the opposing foces inherent in the momentum of inertia generated by the larger engine internals gets exponetially stronger (mass by velocity squared). Much easier and cheaper to slap on a blower. That's why 500hp+ production naturally aspirated large capacity mills have been somewhat thin on the ground until now. And that's why it took some substantial investment for AMG to develop the new engine. The type of investment I lament seems to be missing at Porsche these days.

    The AMG v8 unit in the CL63 amg:
    -gives 525hp at 6800 rpm and 465 lb/ft of torque at 5200rpm
    -It's is made by Mercedes and installed on lardy sedans
    and SUVs.
    -It is said to be still at a relatively untuned state, Amg having publicly stated many times the engine has a lot of room to grow, and has a very broad and even spread of torque.

    The Carrera GT v10, on the other side:
    -gives 605hp at 8000rpm and 437 lb/ft of torque at 5750 rpm
    -That's 80 more hp than the output of the Amg units at a whopping 2250 more rpm.
    -It is developed by the leading performance car manufacturer in the world and could hardly be used on anything but an extreme performance car (cant really tow a boat behind your suv can't it, unless you want to drop the clutch at 5000rpm but then it'll be a short trip)
    -It has a relatively peaky delivery curve and I really doubt the Porsche engineers left a lot of hps on the table given this was installed on the no expense spared, showcase model.

    So what is the best technological feat in my opinion? The AMG unit of course. Am I banging my head? Yes, and very hard, against the wall. Because I tried, and I tried. But I can't see why I would want to sacrifice 2000rpm for 80hp more, and less torque. Even on a racing car perhaps, but certainly on a road car. And, in abstract terms, I can't see why the extra money I'd need to pay Porsche for one of these engines over the AMG unit shouldn't buy me a lot more than 80 hp if I were to put it on the AMG engine instead. No?
    Even more so, I can't see why I should see the Carrera GT engine as a superior achievement to the engine that is preparing to pull thousand of luxo suv and sendans, with long maintenance interval and low internal stresses, for years and years to come, and will likely do so without a glitch (c'mon you don't expect Mercedes will pull this thing from the market next year and shut AMG down, do you) with just 80 hp less and a flywheel the size of a coffe table.

    I agree with you, contemplating technological achievements per se is sterile and academic. But you too, as knowledgeable as you are about cars, must have that thought itching in your head: "what if". What if these guys at Porsche had spent a little of that money I gave them to do some aggressive R&D as the AMG people did. What would happen if you revved that AMG mill to 8000rpm peak delivery and put a smaller flywheel on it and even more agressive cams? 700hp? 650? OR, what if they did (will?) turbocharge it? 700hp? Am I really driving the most accomplished piece of automotive engineering on earth, or one built by an outfit where the guys in the handling department do such a good job that the others in charge of building engines (the expensive part, really) don't need to worry about it much? Am I being taken for a ride because, in the end, there are no alternatives and they know it?
    Because I do get these lingering doubts, you know.
    Maybe others don't, and that may be because I do bang my head too much. Other just leave their head alone, much easier. Just slap on this remapped ECU and you'll be king of the Autobahn again. Easy.
    Or may be it has more to do with Marketing. Yes, the best guys at Porsche might as well be the Marketing guys, not the handling wizards. They lull the customer base, so that they are very relaxed and feel no need whatsoever to bang their heads. Just take a couple of remapped ECUs and call me in the morning.
    These Marketing doctors indeed managed to convince you that the engine in the Cayenne Turbo is a brand new, totally Porsche engine. That's what the doctor said: it's a new engine. Nothing to do with the old generation of slow turning v8s that have been the standard high capacity engine until now at Audi (and similar to the old competing units at Mercedes and BMW). You know, those old low tech v8s that could only put out 350hp or so at Merc and Audi (the fanatics at bmw reached 400 but they were really pushing it, as usual) unless you slapped a super/turbo charger on*.
    Nothing to do with the RS6 mill at all. Nothing at all to do with the old, slow turning v8 dog that Audi had been peddling for almost 10 years. It just happens to have identical geometries and output levels, by chance. After all, all these noises about cross pollination between VW and Porsche are pure speculation. The rumors about sharing the Tuareg, Piech, the DSG, the Tiptronic and all that stuff, pure nonsense.

