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    Sep 19, 2006 9:22:06 PM

    easy_rider911
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    How to do a heel toe downshift

    Here's a useful link for those new to this:

    http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html

    Sep 19, 2006 10:02:33 PM

    krown05
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    always wanted to try that, but never knew exactly how. Thanks Easyrider.

    Sep 19, 2006 10:37:07 PM

    Silver Bullet
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    Reply to: krown05

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    It neglects to say that depending on pedal position and foot anatomy, one may want to put toes (or rather, ball of foot) on brake and heel on gas pedal.

    A great place to practice is in a spot where you decelerate in a straight line (like at the end of a straight away on a track), so you can make the downshift while braking and have nothing else to worry about (except cars that might be behind you).

    Sep 19, 2006 10:42:31 PM

    polo
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    Reply to: krown05

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Thanks for sharing, it did refresh my memory as I learned, a while ago, the technique but never tried it. It is critical for a fast lap on a race track, and very satisfying.

    Sep 20, 2006 1:29:06 AM

    vtach88
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    Reply to: polo

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I've found that I have trouble performing this task unless the brake pedal is depressed a lot (ie: better for downshifting 2 gears vs. only 1) - maybe I need more practice with the car off...

    Sep 20, 2006 7:08:53 AM

    chapse
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    Reply to: vtach88

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I was told by a dealer to double clutch instad of heal and toe, i.e (and you to do this fast) push the cluch in, go to neautral. let the clutch out, blip the throttle to match speeds , push the clutch in , then change to your next gear, let the clutch out, so they tell me this also does one thing heal and toe does not , which is to match the transmisssion synchro speeds, saving on wear inside the transmission. - maybe true, maybe not.

    Sep 20, 2006 7:58:40 AM

    nick997
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    Reply to: chapse

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    There's a great example of how Michael Vergers does it in a Radical at the following link. Look for "Fancy Footwork" in the links section on the right hand side. Some of the other videos are great too - makes me tempted to ditch the 997 and take up Radical racing...

    http://www.brom.me.uk/

    Sep 20, 2006 8:01:25 AM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: chapse

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Chapse: double declutching and HT are not the same thing.
    Double declutching is an somewhat obsolete technique to help change gears if they are not synchronized and/or save the syncros in the gearbox.
    The purpose of HT is performance (and self satisfaction!)...

    Sep 20, 2006 8:07:35 AM

    Silver Bullet
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    Reply to: chapse

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    chapse said:
    I was told by a dealer to double clutch instad of heal and toe, i.e (and you to do this fast) push the cluch in, go to neautral. let the clutch out, blip the throttle to match speeds , push the clutch in , then change to your next gear, let the clutch out, so they tell me this also does one thing heal and toe does not , which is to match the transmisssion synchro speeds, saving on wear inside the transmission. - maybe true, maybe not.



    I think that's ridiculous. That's what synchros are for and your 997 has 3 for each of the first 2 gears. That is, synchros eliminate the need for dble clutching. Try double clutching on a race track and you'll see how ridiculous it is. The only thing double clutching is good for is teaching the concept and skills for throttle blipping. Perfect throttle blipping including during heel/toe means absolutely minimal wear on clutch and tranny. Dble clutching is massive overkill.

    Sep 20, 2006 9:14:34 AM

    Steve R
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Love doing Heal and Toe, although mine is more Toe and Heal!

    The Porsche is excellent for it and it makes a great noise!

    Sep 20, 2006 9:15:19 AM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: Steve R

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I hope it is more toe and heel :-) why would you hurt yourself?

    Sep 20, 2006 11:03:14 AM

    GA997S
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    At 6'-7" 260 lb. w/ size 13's the only option is toe/toe. Works great. Half the time I'll drive this way (even non-aggressive) to hear the PSE and give me a little more life on the pads.

    Sep 20, 2006 12:42:20 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: Silver Bullet

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Quote:
    chapse said:
    I was told by a dealer to double clutch instad of heal and toe, i.e (and you to do this fast) push the cluch in, go to neautral. let the clutch out, blip the throttle to match speeds , push the clutch in , then change to your next gear, let the clutch out, so they tell me this also does one thing heal and toe does not , which is to match the transmisssion synchro speeds, saving on wear inside the transmission. - maybe true, maybe not.