    Yes, the Marketing doctors at Porsche have the balls. I gotta go an idea: just put them in charge of engine design and there'll be no contest!


    *Kind of what they do in the US with the old mustang engines, you know. 300 hp unblown, 500 blown. Easy. You can do it in your garage, just bolt on a blower on the good'ol v8 and there ya go. 5000rpm max. Cool. It was the same in the 60s': I think it was more like 250hp unblown then, and 400 blown actually, but then technological progress came in, you know. Doesn't even cost you the 50k Porsche charges in price premium over a basic Cayenne. Just buy the blower by mail order and follow the instructions, what the heck!
    Maybe it's true, Porsche didn't get the Cayenne engine from Audi. It was a good old mustang V8 they copied. Ahh. Low tech, high tech. Who gives a damm, pass a budweiser. They'll buy the stupid car anyhow.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist, appreciate your provocative comments.

    Agree P seems lethargic w/tech innovations lately, w/the ever-delayed PDK and P's seeming inability to engineer an interesting exhaust note into the 997TT (the biturbo 65 has a charismatic exhaust note )

    But understand the need to balance marketing vs the engineers.....need produc vols to justify R&D costs....and to have produc vols need a product that appeals to the broad swath of the GT/sportscar-buying mkt, most of whom really just want a reputedly fast, youthful-image, prestigious-brand car that they can afford; get the wife to sign off on; and comfortably drive to the country club/restaurant....

    AMG does seem to be building some of world's most intriguing engines; isn't the chief engineer of the 63 motor the former chief engineer of the CGT motor? And my sense is steering/handling is a greater focus at AMG, as CL63 may prove/disprove in coming mths.

    Given the apparent steering/handling capabilities of the 4000lb 599, seems that latest-tech chassis/stab ctrl/brake/tire tech have prob made the track-time diffces btwn a one-dimensional, 3100lb GT3 and a GTish, 4000lb 599 microscopic, esp in hands of equally inept amateur drivers driving on less than optimal road surfaces....

    But F's 5K/yr produc vols best reveal the lims of low-produc in terms of poss lacking resources for class-leading safety engineering of advanced airbag systems; crumple zones; crashworthy seat strucs; extensive crash testing; fuel tank crashworthiness; and iterative real-world, crash-impact analysis, esp of F vs SUV, etc....IMO, safety (or perceived lack of safety) is a key rate-limiter of any car's usable performance in real-world conditions (even on derestricted AB) in hands of actual risk/reward-conscious owners/drivers.....

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    the GT3 engine is the same GT1 engine that is used in the turbo? off course adaptaded.... or TOTALLY DIFFERENT?
    if different.... wich one is stronger?like more resistent.

    Re: 997 TT Engine Seizure at 6000km!

    Porschist
    Some interesting stuff you've written here.
    I feel you are missing a point about Porsche engines compared to others (MB and Audi included) and that is their low hp ratings tend to "hang around" a bit longer than other manufacturers, this is why they tend to have better acceleration numbers, particularly at the top end and when the power is used extensively. Forgetting the crappy modular engines, the GT1 blocked stuff is just too well proven for Porsche to need to change it and it does deliver the goods on the road.
    You mention the CGT. For 50K Euros, RS Tuning will bolt on an exhaust, give you two new ECUs and you have 690hp @ 8000rpm - give them 150K Euro and they will bump the cc up to 6000 (still 300 less than AMG) and you have 730hp and 680NM - I don't think you can compare this motor with the AMG V8 ?

     
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