    I think that's ridiculous. That's what synchros are for and your 997 has 3 for each of the first 2 gears. That is, synchros eliminate the need for dble clutching. Try double clutching on a race track and you'll see how ridiculous it is. The only thing double clutching is good for is teaching the concept and skills for throttle blipping. Perfect throttle blipping including during heel/toe means absolutely minimal wear on clutch and tranny. Dble clutching is massive overkill.



    I agree - the requirement for double de-clutching has been obsolete since the introduction of syncromesh gearing. However performing a combination of double de-clutching and heel and toeing, occasionally, is a great excercise to perfect your overall co-ordination.

    Heel and toeing is, IMHO, only essential when driving spiritedly, although practice around town can't do any harm.

    Sep 20, 2006 1:46:29 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    HT is for braking and downshifting concurrently, so there is no lapse or time wasted in the middle of a bend between braking-in to the corner, and powering-out. It allows for seamless transition from slowing to accelerating and/or throttle modulation in a bend.

    Double clutching has nothing to do with heel & toe, and is only useful if you're driving a farm tractor, or a car with wooden-spoked wheels.

    I've got big feet, so I "toe and toe", which means toe-ing the brake with my big piggie, and toe-ing the throttle with my little piggie. My heel hangs out below, cheering the piggies on...

    Sep 20, 2006 2:51:32 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: 69bossnine

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've got big feet, so I "toe and toe", which means toe-ing the brake with my big piggie, and toe-ing the throttle with my little piggie. My heel hangs out below, cheering the piggies on...



    I presume that's when you're on your way to market.

    Trouble starts when big piggy slips off brake and joins little piggy and the other three on the throttle - thats called 'Miss Piggy'.

    Sep 20, 2006 4:04:47 PM

    Hurst
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I'm so fortunate that I was taught manual at a young age by petrolhead motorfanatics.
    Lesson 1 was shifting. Lesson 2 was toe-heeling. Lesson 3 was oversteering. Lesson 4 was drifting

    Sep 20, 2006 4:36:42 PM

    Bill (Chicago)
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    H&T is not necessarily how most race car drivers downshift, nor the best way to downshift. if you are going from 4th to 3rd as an example after braking you put the car in neutral WITHOUT using the clutch, blip the gas, depress the clutch, select 3rd, and release the clutch. it is much easier to match revs with the trans in neural, since the pinion gear, i believe it is called, is also being spun up. if you blip the gas with the clutch in the pinion gear will need to spin up before it will engage after you release the clutch. is it modified version of a double clutch, but since you do not use the clutch to put the car in neural it takes the same time as a H&T downshift.

    Sep 20, 2006 5:58:06 PM

    Bending
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    Reply to: chapse

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Chapse
    with hell toe you are >braking< and changing gears. Double clutching was basically only used to facilitate gear shifts in gearboxes with bad synchro. DC is however still often used with Oldtimer cars.

    Sep 20, 2006 11:16:30 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: Bending

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I wish people would read threads right the way through before replying - there's too much unnecessary repetition.

    Sep 20, 2006 11:45:55 PM

    GA997S
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've got big feet, so I "toe and toe", which means toe-ing the brake with my big piggie, and toe-ing the throttle with my little piggie. My heel hangs out below, cheering the piggies on...



    I presume that's when you're on your way to market.

    Trouble starts when big piggy slips off brake and joins little piggy and the other three on the throttle - thats called 'Miss Piggy'.



    good one!

    Sep 21, 2006 12:00:54 AM

    GA997S
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    Reply to: Bill (Chicago)

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:
    H&T is not necessarily how most race car drivers downshift, nor the best way to downshift. if you are going from 4th to 3rd as an example after braking you put the car in neutral WITHOUT using the clutch, blip the gas, depress the clutch, select 3rd, and release the clutch. it is much easier to match revs with the trans in neural, since the pinion gear, i believe it is called, is also being spun up. if you blip the gas with the clutch in the pinion gear will need to spin up before it will engage after you release the clutch. is it modified version of a double clutch, but since you do not use the clutch to put the car in neural it takes the same time as a H&T downshift.


    I'll race you any day! There's too much time wasted coasting with your method. If you think about what you wrote, you'll realize that it's almost impossible to do on a track. You are right about most race car drivers not using h&t...you wouldn't use it on an oval track.

    Sep 21, 2006 12:05:17 AM

    JP66 Offline
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    Reply to: GA997S

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    GA997S said:
    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I've got big feet, so I "toe and toe", which means toe-ing the brake with my big piggie, and toe-ing the throttle with my little piggie. My heel hangs out below, cheering the piggies on...



    I presume that's when you're on your way to market.

    Trouble starts when big piggy slips off brake and joins little piggy and the other three on the throttle - thats called 'Miss Piggy'.



    good one!



    I am 6'3" and wear a size 14 shoe. Do any of you wear driving shoes? I need to find a narrow driving shoe that allows a little more room by the pedals.

    Sep 21, 2006 12:33:32 PM

    69bossnine
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    Reply to: JP66

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I'm size 12, but with a wide foot. No, I don't wear driving shoes. I don't find the pedals to be terribly crowded in my 911, and I rarely ever tangle-up or mis-step down there (I actually can't remember the last time I ever did). Even in my Red Wing clod-hopper boots, I don't have any issue. Where I run into problems is on the occassions that I drive somebody else's car with after market aluminum "racing" pedals that are oversized. Talk about a paradox. Those are only for "racing" if you've got feet like a geisha. If you're a confident, calm and controlled driver, you shouldn't need boat paddles for pedals.

    Anyhow, I don't have a suggestion for ya. Your feet are bigger than mine.

    Sep 21, 2006 3:44:14 PM

    Bill (Chicago)
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    Reply to: GA997S

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    GA997s - Maybe the confusion is that I should have said while braking not after braking. It takes the sametime as a H&T and is easier to match revs. When is you next race?

    Sep 21, 2006 9:46:19 PM

    GA997S
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    Reply to: Bill (Chicago)

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    Bill (Chicago) said:
    GA997s - Maybe the confusion is that I should have said while braking not after braking. It takes the sametime as a H&T and is easier to match revs. When is you next race?


    O.K. makes more sense but if you do it while braking, then isn't it heel/toe? And by "much easier to match revs" do you mean easier to synchronize (engage the gears when revs are close) or actually get the engine speed matched w/ tranny output speed? When you blip the throttle you're just waiting for the rpm to reach a speed that matches what's required to sync. You only guess at what will get you close and wait while applying force to the shifter which at some point drops in gear. Timing and amount of blip are adjusted with experience. Of course I could be completely wrong and not thinking straight because I just got 6th row floor Who tickets!

    Sep 22, 2006 5:13:02 PM

    colonel
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    Reply to: GA997S

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I'm able to do "heel and toe" at the track, but not in normal street driving because the brake pedal is too high. However, in track condition, the pedals works perfectly for heel and toe...

    Sep 22, 2006 5:25:18 PM

    JAMS
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    Reply to: colonel

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Here is a great demonstration of heel and toe shifting by a pro...
    http://www.aqualifeleasing.co.uk/images/GT3RS%20Steve%20Brands.wmv

    Nov 24, 2006 10:41:09 AM

    easy_rider911
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    Reply to: JAMS

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    I've been trying to practice this since I got my 997S. Without heel & toe downshifts, the journey is not as smooth! I keep practising. Hopefully, one day I will get there!

    Nov 24, 2006 12:10:07 PM

    amazon
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Let's say Frank is driving his '01 Volkswagen Passat around town. He is approaching a right-hand corner while in fourth gear at 50 mph. He is going too fast to make it around the corner safely, so he starts braking until he drops the Passat's speed to about 25 mph. Frank sees on the tachometer that his engine revs are dropping too low, so he pushes in the clutch as he goes around the corner. As Frank thinks about accelerating, he realizes that the Passat is still in fourth gear, which isn't suitable for strong acceleration at such slow speeds. So he moves the shifter from fourth to second gear, lets out the clutch and motors away."


    I can't heel toe but I certainly don't shift gears like this frank does. And I hope everyone here can change gear a bit faster than that and not end-up with the clutsh pushed in during the turn. I sincenrely hope so.

    I never end-up in the middle of a turn with no gear in, clutch pushed in, and waiting like an id*iot to get out of the turn to start thinking in wich gear I want to be next.

    You break before the turn. Push in the clutch almost at the same time as breaking, change gear really fast, and in the turn, I'm already back on the throtle. So I don't really see the need of heel and toe. But I've never driven on a racetrack. Don't know.

    Nov 24, 2006 1:19:32 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: How to do a heel toe downshift

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    I've been trying to practice this since I got my 997S. Without heel & toe downshifts, the journey is not as smooth! I keep practising. Hopefully, one day I will get there!



    It is a bit tricky on the 997 due the position of pedal, but with sport chrono on, you need to apply less movement on the gas pedal to blip the throttle...
    At least this is my experience so far
     
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